true That's rather debatable Um latin america is hardly at peace if you call latin america at peace you must also call the islamic world at peace if your using the same standards. no war's but it is rife with violence. Your comments on Islam wouldn't bely that. while I have no doubt that you hate all three I dare say your using rhetoric that you would think twice about using for the other two. maybe I can attest to neither for that. because the other side showed respect toward them. if they had done with what your doing with Islam treating as inherently evil and bad no peace would have occurred. for their to be peace their must be an understanding and an aknowledgment of the wrongs which were committed which seems to be the very thing your arguing against doing.
I see no greater tendency to speak plainly about any of the other significant religions around. I don't think I have ever heard the Army of God, the KKK, or Israel's founding paramilitary outfits, referred to as Christian or Jewish organizations, respectively, on a major newscast. Even the Catholic and Protestant sides in Ireland were not described as warring Christian factions very often.
Doesn't anything take to extreme lead to violence? This can be found in secular movements/philosophies as well and isn't exclusive to religious organizations, movements, philosophies and etc. Not only this it isn't intolerant to believe that al-Qur'an is the final and perfected message of God nor is it saying that other religions can't also teach the truth as well. To link racism with the message of perfected message of Islam is absurd and this argument is at best, laughable. Do you think I don't know about the historical persecution by Sunni Muslims? Do you know nothing of Shi'i history? 11 out of 12 of our Imams were assasinated/martyred. But again, this doesn't hint to an inherent problem within Islam but rather an inherent problem in man. Not to mention, you're not taking into account tribal practices and politics among other secular motivations. Not to mention this goes in direct opposition to narrations in Sahih Bukhari which say the following:
I agree. Here I disagree. First of all, theistically, it isn't the "Final" revelation. How else to you explain the revelations given to the Mormon Christians? Or the Baha'i Muslims? Or the Ahmadiyya Muslims? Or the John Frumians? Not to mention all the other religions that have pantheon of Gods and Goddesses whom they are in continual communication with. Well? How? Secondly, rationally you have no idea at all of the day the Qur'an was completed. Your guess is about as good as 1 in 365. Your guess for even the month is 1 in12. You don't even know the year. You only THINK you have the original Qur'an and that this is important because someone told you to think as much. If someone had told you that it wasn't important, then you'd think that. Thirdly, As a moral guide is there anything at all in the Qur'an not found in the Bible or other religious books? If so, what is it? Does this teaching require you to simultaneously believe the book is Perfect? Fourthly, saying the Qur'an is Perfect is a logical fallacy as well as admission that it's not. Which I don't expect you to understand. why haven't you told me something you learned from this Oh So Perfect Qur'an of yours? Something you learned that is such an utterly enlightened position on the Human Condition as not to be found in any other religious text? Well? YOU have LEARNED something havn't you? I mean, geeee, you have this Perfect Text sitting in your lap. ++ You haven't actually learned a damn thing have you? Isn't THAT odd Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! +++ Let me guess, what you learned was that the Qur'an is the ONLY Perfect Final Revelation and Mohammad was Allah's Messenger in this endeavor Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Fifth, it doesn't mean anything to say something is a "Perfect Revelation" for all cultures, every single human and for all time. Define what you mean. It's like saying this is the Perfect Painting. Or this is the Perfect Flavor of IceCream. Lots of people read the Qur'an and think it's silly. Some people look at a painting and think it's idiotic. People read the Qur'an and think it looks like a rushed job that is far from even reaching even it's own literary potential. Just like some people don't like Chocolate IceCream. Sixth, which Qur'an is Perfect? There are different Qur'an with slightly different text. Tell me which one of these is perfect and why it's more Perfect than the others. This will be interesting. See, you're so bigoted you can't even see how a person who is a non-Muslim reads this and thinks it's about as enlightened as a 12 year old rant. How about this: “A Muslim is a person whom all humans are safe from his tongue and hands.” But because of Abdullah Bin Omar (voice of for Mohammad) was like our friend Mr WASP - it never occurred to him to consider the wider implications and to teach that all humans (not just Muslims) should be safe. Just Muslims?!?! This is just so typical of Muslims and their US -vs- THEM attitude. It's really is the perfect quote on why teaching the Qur'an is Perfect leads to intolerant attitudes. Us Muslims, You Infidels. Just great. So deep. Reminds me of this saying: A Real Man treats his Woman right.
I don't know how long you've been a member of SciForums or which subforums you spend your time on, but you obviously have not read very many of my posts. My criticism of Christianity's preposterous model of the universe, its subjugation of women, its current denial of science and specifically evolution, its doctrinal encouragement of a feeling of superiority over non-Christians and even Christians of slightly different sects, its nearly non-stop holy wars, its thousand-year persecution of Jews, and its directive to convert everyone to Christianity by any means possible, are downright inflammatory. And I'm the person who coined the name Religious Redneck Retard Revival for the resurgence of bonehead-fundamentalist Christianity in the USA during the past thirty years. There isn't much proselytism or even defense of Judaism on this website so I haven't had much cause to criticize that religion, but I've been a fierce critic of Zionism and the policies of the modern State of Israel.
Appeal to Authority. If the teacher is genuine and the lessons are truly worthwhile then He or She doesn't have to say: A God told me so and therefor it's so. THAT is a Logical Fallacy . It's admitting that you're not really genuinely interested in teaching a damn thing and what you have to say isn't really worth the breath you waste saying it. Telling people your teachings are "Perfect". Well now, you've really given up haven't you now? If a real live Mohammad Patriarch existed outside of the Qur'anic protagonist he'd probably roll in his grave to see what and an ass people have made of him and whatever message he was trying to get across. It's obvious the teachings were tossed to the side in favor of Caliphate lineage and rights of succession. I suspect in the coming years we'll learn more.
Charles Krauthammer is a Zionist [winner of the Guard of Zion award] He's part of the Jewish neocon machinery that engineered the war on Iraq [since everything is down to religion, it must also be so for Charlie here] http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=David_Project Quoting him on anything about Islam or Muslims is like quoting Himmler on Judaism and Jews. The “Goldfarb-Krauthammer wing” of American Jews- that celebrates and believes in government torture, endorses the pulverization of Gazans with glee, and wants to attack Iran - is far more dangerous to Americans than some poor sod losing it when face to face with American policy and the role of the volunteer crusaders. Anyone who supports ethnic cleansing for Jews while living in a non-Jewish country is hardly in a position to comment intelligently on any religion. As for lack of candor, actions speak louder than words. Americans invented the war of terror which gave them the "right" to bomb remote defenseless Muslim countries for eight years and counting with volunteers lining up to take part in this modern crusade. Thats hardly what I call circumloquacious. What Americans lack candor about is why they feel it necessary to determine how the rest of the world should live [or not live as is generally the case] He also wrote about the international Jew and his impact on global politics: and his opinion of the colonies was nothing to write home about: You seriously need better role models - you can do better than Jewish neocons and racist warmongerers.
Really. I never knew Muhammad was trying to make a logical argument for God. He was making a statement. By the way the 'logical fallacy' of appealing to authority is considered a fallacy only because in a logical discussion there is no recognized authority simply because one can not expect any individual to have exhausted all possible logical reasons for something- thus taking any 'authority' with a grain of salt. The same can not be said of God, because by definition God is the authority and can be considered the authority in all logical senses. Or perhaps whenever you write 2 + 2 = 4, you always present a logical proof for that to be the case? Who 'defines' the value of 2? The creator of the system has the right to define the variables within a system- God being the creator of everything has the exclusive right to define any and everything. Perhaps you should study why these 'logical fallacies' are fallacies in the first place. If the discussion topic is about X which is created by Y then it is not a logical fallacy to say that X = X because Y said X = X. If Y is mathematics and X = 2 then it is not a logical fallacy to say X = 2 because Y says X = 2. If it is a 'logical fallacy' then it seems all computers are built upon illogical logarithms, as they never ask the question why the code defined is defined to be the way it is defined. That is, stating a fact is a not a logical fallacy. If you don't like the defined variables of a system, then you can create your own separate system with your own variables but you can not call another system's definitions illogical based upon your own definitions of your system. That would be comparing apples and oranges- which is definitely illogical. Stating a fact = 'not genuinely' interested in teaching something is, I would claim, a very illogical argument which you just made. Peace be unto you Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
This is your own subjective opinion which makes you disagree with Islam. I'm well aware of the other supposed revelations purported by other faiths but this doesn't invalidate the claims of Islam in the least. They may be the prophets of other religions but they are not considered prophets within Islam seeing as Muhammad (saw) was khatim an-Nabiyin ("seal of the prophets"). This doesn't mean however that certain individuals can not also teach the truth. The Baha'i faith for example, in particular shares a lot in common with Islam. But as far being legitmate revelations of God, that's debatable but this doesn't imply hatred or anything, it's simply disagreeing in terms of theology. Where are you getting these figures? From your ass? Also, you're making moronic assumptions, such as "that's it important because someone told you to think as much." Do we really have to resort to these ridiculous and childish stereotypical insults? I mean, seriously. The text we have today was standardized and accepted under the Uthman caliphate. We also have a time period of 650-56. But all of this seems irrelevant in terms of the debate at hand. Well, to put it bluntly, no shit Sherlock. It's no secret that Islam is the continuation of a chain of prophets going all the way back to prophet Adem. It doesn't take a genuis to see that Islam is also the continuation of the message of the prophets which include prophet Isa or Jesus Christ (as) and those found in the Tanakh such as prophet Musa (as) or Moses and prophet Ibrahim (as) or Abraham. In fact, in Islam all of these prophets are considered Muslim. The title "Muslim," itself means "one who submits to God." First, of all, that's not what this debate was originally about nor have you asked me to teach you the lessons from al-Qur'an until this post nor do I possess the title to be able to do this with any authority. I am not a teacher. Secondly, what motivation would I have to do so? You're operating from the assertion, that Islamic philosophy and religion is inherently wrong thus if you automatically think that Islam and Islamic philosophy is wrong, what's my motivation to discuss this with you? There is none. Plus, this is just silly and isn't a legitmate argument or point. If, you're going to answer your own questions on my behalf, what's the point of even continuing this conversation? This is nonsense. No, it's just your intolerance towards Muslims and Islam blinds you from the over-all message of Islam. I have already posted a quote by Imam Ali (as) whom (according to Shi'a Islam) the first rightful sucessor to Muhammad (saw) and whom was a member of ahl al-Bayt and also related to Muhammad (saw) himself. Even Sunnis consider him to be the fourth and final of the rashidun ("the rightly guided caliphs"). Thus, it's easy to say, he is very highly regarded figure within Islam across the bored. He, himself, said "a person is either your brother in faith or your equal in humanity." I have even posted an entire surah (109) dedicated to the unbelievers which is apparent by it's title al-Kafirun which means "the unbelievers." You're bizzare and warped interpretation of the text doesn't take away from the true message of the surah. A Muslim should treat every human being, Muslim or non-Muslim, with respect and dignity as they are a creation of Allah (saw). I have already stated this numerous times. Do you have short term memory loss? Can you not retain all of this simple collection of information. Even in surah 60 it instructs Muslims to treat non-Muslims with generosity, kindness and so on. "It may be the God will create love between you and your enemies. God is all powerful and God is forgiving, ever merciful. God does not forbid you from being kind and acting justly towards those who did not fight over faith with you, nor expelled your from your homes. God indeed loves those whom are just."-Al-Qur'an, al-Mumtahanah, verses 7-8. The Muslim scholar Shihab al-Din al-Qarafi, said the following in relation to the surah: "…gentleness towards the weak, providing clothing to cover them, and soft speech. This must be done with affection and mercy, not by intimidation or degradation. Furthermore, tolerating the fact that they may be bothersome neighbors whom you could force to move, but you do not out of kindness towards them, not out of fear or financial reasons. Also, praying they receive guidance and [thus] join the ranks of the blessed with external reward, advising them in all wordily and spiritual matters, protecting their reputation if they are exposed to slander, and defending their property, families, rights, and concerns. Assisting them against oppression and getting them their rights."-Al-Qarafi, "al-Furooq," vol 3, p. 15. Here is also another verse from al-Qur'an which stresses the sanctity of all human life: "…if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people."-Al-Qur'an, al-Ma'idah, verse 32. or what about surah 6, verse 151: “…take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom."-Al-Qur'an, al-An'am, verse 151. or surah 5, verse 8: "And do not let ill-will towards any folk incite you so that you swerve from dealing justly. Be just; that is nearest to heedfulness"-Al-Qur'an, al-Ma'idah, verse 8. or surah 16, verse 90: "God commands justice and doing good and giving to relatives. And He forbids indecency and doing wrong and tyranny. He warns you so that hopefully you will pay heed."-Al-Qur'an, an-Nahl, verse 90. or surah 2, verse 256: "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things."-Al-Qur'an, al-Baqarah, verse 256. or surah 49, verse 13: "O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."-Al-Qur'an, al-Hujurat, verse 13. Had you actually any real knowledge of Islam you would have been well aware of this message within Islam. A Muslim is suppose to just and kind to all peoples, not just Muslims. Infact in Islam, we are suppose to help the needy, the opressed, the poor, the orphans. Admit it, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about and you don't know anything about Islam. Had you known anything about Islam you would know why this whole argument is moronic and not true, in the least. See the above verses and quotes. I also have no motivation really to respond to your other "points," (if they can even be called as such) considering this post has fully demonstrated to me that you have not a damn clue what you are talking about and don't know anything about Islam. It's pointless to discuss this with, especially considering not only are you, by default, against Islam but also your arguments are moronic and childish. I mean, step up.
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Because of the notion there must be a Perfect Revelation Baha'i are violently oppressed in their own country by Muslims. This is a fact. The Baha'i have Prophets going all the way back from Adam too. According to you logic, this then means Baha'i Faith is ..... true? Isn't this lesson taught in ALL religions Ja'far? Doesn't polytheism and Buddhism teach exactly the same lessons? Huh Ja'far? If so, then accordingly, there's no need for an intolerant meme like Perfect Revelation to instruct people to be kind to other humans. So, why perpetuate the meme "Perfect Revelation"?
Unfortunately for Bahai's, the Muslims have always contended the end of Prophethood, the same can not be said of either Judaism or Christianity from their scriptures. But an argument for the end of prophetic tradition with Muhammad can be made from the Quran, and has been made from the Quran throughout Islamic history. That essentially leaves out the Baha'i prophet from that chain if the argument is about the chain to Adam. Peace be unto you Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
According to this logic, we can also suppose there are two Supreme Beings: A God Thor and a Goddess Sophia. By definition Sophia is the authority and can be considered the authority in all logical senses. Now, lets suppose there's a Theologian. He wants to teach people that Slavery is unjust. I had a "revelation" from Sophia telling me that Slavery is unjust. Therefor Slavery is unjust. See, that's Appealing to Authority which is a Logical Fallacy. It's that simple.
No its not a logical fallacy because by definition you have already says 'authority in all logical senses'. You can't say someone logically the absolute authority, and then say this is a logical fallacy. You have to work with definitions you are given of a system. And like I said.. Appealing to authority is a fallacy because the authority is not God or claimed to be one who knows everything to be considered an 'authority' in the first place. Peace be unto you Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
The Baha'i got around that with the notion of a New Adam. The Qur'an says nothing about there not being a New Adam. It should also be noted that Ahmadiyya interpret the Qur'an to show that Mohammad was not the Last Prophet. Do you agree that you don't need to teach the meme Perfect Revelation in order to teach the moral lesson? Buddhists, Shinto, Native Amercians, Hindu, Mormons etc... all of these people teach the same moral lesson: Be kind to other humans. As a matter of fact, it seems Buddhists make Peace and Self-Inquiry as central themes in their religion where as Muslims seem to put Perfect Revelation and Last Prophet as their central theme.
Its not a matter of 'need'. A message from God by definition has to be perfect in its revelation- perhaps not in its interpretation. Peace be unto you Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
It is a matter of necessity. Do you agree that Buddhists, Shinto, Native Amercians, Hindu, Mormons etc... all of these people teach the same moral lesson as are found in the Qur'an?
Do you agree the general purpose of religion to to teach people a certain way to live on top of other things. Then why wouldn't there be overlap? Peace be unto you Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
No, it's not. Just because Muslims do X doesn't mean that Islam accepts X action nor does it mean it's in accordance with Islamic jurisprudence. Also, it doesn't mean that the root cause of the persecution of Baha'is by Muslims is the belief that al-Qur'an is the final perfected message of God. I have already posted numerous verses, surahs, quotes and so on explaining how Muslims are suppose to treat non-Muslims and what Islam says about ahl al-kitab. Do you even have a proper understand of the Baha'i faith or it's history? The Baha'i faith came out of Shi'i movement in Persia in the 1800's which came to be known as Babism. It was from Shi'i (read: ithna ashari) Islam that Babism came out of, that is the religious context of the movement. In Shi'a Islam it is believed that Imam al-Mahdi will come back and he plays an important role in Shi'i eschatology. Sayyid 'Ali-Muhammad Shirazi or the Bab, a title meaning "the gate," said that he was al-Qa'im/Imam al-Mahdi. Not to mention other strange beliefs which denied the accepted doctrine of Shi'a Islam, such as the Occultation of Imam al-Mahdi. In Sunni Islam, the concept of al-Mahdi is disputed, some even reject the doctrine of al-Madhi all together. I don't even have to mention Baha'u'llah. There is obvious theological differences between Islam and the Baha'i faith however it could be argued that the Baha'is would fall under ahl al-kitab. Infact ahl al-kitab was later extended to the Hindus, Sikhs, Zoroastrians and Mandeans. There is common ground between Islam and the Baha'i faith but there is also points where we differ and it's for this reason that the Baha'i faith can't be considered true or perfect, to the Muslim. God damnt, how many times do I have to say this? I have already stated numerous times that other religions can also teach the truth however this doesn't mean that I, as a Muslim, have to accept other and often conflicting theologies. Nor does that mean I still can't say al-Qur'an is the final and perfected message of God. You just don't get it Scott, you don't. Scotty don't. Scotty n'est pas. The Muslim belief that Islam is the final perfected message of God is not an intolerant or bigoted belief. All it means is that we have theological differences between us Muslims and non-Muslims. This doesn't mean however (AGAIN, for the 1,000,000th time) that we don't have common ground, that they can't teach the truth or that Muslims should treat non-Muslims in a unjust, opressive, hurtful, mean, nasty, blah, etc. way. How hard is it to understand this?
I didn't say there wouldn't be overlap. Of course there is. Are there ANY moral lessons, that you know of (or would think), that are taught in the Qur'an but not taught in the other religions (polytheistic Shinto, Hindu, Native American nature religions or Christianity, Judaism, Baha'i faiths or Buddhist faith)?
OK here's one of your verses and it's a very common verse. All a Muslim has to do is say because Baha'i (or whomever) are converting Muslims from Islam to Baha'i faith they are spreading mischief in the land and now they are fair game to be persecuted and even murdered. As a matter of fact, that is exactly what is happening to many Baha'i in Iran and why Iranians escape to places like Israel or the USA where they can practice their faith without fear of Muslim oppression and persecution. BUT that was not my point. My point was that there's no need to teach people "Final Revelation" in order to teach them moral behavior. The reason I know this is because I know Shinto that are every bit as moral as you and the idea of a "Final Revelation" doesn't even make sense in their religion (which is based on Nature). They don't have Prophets so there's nothing that needs "Revealing" and there is no One God to give a Prophecy. They do have Gods, but, these Dieties are set in an entirely different Religious Paradigm. Does that make more sense now? Perhaps I wasn't clear enough the first time. I'm not saying you have to BE a Shinto. Only acknowledge that it's possible to teach the same moral lessons WITHOUT also teaching anything about a Perfect Final Revelation or Prophecy. These are TWO separate concepts. Just out of curiosity. Suppose a person were to convert Muslims to Satanism. Is THAT spreading mischief in the land? What about if some Muslims are pushing for a secular democracy to replace a Theocracy and in doing so calling for the removal of the Ayatollah. Is THAT spreading mischief in the land? -- -- I know quite a few Baha'i. I know some Baha'i personal views on the Qur'an. They think the Qur'an is flawed. Apparently under Islam it's perfectly fine to teach people the Bible is flawed but is "spreading mischief" when you teach people the Qur'an is flawed. Which is why they no longer live in Iran. It seems we may agree? You think the other religions teach the same moral truths as are found in the Qur'an? Yes? You seem to think YES they do. Is that correct? OK, let me make sure I see you correctly. For Christians the Bible is the Perfected Message of God. A large number of conservative Christians teach their kids that Mohammad was possessed by Satan and that the Qur'an are the words of Satan. Muslims have been tricked and will burn in Hell for rejecting Jesus. Now, you are saying that these are just theological differences between Christians and non-Christians. There is absolutely NOTHING AT ALL intolerant in teaching that Islam is an inferior Satanic Religion and that Mohammad was possessed by Satan (whereby he had Satanic Revelations which is the Qur'an)? Of course these Christians don't teach to harm Muslims, only that their faith is Satanic and Good Christians should pray for and try to peacefully convert Muslims to God's True Faith: Christianity. I just want to make sure - you're 100% A-OK with Christians teaching this "theological difference" :shrug: Because I find it intolerant, but, maybe we can just agree to disagree on that one. I suppose it's just a difference of opinion on what constitutes being tolerant. See, I think it would be tolerant if Christians taught there were many paths to Heaven and perhaps the Islamic one was just as True as the Christian one. Seems to me that this would be a better approach - especially considering we live in an ever smaller multicultural world. It just seems more respectful to me as well. Like I said, maybe we just see things differently on this one :shrug: Out of curiosity, do you think the Bible is flawed?
