Is the neo-Darwinian view of evolution dead and outdated?

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by M. Helsdon, Nov 3, 2012.

  1. M. Helsdon Banned Banned

    "So is there any evidence for "Orthogenesis","Neo-Lamarckism" and "Process Structuralism""

    I will give evidence for neo-Lamarckism and Saltationism, the others mechanisms later.

    Evidence for Saltationism

    Evidence of Repeated and Independent Saltational Evolution in a Peculiar Genus of Sphinx Moths

    Saltational evolution of trunk segment number in centipedes

    The proper place of hopeful monsters in evolutionary biology

    Saltational evolution: hopeful monsters are here to stay

    Evidence for neo-Lamarckism

    An overview of some of the evidence can be found here:

    Inheritance of susceptibility: Lamarckism revisited

    Lamarckian evolution of the giant Mimivirus in allopatric laboratory culture on amoebae

    Spatial structure and Lamarckian adaptation explain extreme genetic diversity at CRISPR locus

    Acquired Traits Can Be Inherited Via Small RNAs

    Inheritance of acquired traits in plants: Reinstatement of Lamarck

    A Comeback for Lamarckian Evolution?

    Other mechanisms

    Evolution of adaptive phenotypic traits without positive Darwinian selection
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
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  3. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    I'm not making any claims. You are. At the moment I'm citing Darwin, and asking you to pose a question of science.

    I'm not worried about how I look. I'm attempting to direct this to an actual question of science, if you can formulate one. Drop this stupid "isms" thing and I'll stop addressing your politics. It was you who cited talkorigins. I think readers can decide for themselves the intelligence of doing that while denying you have a religious agenda.

    Grumpy is on top of his game when it comes to science. He's probably waiting for you to enter into a science question, as am I.
    Nope, all the burden is on you. In fact, you still have the burden of relating this thread to science.

    You keep assuming what I have and have not read. So far you are still demonstrating ignorance of Darwin. That makes Koonin et al moot. You need to lay a predicate.

    So? Is that the whole point of your thread? Ok. Then the answer is "so what?" Case closed.

    Huh? No, I will not. I'm citing Charles Darwin. You need to do the same. That particular summary happens to be from a typical biology course. I'll look for it later. It doesn't matter. It's Darwin in a nutshell. You really need to familiarize yourself with Darwin, and you need to launch any discussion of evolution from the position of his work.

    That's not the point. You went to a site specifically dedicated to summarized the debate about Creationism. The question is: why? You're trying to claim this is not a question for the politico-religious arena.

    I'm not going to let you get away with that. If you're going to claim what Darwin said, you need to quote Darwin. You can't add anecdotes that he never said and leave it like that. That's dishonest.

    We don't care too much about opinions. This is a science thread, so let's go to the objective questions and the best evidence without all the grandstanding. If you want to grandstand, take this to a politics or religion forum.

    Let me try a different tack since you're being so stubborn. I will pose the question of science that provoked Darwin's discovery of evolution:

    Explain the presence of the finches Darwin found on Galapagos. What inferences can be drawn from this, according to best evidence? Tell us how this shaped Darwin's thinking, and the people in his immediate circle of influence. How have those inferences changed in light of better evidence, or have they changed at all?

    Unless you refer to nature, not political stuff, you're not talking science. You're not even talking about science.
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  5. M. Helsdon Banned Banned

    You are acting like a loon. Talk.Origins is the leading anti-creationist website in the world, it is a website to LEARN about the evidence for evolution. How does have a religious agenda? If anything their agenda is to get rid of the religious loons infesting science. The link I quoted from was written by a professor of evolutionary biology! Yet you reject it? I think it is you who is acting religious over these matters.

    No, the burden is on you. I have just given another 10 or so SCIENTIFIC papers showing evidence for saltation and neo-Lamarckism at work and how evolution has moved beyond neo-Darwinism. The burden is on you to provide evidence on the contrary. So far you have cited 0 scientific publications to back up any of your wild claims.

    Ok you have just admitted you have no interest in quoting or referencing any scientific publications. Your agenda is obviously anti-science. Please do not post on this thread anymore.

    This is hiliarious... are you a troll? I have cited over 20 scientific peer reviewed papers proving my points and all you dish out in your own personal opinions. As I said please don't post again! I have put you on ignore. You obviously have no interest in learning about evolution. Your behaviour seems to show that you are anti-evolution. I have no time for that! You have been given scientific papers but you have ignored every single one of them and offer nothing more than your personal opinions.

    Lol are you joking? On a science forum please if you are going to make a claim back it up with scientific sources yet you refuse to do that. You are offering nothing more than your personal opinion, so why should anyone here take you seriously? Do you understand how science works? It is not based on your personal beliefs, you know that right?
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  7. M. Helsdon Banned Banned

    I have yet to see this. He made fun of neo-Lamarckism and basically said it does not exist but I have just listed many scientific papers claiming it does exist. How is he going to refute the scientific evidence cited in those papers?
  8. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Actually, you haven't.

    What you've listed is a series of studies that show a possibility of support. Now, that's important. Let's discuss why...

    Fossil Record- the fossil record demonstrates the course of evolution, over many millions of years. The primary demonstration is that the evolution of any creature is a very gradual process. This is across the board.

    Occasionally, however, we see a leap. And as with these studies, we see what appears to be a case of Lamarckism. Yet, if Lamarckism was true, why is the overwhelming evidence showing such a gradual process?

    Here's why the appearance is important: If there is an inactive but reactive gene already within a species, it can remain inactive but activated when the parent spawns offspring. For example, immunity can be activated due to alleles responding to environmental pressure. This is an evolved trait many animals share. It's not lamarckian in any way. So, if you perform a study to find out if Lamarckism is true, you may see what appears to be Lamarckism when the gene is activated, when in fact, it was run of the mill Darwinian style evolution. Note how these studies all focus on the same species each time. They've already been established to show this trait.
    Yet the vast majority of studies done to put environmental pressure onto a species to alter their genes does not produce these results because most complex organisms cannot activate massive genetic alterations so readily. To put it simply, while the basics may be there, there is not enough code to account for the affect of a particular genes activation would have on the offspring. If you activated a certain gene that governs an aspect of immunity the genes required to govern other aspects in the complex animal are not present and the activation fails whereas with some simple organisms, those other aspect of immunity response genes are unnecessary or not present.

    This is clear, again, due to the extensive fossil record.

    To address your other claims- you said that "Neo-Darwinism" is crumbling... Over this? Isolated pockets of simple life forms that already contained the genes to show the adaptation in the known experiments?

    Yes, you posted many links. But not one of them demonstrates actual Lamarcism. They only demonstrate a facsimile of what Lamarckism is actually about (Thus the name Neo-Lamarckism) and it's already understood how that happens.
    You have not shown, as you claim, that ToE has moved beyond darwinism in any way whatsoever.

    So, you have a link to TalkOrigins, I suggest that you read it. Understand what Evolution Theory is and what evidence supports it. You will find that a few cultures in petri dishes activating genes they already contain will have little impact.
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Again this is an appeal to authority, a fallacy, not a logical argument! The claim of a "professional scientist" is not evidence in science, what is evidence is data presented by said scientist, can you post for us actually evidence, say an observation or expierment varifying the existance of of neo-lamakains for example? Has the experiement be repilcated? have alternate hypothesis been disproven? And finally do a majority of other evolutionary scientist agree upon these results?

    You know world renound cosmologiest Stephen Hawkins says aliens are comming to get us, should we be scared the man is the most renound cosmologiest alive?
  10. M. Helsdon Banned Banned

    I have shown evidence for inheritance of acquired characteristics in plants, animals and humans. It has been observed, it is not just a "possibility". Did you even bother to read the links?

    You seem to be confusing Lamarckism with saltationism. Nobody is denying evidence for some gradual evolution, but as the papers on saltationism also show, saltational evolution is a reality.

    I have cited many scientific papers proving evolution has moved beyond neo-Darwinism you have just chosen to ignore them and not read them. Niche contruction, endosymbiosis, epigenetics, evo-devo, saltationism, inheritance of acquired characteristics are all evidence that evolution has moved beyond neo-Darwinism, see the cited papers.

    On the topic of Lamarckism:

    Is evolution Darwinian or/and Lamarckian?

    Eugene V. Koonin and Yuri I. Wolf

    Interestingly they classify HGT as Lamarckian:

    They come to the conclusion in their paper that Lamarckian evolution has a place in evolution. This is the evidence evolution has moved beyond a strict neo-Darwinian framework becuase the limited neo-Darwinan framework denied any role for Lamarckian processes. Please understand neo-Darwinism was presented in the 1940's we have come a long way since then, you accept this yes? So your statement about evolution not evolving beyond "Darwinism" makes no sense at all. We have discovered entire new evolutionary mechanisms since the 1940's and not all of them fit the bill as "Darwinian", infact all these mechanisms discussed in this thread are very "non-Darwinian".

    It would help if users on this thread just accepted reality and accept that evolution evolves. Nobody is denying selection, we have just discovered much more about evolution. Just becuase evolution has moved beyond the neo-Darwinian framework does not say that the mechanisms in neo-Darwinism do not exist, of course drift, selection and mutation exist. But the evidence shows so do many other processes some of which may be more important than those things.

    Science is not static and it is stupid to believe evolution only works via "Darwinism". Evolution is not limited and you have been given much evidence for many other evolutionary mechanisms at work besides the "neo-Darwinian" ones. The conclusion is that evolution is evolution, not "Darwinian" becuase many new factors are found in evolution especially in the last 20 years due to finds in developmental biology and it is not possible to fit these finds in science into a "Darwinian" framework. So instead of evolution being "Darwinian", saltationism and "Lamarckian" processes also have a role. So this is the new synthesis and that is exactly what many of the papers show.
  11. M. Helsdon Banned Banned

    I have already done that, I have cited about six papers showing how acquired characteristics have been inherited. It has been observed in plants for example. And theres also a few books on the subject if you want to have a serious read.

    Lamarck's Signature: How Retrogenes are Changing Darwin's Natural Selection Paradigm by by E.J. Steele

    The Soma by Robyn Lindley

  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    M. Helsdon.

    Now can you cite their actually peer review journal publications? I would love to read the detials on this!

    Now lets say a mechanism for inherting immunity does exist, such that mothers with immunity to malaria could make their children immune like they don't. Is there evidence that such a system works over all kinds of adaptation, or just immunity?

    Also Dr Robyn Lindley quote "What the mother ate, can determine whether mice pups have a yellow coat, a brown coat or a mottled yellow and brown coat." is not proof or even evidence of lamarckanism. What is needed is proof that an individual can attapt to surivive, like the mother changes it coat color and then it transmits that change to is children which do the same to the next generation and so forth, and then you need evidence that this is not a special circumstance (like endosymbiosis), but that the parent can aquire just about any change and transmit it.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  13. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    Why should the idea that there may be additional factors in evolution be such a problem?
    Refusing to even look at the evidence?
    This smacks of the Pope refusing to look through Galileo's telescope.
    (an Urbano Myth?)
  14. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

    M. Helsdon

    No, you have cited six articles of varying degrees of self-promotion for several scientists, at least one of which(Shapiro)I know to be a pseudo-scientific hack. No valid evidence of traits acquired during a lifetime being inherited have ever been shown, PERIOD. And it is the burden of anyone claiming it's occurrence to provide evidence, not ours to show evidence of it's non-existence. The papers you cite make unsubstantiated claims and analysis, nothing more. Lamarckism is crap for science, deal with it.

    No, it has not.

    No, you have not, neither has any of your cites. The immune system is a whole group of traits that can be triggered(like the spines in the Three spined Stickleback, which has armor and spines in waters where a certain predator exists, and loses them when that predator is not present)depending on what the fetus is exposed to during development. And the genes for all of those traits were developed through the same Darwinian mechanisms as any other trait, it is the expression that is changing depending on what it is exposed to in the womb(epigenics). It only looks like Lamarckism to those ignorant of(or resistant to)the facts. You, yourself, have genes that exist in your genome for fighting diseases that you have not been exposed to(which may well be extinct), but that many of your ancestors were exposed to for many generations. Sickle cell anemia is a widespread "genetic fault" in African races that is actually a defense the genome developed to keep them alive long enough to reproduce in countries with rampant Malaria. It limits the untreated life of the individual to about 40 years, plenty of time to have offspring. Even people of African descent(recent)still have this gene and it's expression, though no longer needed, causes great harm to the individual. This expression rises and falls depending on the rate the population is exposed, and if the disease is universal the sickle cell people become dominant(through Darwinian attrition)while if the disease is absent we see the trait as a rare and tragic disease(through Darwinian population dynamics). Epigenics is within Darwinian science, Lamarckism is pseudo-science fueled by ignorance and scientific sloth(or ambition).

    Saltation is a mechanism Darwinian evolution can use, though not as you think of it. It in no way nullifies our other knowledge of other mechanisms for change, it just adds another layer of complexity to what we already see is a very complex process.

    You have "proven" nothing. Proving things is not how science is done. You have presented scientists saying they have evidence and THEIR explanation of what it means. The problem is we already knew about the evidence and Darwinism handily explains the evidence without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Knowing only one of the Scientists you cite well(Shapiro), and knowing he is a complete loon(in his explanations, he's a big advocate of infanticide in this case), it doesn't say anything good about your ideas if they all agree with this kook. And we have not moved beyond Darwinism(neo or otherwise is just semantics), this is just nuts(and promoted by nuts).

    And they are seriously deluded to do so. Lamarckism says TRAITS acquired by an organism during it's lifetime are written into it's GENOME. Swapping a gene just removes the organism from the DARWINIAN process that developed that gene in another POPULATION. That is not Lamarckism, it is just the precursor of SEX by simpler means among simpler organisms. And sex is central to Darwinian explanations of INHERITED TRAITS. So, another fail.

    And as those other important mechanisms are discovered, studied and tested they will be incorporated into our understanding of Evolution, that is what science does. But none of those mechanisms replace any part of the science of Evolution(as you and these hucksters are claiming). Nor do they in any way interfere with what we have found so far about evolutionary processes, or our basic understandings of these processes. Nor have they invalidated the accomplishments of Darwin over one hundred and fifty years ago. His work still stands unchallenged, much like Einstein in physics.


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  15. M. Helsdon Banned Banned

    These are very anti-scientific remarks. You are calling professors of biology and genetics deluded and refusing to even read their papers. Are you a scientist and which peer reviewed publications do you have out? There is no reason to doubt the work of these scientists, they have been peer-reviewed they are not crank material, only creationists deny this evidence.

    Ok, it's clear you havn't even clicked on the papers, it has nothing to do with self-promotion. I never cited a paper of Shapiro I cited his book which discusses natural genetic engineering, Shapiro is not a Lamarckian and I never claimed he was. See the first post for a summary of his views.

    It has been shown (see the first post on the top of this page), only your denialism is getting in the way of accepting this evidence.

    Even see the post on Acquired traits inherited via small RNAs

    CITUATION needed. Please back up any of your claims with evidence, all I see from you is personal opinions! Either way I certainly will not be posting on this thread anymore. You have been given the scientific evidence but you deny it based on your personal beliefs. What the hell is "Darwinian science", everything is "Darwinian" to you is it? Nuts. How is HGT, endosymbiosis or niche construction "Darwinian"? They are totally non-Darwinian. You have been given the papers showing how evolution has moved beyond neo-Darwinism synthesis which discuss many of these "non-Darwinian" mechanisms but you ignore them.

    A paper here written by two biologists which again proves the case of this thread:

    Soft inheritance: Challenging the Modern Synthesis

    Sorry Grumpy but science is not based on your personal beliefs, we have peer-reviewed scientific papers listing the evidence for Lamarckian and salational processes in evolution. They are a reality yet you reject all of this and call it delusion and even refuse to read them. Obviously some users on this forum are anti-evolution and I certainily will not be posting here again (please feel free to look over the papers cited in this thread to any other users if you are interesting in learning about this subject).

    You may also want to email the biologists Snait B. Gissis and Eva Jablonka authors of a recent book on the evidence for Lamarckian evolution titled Transformations of Lamarckism: From Subtle Fluids to Molecular Biology (Vienna Series in Theoretical Biology) (2011) that they are "deluded" "pseudoscientists", "cranks" or "hacks" (your words).
  16. M. Helsdon Banned Banned

    Just thought I would comment on this last point of yours. You honestly think that do you, you that all of Darwin's ideas stand unchallenged? Once again you are totally wrong:

    1. Darwins' ideas of pangenesis (a mechanism of heredity) was challenged and it was found it does not exist.
    2. Darwin mentioned "the creator" throughout his works and even wrote the "creator" breathed life into specific forms. This was challenged and rejected by scientists.
    3. Darwin's ideas about the whole of nature being based on a "struggle" were challenged and have been proven to be wrong. Cooperation is a reality in evolution, see scientific publications on mutualism and endosymbiosis.
    4. Darwin's version of the tree of life was challenged and is now universally rejected. See and
    5. Darwin wrote that the Cambrian explosion never happened, this was challenged and he was to be proven wrong.
    6. Darwin denied catastrophes and their role in evolution, this was challenged and we know they have occured (see the work of David Raup for example).
    7. Darwin's ideas about constant gradualism was challenged and is now universally rejected. We know there is stasis but also periods of rapid change in evolution and that not all of evolution is gradual.
    8. "While Darwin argued that competition was the key force driving evolution, a research team from the University of Bristol argues that "living space" is in fact the primary driver. Michael Benton, a co-author of the study, said his team concluded that "competition did not play a big role in the overall pattern of evolution."

    "The new study proposes that really big evolutionary changes happen when animals move into empty areas of living space, not occupied by other animals,"

    9. Darwin's theory of sexual selection was challenged for over 80 years (even self-described "neo-Darwinist" Julian Huxley rejected sexual selection!) and it is still being challenged by some scientists today.

    10. The most important point. Darwin's ideas about natural selection have been challenged for over 150 years and they still are being challenged to this very day.

    So your claim that Darwin's ideas have not been challenged and remain unchallenged is false. Science does not remain static. You have proven to me you do not know this subject. Good bye.
  17. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Lets review basically how things become fact, become execpt component or reality via the scientific methode:
    1. evidence or observations are made
    2. Someone makes a hypothesis/claim based on #1
    3. The hypothesis is used to make predictions/ is tested, if the predictions/tests match the hypothesis it is now a theory
    4. Others test and retest that theory, the theory stands up to the constant testing
    5. Eventually the theory is tested, retested and refined until the only way for the theory to be drop is if new evidence were to come to light that was so grand, so incredible as to wipe out all the evidence generated from thousands of cycles of repeated testing and complete overturn our understand of reality.

    Let try it shalt we? "There is an attraction between physical matter that we have named "gravity"" this one is not hard to test, you and drop and object and observe it fall to the ground, even rockets that reach escape velocity slow as they speed away, this one has been tested and retested some many times and in so many diffrent ways. Do you have another explination?

    Lets see were lamarkianism is on this scale of becoming fact:
    1. there observations that...
    2. ... some have called evidence of lamarkanism

    that is all.

    Thanks for the article though I'll read it.
  18. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

    M. Helsdon

    It wasn't intended as a comment on science, it was a comment on the delusion of science they obviously are working under. I repeat I READ ALL OF YOUR CITES(and more besides)before I posted my first post on this subject. Your cite of Shapiro shows the pseudo-scientific slant you are on. KNOWING that Shapiro is a hack and not reading anything in your other cites that support anything you have misunderstood to be true, well, Shapiro is as good as you ever got, it was all downhill(intellectually)from there. GIGO, I guess.

    It is you that evidently haven't read your own cites. Each is sure that they have the "GREAT INSIGHT"tm to replace or falsify Darwin, and NONE of them actually do. Lamarckism is pseudo-science, saltations do happen, but are simply another way evolved traits are expressed or mutations succeed(look into the saltation that occurred to create Hammerhead sharks, it is believed that one mutation caused dozens of genes to express, bringing forth new morphology. Sharks have been a fertile ground for these types of changes, there are many truly bizarre morphologies in the fossil record), genes are often switched on or off during development in the womb or egg, but those expressions are echos of the original Darwinian development of those traits, not new traits(as you and your cites falsely claim).

    No, it has been claimed, but no one has shown any instance that violates the understanding we now have of genetics and inheritance. There simply are no "Acquired Traits". Even horizontal gene transfer is transferring a gene that evolution developed between closely related organisms(biologically). Did you know that bear mothers that have cubs during colder weather have more cubs with thicker, whiter fur? Evolution provides different templates for expression and the experience of the mother favors the particular set that gives white fur and heavy undercoat during fetal development. Once evolutionary selection forces act on those offspring you could have a massive change in the bear's morphology over a very few generations, with white Polar bears replacing genetically identical Brown bears in higher latitudes, or, as today, the Brown bear population growing as the Polar bears decline(due to global warming and ice melt). It was once thought that cross breeding was the cause of these changes, but Polar bears and Brown bears have never been known to interbreed naturally, it is the populations themselves that change, triggered by the severity of the winters the mothers experience. In the near future there will probably be few or no white bears left, but Polar bears will not be extinct and can reappear given colder conditions due to Darwinian approved gene expression. Bears have been through many glacial ages and they came by their white fur genes through normal evolution, as they developed their dark fur through the same mechanisms for more temperate climes. A mother that can "choose" either according to the conditions at the time of pregnancy has a great survival ability(for her offspring and her whole species)so such ability to switch is also a result of Darwinian principles. So what the hacks you cite call a saltation is actually just a series of genetic evolutionary advantages for two different environments that bear mothers evolved a mechanism to switch between.

    More blather from a pseudo-scientific perspective will not improve the dreck contained therein. Sorry you are running away, I was just getting started in on debunking this garbage and, who knows, you might actually learn how real science is done(hint, it does not consist of cherry picking the few cites you can find for your pseudo-scientific drivel).


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  19. Neverfly Banned Banned

    I concur with this considering his claim that the above has been used to demonstrate that Darwinian Evolution Theory has somehow failed and is 'crumbling.'
    There simply is not much material out there, peer reviewed, that falsifies claims made. So his asking for citations and links vehemently strikes me as a tactic to give the illusion of validity to his arguments and later claim that those that supported mainstream theory had nothing to offer.

    I smell a rat.
  20. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    That would mean all science education is crumbling, which I suspect is where he was really headed.

    Plus he has a short memory. Only a few years ago Britain celebrated the 150th anniversary of Origin of the Species. It was perhaps the most accolades ever given to any scientist. National Academy of Sciences compares Darwin to Copernicus in the impact he has had on science. He seems to be envious of this. How psycho is that?

    The silly aspect of this is, you can go to any authoritative source and find sources applying Darwin's theory, teaching it and explaining how Darwin ushered in the modern scientific era. So my point was: why bother? The updates to Darwin's theory, like DNA and the genome project, have not overturned the basic theory. And all of that is part of mainstream teaching too.

    Helsdon was just trolling anyway, dumping prepared links, stoking the coals, and flaming on.
    Yeah I think you saw it coming. Good call.

    BTW Helsdon, (Hell's Done?) if you're still out there, my troll, the cite you were crying about (my post summarizing Darwin's theory) came for a WGBH Boston (PBS) education refresher course for teachers. You dumb cluck. There's also a National Academy of Sciences tribute to Darwin I was going to give you, but why bother? You obviously have no respect for actual hard work required to get an education.

    BTW everybody else, Helsdon gets off trolling like this. I found him at amazon, same MO:

    I can't tell if he's peddling a book, or just foaming at the mouth. Or both?
  21. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Actually everyone did, yourself included. But until he confirmed it, I didn't say it directly.

    He has an objective and is using distortion to press that objective and sadly, he's not the only one.

    How much harm he can do on a science forum is somewhat limited. But when they hit mainstream media, it's a bigger problem.
    Searching it up on Wikipedia and Discover magazine had similarly authored articles which misrepresent.

    The effect is disturbing- a bit like seeing moon-hoaxer claims as being displayed in mainstream media as toppling NASA and showing the world that the USA is a faking phoney. A greater ignorance push... Oh well. It is election time.
  22. M. Helsdon Banned Banned

    I wasn't going to post again. BUT HERE IS THE EVIDENCE EVOLUTION HAS MOVED BEYOND NEO-DARWINISM, you asked for a summary and HERE it is. Only creationists and anti-science will deny this evidence. Science is not static, evolution has moved beyond neo-Darwinism:

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    For a close view of the table and references for this scientific evidence, please see:

    From The Origin at 150: is a new evolutionary synthesis in sight? by Prof Eugene Koonin.

    The conclusion??

    It is a FACT that evolution HAS moved beyond neo-Darwinism. Only ignorance denies this evidence.

    We have scientific peer-reviewed papers filled with evidence written by professors of biology and genetics that evolution has progressed and moved beyond a strict neo-Darwinian framework.

    Or we have anti-scientific users on an internet forum (who are not scientists) who give personal opinions (grumpy and Aqueous Id) who provide no scientific evidence for their claim that evolution has not progessed in the last 80 years.

    Who to believe? EASY. I will go with the scientists.

  23. The real M. Helsdon Registered Member

    Just a word to the wise: the 'M. Helsdon' posting here posts on the Amazon forums as 'Forests' and has displayed a constant hostility to the role of Charles Darwin in science (a common theme is that Darwin stole all his ideas) and has a tendancy to call everyone he disagrees with a 'Neo-Darwinist'. He mixes scientific evolutionary theories such as epigenetics and Horizontal Gene Transfer with pseudoscience such as psychogenesis and morphic fields. He seems to have created an identity here using my name on Amazon as a means of attempting to discredit my statements there by making it appear that I've adopted (and copied) his posts on Amazon here. He claims to be a student studying ecology and has a fixation on citing papers. For several threads started on Amazon started by him see:

    (Especially page 35 where he accuses me of posting here.)

    He has a history of deleting and then denying his earlier posts, and then declaring that he is going to stop posting, only to return a few days later...

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