Please, do try somethign more original. That quote I took from that site came from the Star Wars website, about an interview with George Lucas. When he was asked that question, that was the response he gave. The rest is non-essential, and frankly is out of point, but if you really want to insult my reading comprehension, then let us take a look at it eh? First off, you accuse me of taking something out of context, well, I find it odd that you'd make this claim, and then only quote the bottom half of the page, right under my own. Let's see exactly what that was, shall we? Alright, this is worthless, as there is no clear answer as to what per say, George is saying about canon. Next. Alright, that's crystal clear, there are two worlds. Well, that was in 2001, so perhaps he changed his mind? Wow, now would you look at that: When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions He compares it to the Star Trek canon, which is basicly all onscreen visuals from the TV shows and the movies are canon. Everything else is not and belongs in a its own world. This matches up with exactly what George claims in the quote before this one. Wait, is Chee saying that George Lucas is wrong? Who holds the higher authority here? Well, perhaps there was a mistake in a crystal clear quote from George, or perhaps he changed his mind. " Um, okay...that does help Chee, but it was very unclear. He never specifically says one way or the other. Alright, so recently he backed up his further claim, but then added a third one, which is a bit strange, but aside from the quote above this one, he has been perfectly consistant in his idea of canon. Now this is strange, the way it goes on, it almost makes you THINK you were right James, but alas, you fail yet again, as you'll see below: Wait, what? This sounds like Chee is indeed saying that there are two different worlds...and contradicting his former claim (p.s. I shouldn't have to tell you that, the quote mentions this, why didn't you catch it? Really, if you'd just assumed I'd argue this quote, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot because Chee can't apparently make up his mind). Whoa Nelly!:jawdrop: Did I just read that correctly? Why yes I did. Allow me to make it easier for your poor eyes to see my dear friend: "Anything not in the current version of the films is irrelevant to Film only continuity." And in case that wasn't clear enough for you, the source USING the quote even points this out: This statement confirms the priority of the "current version of the films" over the original versions, as well as the existence of two separate continuities, the "film only" continuity maintained and followed by George Lucas himself, and the "film + EU" continuity that is used for licensed products. That source just flat out said that Chee's statements follow the film continuity, that is, George's World (nifty name yea?), and film+EU. So in the end, he doesn't say. Frankly it sounds like whichever you like the most is the fan's world, which George stated up in his 2008 quote. Unfortuantely, in the terms of a debate, where we are discussing the world that George Lucas created, designated as such by refering to it as "Star Wars", we mean the Film only. This is supported by no less than four quotes, three of which are coming from George himself, as well as Mr. Chee. The other quotes are confusing, so we have to reasonable answers: A) Chee was wrong when he said that there was only one world. B) Chee wasn't clear, and was likely refering to the film+EU, since that's his section of his job, and would make sense given that context of thinking. C) Chee was lying until he got in trouble, and was forced to tell the truth. Now personally, I doubt C is the right answer, otherwise George would have likely fired him. B isn't likely, given his claim on what George said (despite it being incredibly stupid), but it is a possibility. A is just as possible as B, but a bit more likely given the evidence. However, to be on the safe side, we can assume that given the evidence it was B, but also possibly A, and very much unlikely C. In any case, you're clearly wrong by the very being of your own source and counterclaim to my own. Furthermore, you claim on me taking my quote out of context suggests that you must have read it yourself, or rather you didn't read it correctly at all. So Mr. James, what is it? Are you an idiot, or a liar?Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Wait, so let me get this straight, the "good guys" built a weapon capable of blowing up a planet, armed it to the teeth, and then just happened to blow up a planet with it? A planet full of people who most likely had nothing to do with the rebels? How is that fair or justifiable? Those "good guys" killed millions of people all for the sake of testing out their new toy. In fact, even after the princess broke and claimed to say where it was, they went ahead and blew it up anyway. It wasn't even that you can say that they knew she was lying, because they didn't bother to go and investigate at her claimed location. Now, this may seem a bit of a shallow argument at first, but this isn't the same as executing some prisoners, or perhaps even destroying a ship. He blew up a planet. He literally murdered millions of people, without even checking up on a lead. Alderaan wasn't going anywhere, it didn't have a defense to stop it, and it had no weapons to speak of. But no, they murdered millions of people. Really? Is that why Vader threatened to leave a bunch of Storm Troopers in Lando's city when Lando was pointing out that Vader was constantly changing their pre-arranged deal? It wasn't like he was just changing the deal in order to do what he thought needed to be done, but he literally used terror to try and get his way. He used fear and intimidation after freezing a smuggler in stuff that could kill him, just so he could test it out before Luke got there. See my other post. Alderaan had no fleet, simply because EU is not canon. The Empire is evil. The fact that you can't acknowledge this, even after they all they've done is pathetic. 1) They attacked and killed Jawa's when they were looking for protocol droids. They just didn't destroy the droids, but they really murdered innocent, if shadey people. 2) If the above wasn't enough, they murdered Luke's parents, who were innocent and had no part in the rebels. Rather than just say imprisoning them, they murdered them. That is evil. 3) They built the Death Star with the intent of using it upon worlds that had rebels. Now, declaring strict laws to seed out terrorists may be one thing, and understandable for a ruthless empire, but only an evil one would actually use a weapon to murder millions of defensless people in the name of "peace". By that logic, if the USA nuked the countries holding the terrorists from 9/11, then there is no way anyone could consider that an evil act, despite the fact that for every bad guy you killed, you've killed about a hundred good guys. Even assuming that 10% of Alderaan's people were part of the rebellion, you still murdered millions of people. In fact, the whole point of the Death Star was that it was a weapon of terror. 4) Vader ordered a small group of ships into an asteroid field on a near suicide mission in order to retrieve the Falcon. So rather than letting some terrorists get away, Vader would risk thousands of lives of loyal officers in order to stop them. He's either really, really evil, or really stupid. You pick. 5) Vader's whole issue with the Han and Lando issue, as mentioned above. 6) The Empire plans to make ANOTHER Death Star, bigger and stronger than last time. To murder perhaps billions of people. 7) In ANH, they tortured Leela We normally consider men who torture women, and then murder someone evil. Waht these guys did was not only torture a woman, but then killed millions of people just to get her to talk. If you can't see that as evil, then you need to get examined.:bugeye:
One of the problems is that the Lucasian version of Star Wars (and THX 1138, and Indiana Jones, and Willow, even Howard the Duck) ther is clearly good and there is clearly evil (in addition to the people in the gray middle). The view of objective evil, though is not universal and seems to have been muted significantly in the EU as compared to the heavy handedness of it in the films. I suspect it's a combination of authors who are themselves moral relativists, or simply want to redeem the bad guys because they find them to be so cool. As such discussing anything about Star Wars is a bit like discussing Battlestar Galactica. If someone were to pose the question "Does Adama ever lash out in anger at those around him?", the purists who hew to the 1970's episode would quickly say "no" whereas the fans of the 2004 series would disagree. In truth, those are very different shows, and you can't really about one from looking at the other. I have heard Lucas say unequivocably that Sith are evil and the Jedi good (with the potential to fall to evil), and have also seen many a "The Sith are not evil" argument based on the EU. It wouldn't surprise me if the same split happened with the Empire. From the movies, though, it seems the things that define the Empire are things like (i) slaughtering younglings, (ii) Jedi purges, (iii) using WMDs on their own populace, (iv) abolishing democracy, (v) using torture seemingly as a matter of routine and (vi) "Lightning bolts spawned from pure evil [tearing] into Luke's body with searing pain". The Star Wars Databank seems to reflect Lucas's view, referring to the Empire as "a tyrannical regime, presided over by a shadowy and detached despot" where: and ending with "the Imperial reign of terror over the galaxy ended. The Rebellion began forming a New Republic, and worlds across the galaxy celebrated their newfound freedom. " http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/theempire/ Where does the databank fall in the cannon?
Hellblade8: I will quote myself to answer. The quotes above relate a world where George Lucas does not recognize the EU as binding, but where the canon is determined on a sliding scale with Film and TV versions trumping what occurs in the EU if they contradict. If they contradict. If they do not contradict, then the EU is canon. Any reasonable reading of George Lucas and Chee's comments above lead us to that answer.
Hellblade8: Great tactics, wasn't it? A great way to make an example out of a planet. But no: I never claimed they were the good guys. I simply stated they weren't evil. Ruthless, but not evil. Terror with people who were giving aid and succor to the enemies of the Empire. Vader would have been justified to entirely seize the entire operations and execute Lando Carlrissian. They likely faced resistance. They were ordered to find an enemy of the state. They refused to assist. That is treason. You have to break a few eggs in the process of making a nice omlette. "Ours is not to question why, ours is to do or to die." Yes. Rebels against the Empire. Enemy of the state.
Pandaemoni: I think it is pretty clear, even in the EU, that the SIth are evil in the normal sense. This differs, however, from a government which is, more or less, ruthless and perhaps slightly despotic, but also a government. It is also notable that the films present one of the most stunning ideas in modern cinema: That love is, itself, evil.
No. It's the selfishness and passion of love that can be evil, in seeking things like keeping your love alive no matter what the cost, or loving them so much that you are willing to commit evil acts to avenge their deaths. Han and Leia's love wasn't shown as being tainted by Evil at all, and it wa sthe love of Luke that eventually redeemed Anakin.
Pandaemoni: Han and Leia's love didn't involve force users or anyone with any real sense of power. The EU made Leia into a force user, but primarily she was not. Luke cared about his father's soul. It was not so much love, but the recognition of human goodness. All love of any romantic type os selfish and passionate. One cannot have a detached love which can lead to romance.
Sorry, that's a load of bull crap. You just ignored 70% of the quotes used by that site in order to come to a conclusion that it does not support. Either you find a REAL argument, or perhaps we can discuss the point of intentionally misusing information and sources in a debate with a moderator?
Hellblade8: I believe at this point I laugh at in your face. You are going to tattle to the mods that "I intentionally miuse information" on Star Wars Canon? Do it! So I can lose about a pound from the caloric usage of laughing hysterically from such. George Lucas canon = highest. He doesn't care what else is written, so long as it doesn't abuse the SW name, and it doesn't try to contradict his movies. His movies are law and what he writes is what counts as highest truth. That is "the film only" continuity. The films are complete as such and also highest canon. The EU, when it doesn't contradict, is canon.
Please feel free to. Yes, and the idea of just how childish it sounds should tell you of just how pathetic you really are. How you actually expect anyone here to take your argument seriously when your own source disagrees with you is beyond me. Worst of all, you take your own quotes out of context, while claiming that I did the same. Then you did it again (although said quote was saying the exact opposite of what you claim), and yet again, save with a smaller quote. I am not here to babysite little children who are too pathetic to be honest. And that is your argument: childish and dishonest. But at least you finally gave me one truthful response. You're a liar. Is it possible for you to not try and horribly twist his quotes to meet with your agenda? Not likely I suppose. Prove that George Lucas approves of one whole universe. I have proof that he approves of at least two universes on multiple occasions, and three in a recent one. [/QUOTE]During ShoWest 2008, Lucas gave an interview where he mentioned the difference between "his world", "the licensing world" and the "fans' world": Interviewer: "Do you think you'd have other people continue the Star Wars saga past Episode VI or turn some of the other material into films?" Lucas: "But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books. But there's three worlds: There's my world that I made up, there's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it."[/QUOTE] All quotes are from 2001, 2005, and 2008. George has been clear save for one or two quotes on SW canon policy, and this is further confirmed by Mr. Chee: That gives us 2001, 2005, 2006, and 2008 quotes that confirm there is two universes (well, three sorta). And I'll be sure to send that message, but only after work. But have fun with all the people who are capable of reading entire pages, and don't fall for cheap childish tricks.
Hellblade9: I am all ready dying of laughter. I feel absolutely like a character from Mary Poppins. Then Chee...
First, while your explanation makes sense, it's obviously your interpretation and not part of any canon. I don't recall the lesson "love is great, but the Force makes gives it the potential for evil, so it's only great for non-Force users" in the movies. Second, more philosophically, not all love is romantic love. If fact, most happily married people I know are past the "romantic" love stage, because romance tends to fade over time (either fading into a mature love based on commitment and intimacy or fading into the realm of "why am I with you again?")
Has anyone stopped to think that perhaps the rebellion was evil? What would happen to all the billions of people living on fringe systems that need imperial support for supplies and order. How would an economy of that magnitude survive when its currency is suddenly void? What of the thousands of stormtroopers who are suddenly out of commission? Who is going to hire thousands of clones... except maybe some intergalactic wal-mart corporation who wants to replace all their door greeters. I've never seen any evidence provided that the empire was doing anything wrong to alderan or any other planets for such an uprising to occur.
Have fun. And that contradicts with the other quotes I have stated, which not only state there is more than one world, but also compares it to Star Trek canon. Do have fun getting out of that.
Um, they murdered millions of people to get a woman to talk, and then did it anyways. Think about holding a gun to a child's head because you wanted a prisoner to talk, and the only thing the two had in common was that they're from the same nation. When the prisoner replies, you shoot the child. You don't bother checking the source, you just pull the trigger. Now imagine millions of children, their mothers, their fathers, and then imagine all the lives you ended just for a tid bit of information. The Rebels never murdered anyone innocent (that is, not part of the SW milita), and they never murdered millions of people for information. Is that to say what they did was right or wrong? Well that depends on your specific point of view. They did kill thousands of officers with the engagement of the Death Star, but that was also in self-defense. Surely they weren't the best of the lot that could have been rebels, but they were no where nearly as bad as the Empire.
I believe Yoda said it was "jealousy" and "the fear of loss" that were the path to the Dark Side, neither of which is a necessary corollary of love though they do often appear together. More importantly, "the path to the dark side" is not in my understanding the same as "evil" it is the simply a warning to be cautious about ones actions and mindful of ones ethics to avoid committing evil through rash action.
Paedaemoni: Clearly though, one who has embraced the Dark Side (via consistantly acting in accords with it) would count as evil, no? At least in the normal sense. Moreover, it is clear that Jedi do not discredit "universal love" or agape or perhaps non-passionate philia, but eros is certainly anathema to the Jedi code and to their way of life and philosophy.
