I must ask, after seeing these disturbing statistics.Do SciForumers think that the empire is evil? Statistics These statistics coming from this overbiased site made by someone who apparently hates ST and everything it stands for. Stardestroyer.net
"I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds, people live their lives under Imperial rule without seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead." Only a few at the top were evil, most imperial governors and generals truly only wanted the best for the galaxy. So some would call it evil and some would call it good its all a point of view. Many citizens of the Empire see the Rebels as the evil ones.
Of course they only wanted what THEY thought was best for the Galaxy not what others wanted to have. They only saw their ideas of the things that others should have and gave them limited resources to get those things only. As long as they are on the top running things then all is OK but never give others the opportunity to advance because they could be a threat to your own views of what must be done to control and manipulate others.
No, the Galactic Empire was ruthless but not evil. On the whole, most of its trillions of inhabitants were completely satisfied with their life and government. Post-Vong Empire is even better (under Roan Fel). The Empire is positively bad ass then. Imperial Knights are fucking awesome.
Alright, perhaps some convincing is in order: And of course, the link to said web page: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon#Canon_in_the_Holocron_continuity_database
Any excuse for torture and mass murder? If the point made at one of the links in the topic post about Alderaan isn't enough, let us consider it in context. Not only was the planet destroyed as a form of "enhanced interrogation technique", they tried that one after their prior enhanced techniques, including what appears to be sexual torture, failed. (What? I know I'm not the only person in the world who noticed the burn mark on the back of Leia's dress.) Those who were "happy" were largely indifferent; the Empire was still expanding at the time we first encountered Luke Skywalker in A New Hope. Governor Tarkin: You don't know how hard I found it, signing the order to terminate your life. Princess Leia: I'm surprised that you had the courage to take the responsibility yourself. Governor Tarkin: Princess Leia, before your execution, you will join me at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No star system will dare oppose the Emperor now. Princess Leia: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers. The reign of terror was broken by the rebellion before it could come to fruition. The terrible evil unleashed by a Sith-ruled empire was stopped dead in its tracks.
Hellblade9: Your quotation is laughably out of context. Especially when this same information is present on the same webpage: In 2000, Lucas Licensing appointed Leland Chee to create a continuity-tracking database referred to as the Holocron continuity database. The Holocron follows the canon policy that has been in effect for years, but the capabilities of database software allow for each element of a story, rather than the stories themselves, to be classified on their own merits. The Holocron's database includes an area for a single-letter (G, C, S, N or T) representing the level of canonicity of that element; these letters have since informally been applied to the levels of canon themselves: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, N-canon and T-canon. As part of his work with the Holocron, Chee was responsible for the creation of this classification, and he spent the early stages developing and refining them into what they are today. G, C, S and T together form the overall Star Wars continuity. Each ascending level typically overrides the lower ones; for example, Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones, forcing the retcon of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story. However, this is not always absolute, and the resolution of all contradictions are handled on a case-by-case basis. G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. T-canon[1], or Television Canon[2], refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee[3]. C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be; they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports. S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon. N-canon is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Leland Chee continues to answer questions about the Holocron in the Holocron continuity database questions thread at the starwars.com forums. On August 4, 2004, when asked if the G and C-levels formed separate and independent canon, Leland Chee responded by stating that both were part of a single canon: "There is one overall continuity." In a December 7, 2005 post, Chee commented on how the Holocron is applied to licensees: "The Holocron comes into play for anything official being developed for books, games, websites, and merchandise. For anything beyond that, it is simply a reference tool." In a December 6, 2006 post, Chee contradicted his original statements regarding the canonicity of the Holocron and how it applied to the Star Wars universe: "The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and the combined current version of the films along with whatever else we've got in the Holocron. You're never going to know what George's view of the universe beyond the films at any given time because it is constantly evolving." On a post made on the same day, Mr. Chee stated that: "Anything not in the current version of the films is irrelevant to Film only continuity." This statement confirms the priority of the "current version of the films" over the original versions, as well as the existence of two separate continuities, the "film only" continuity maintained and followed by George Lucas himself, and the "film + EU" continuity that is used for licensed products. Subsequent questioning over which continuity was "more official" revealed that Mr. Chee favored film + EU continuity, but in the end it was up to the individual fan: "You're asking the Keeper of the Holocron, so of course I'm gonna be a bit biased ... The reality is that a huge number of people who have seen all 6 Star Wars films have never played a Star Wars game, visited a Star Wars website, watched a Star Wars television program, read a Star Wars publication, or purchased a Star Wars action figure or collectible. It would be great disservice to discount these people as fans." What you fail to recognize is that George Lucas operates without regard for the EU when he wants to. That is to say, when he is making a film, he doesn't consult the EU first when he doesn't want to. HIs canon is the highest level. What he says, is. If he says the Eu never happened, he could do that. But he doesn't and it doesn't. When lower leels contradict higher levels, higher levels come out. The highest level is George Lucas' films. The films are the top canon. Thus the films represent a "film only canon" as they are highest. The EU is canon in as far as it does not contradict the films. When it contradicts the films, it is not canon. Please, reading comprehension is essential.
Tiassa: I don't recall these. I'll need to find me the scene quickly. Or if you want, can you post some pics? Largely indifferent to the sufferings that the Empire was putting rebels through. The majority of the time, the Empire was a force for good: It brought order, justice, regulation, cohesion, et cetera, to a galaxy which had experiencd a decade of civil war 30 years prior. It is also notable that Princess Leia is an insurrectionist and ALderaan was smuggling weapons to the Alliance. Both Leia as a person and Alderaan as a nation were completely within the bounds of reasonable, albeit it ruthless behaviour, to deal with. If anything, they should have tortured Leia more.
The Coruscant Empire and the Heroes of Burma Unfortunately I haven't a capture to post, but when Luke rescues Leia from her cell, there are a few frames in which you can see a small brown oval on the back of her dress that would be well-placed, as such, if you bent her over. It looks like a scorch mark, and suggests localized electrocution. And when I say a few frames, it was more evident than the stormtrooper smacking his head on the door to the control room where C-3PO and R2-D2 are hiding. I first noticed it when they finally ran Episode IV on broadcast television years ago. I do not recall that Lucas "corrected" this in the "improved" version, so it seems deliberate. The rise of Palpatine legitimized the triumph of greed over justice. Well, yeah. If they're an evil empire. You might as well praise the Burmese junta for bringing order, justice, regulation, cohesion, &c. to a nation historically torn by crime, corruption, and internal strife. Few, if any, would call Burma a successful example of a Socialist revolution. What possible justice does the empire bring by destroying entire planets as an interrogation technique? Not just the people on the planet, but the planet itself?
Tiassa: I'll check it out. I'll try to find the clip on the net, as I don't feel like checking my tapes or DVD. That and I have image capturing tech on my computer, so I might be able to post something. Hardly? He got rid of the war profiteers who owned the Confederacy of Independent Systems. The Technounion, The Intergalactic Banking Clan, the Trade Federation... Sometimes a populace needs to be dealt with harshly in order to bring a working government to it. It was a fear tactic. The Rebels need to know that they are overwhelmed. Alderaan was pretending pacifism but was really helping the Rebels.
Hmph .... Damn. I'll have to get hold of a DVD and search through it. I know I'm not the only one who has seen it. I've talked about it with people as we watched the film before. Along other lines: in the novelization of Return of the Jedi, the narration during Leia's enslavement by Jabba reminds that she has been through worse before, and recalls the torture droid. I'll figure out where it is in the film and get back to you.
Notes on a notion You have the scene I intended, but I'm not seeing it there. My memory of when we see the spot would appear to be incorrect. On another point, though, from the post I missed: So who should the United States nuke? Or should we take the lesson that it certainly didn't discourage the rebels? One of the striking things about the general discussion is that a system designed to be received as evil should be considered so attractive to so many people. Perhaps it is a changing mythology. Our bicentennial spirit originally sympathized with the rebels according to our own revolutionary heritage. Perhaps these days the War Against Terror has changed the outlook dramatically. And just out of curiosity, what is the evidence that Leia's actions represented the whole of Alderaan? Perhaps her greatest crime is impetuously endangering the entirety of the people she represented.
Tiassa: The Rebels had the plans to the Deathstar,t hat is why it didn't discourage them. If they didn't, they'd be up against something utterly invulnerable. They'd have kow-towed. I am not saying I do not sympathize with the Rebel Alliance (although perhaps my sense of aesthetics favours the Empire). Only that there is a difference between ruthless and evil. Whole scale oppression is not seen in the Empire. EU sources: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Destruction_of_Alderaan Alderaan even had a rebel fleet near it. It was hardly in a position to claim the neutrality it did.
