Is Punching A Nazi OK?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by ElectricFetus, Feb 3, 2017.

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  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    I look forward to that realization ending your posting of the Party name "National Socialist" on this forum.
    Meanwhile, we have the common term "nazi", a leftover, as part of the OP.
    Bullshit. It's not easy, and most people who try it will either miss or break their hand. The only way to do it consistently would be to 1) practice a lot, and 2) sucker-punch (so their head moves) with some kind of brace - a roll of coins, say - for the fist.
    That's not a similarity. The racial identifications involved are radically different: Just for starters: the one is imposed from the outside, involuntary; the other is adopted, voluntary. That has fundamental moral and ethical consequences.

    Isn't the difference between voluntary and coerced status kind of your big focus? How'd you miss that one?
    Or see northern Wisconsin in the 1930s, northwestern Mexico after NAFTA, Honduras and Colombia in the wake of the capitalist takeover, the slums of Brazil as we speak - capitalism has destroyed families and local communities wherever it has escaped governance, often beginning with the removal of the men from the daily life of the children, and the introduction of mercenary violence.

    Fortunately, when the advent of an incoming round of predatory or bullying capitalism is announced by its "nazi" advocates, it becomes visibly odious (political synesthesia). And if the purveyors of violence and odium make themselves obnoxious enough, in the right circumstances, they can be punched without qualm or violation of civilized norms. Or slapped, for that matter - injury is hardly the point.

    The question here, from the OP, is what those circumstances would be.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017
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  3. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That's the big cause that Black Lives Matter adopted, the central motivation behind the founding of that entire movement - surely they have your support?
    How about the Standing Rock Pipeline protestors - they also took a stand opposing political violence, especially as inflicted upon them: did they earn your support. petition signings, etc?

    Personally, I don't see any occasion for fear or terror from the doings of ANTIFA, or even the doings attributed to ANTIFA by the wingnut media. So I can hardly support declaring them a terrorist organization yet - maybe they just haven't figured out how to do it. But I do see plenty of such occasion in the doings of the Bundy family and their associates, with memories of the Oklahoma City bombing still fairly fresh. Is there a petition to list them?

    Meanwhile, back to the OP: under what conditions is punching a "nazi" ok? Bowser says its not ok if it's "political violence" - so it's not ok to punch them while they are making political speeches, or simply because of their political identification. But the area of self defense, obnoxious personal threat or assault, etc, were the main arenas at issue anyway. Progress?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017
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  7. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    I am not sure if it would be a good idea to punch a Nazi, since most leftists would get their butts kicked. The Nazis, are not feminized tree huggers, who are used to a fawning propaganda based media and political party, who feeds them misinformation, to inflate their egos and charge them up. The Nazi are good with guns, like to hunt, and can endure hardship. After they ground and pound you, they may decide to skin you and use your hide for a flag.

    I am not siding with the Nazis, but a betting man will do his research and then bet the leftist will not survive the first round.

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  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    edit out - barrel fish
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017
  9. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    The first round was World War Two.
     
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, you needn't know anything about me at all to know weather an argument is sound and valid or cogent and strong. That's the point.

    That said, yes, defending yourself against an attack is perfectly compatible within a moral system. Did I think it's a good thing? Good question. I did years of mixed kick boxing and hapkido when I was a teenager, IMO getting punched or kicked or thrown isn't as big a deal - not as big a deal as you may think it is. Girls, boys etc... I never knew anyone to think it was a big deal. And being attacked by some drunk idiot and KO him also isn't that big a deal IMO. Seems like the sort of thing boys do, I'd say normal.

    Going around picking fights with people, or purposefully putting yourself in a situation where you're looking for a fight - that's a problem. Defending yourself, seems reasonable to me. Not to defend yourself - that seems odd. As for thinking it's a 'good thing'. It's good that the (very few) fights I ended up in, ended on my terms. But, things could have went the wrong way. Like the times I had a gun pointed at me. Yes, one time in particular I vacated myself as quickly as was possible. Also, I've certainly ran or quickly walked away or left when that option was available.


    Re: Iceaura, I've never known anyone to hurt their fist - even when they had zero idea what they were doing. I wasn't a black belt and I never hurt myself and it never happened to anyone I knew. A broken toe, sure, that happens. A fist? Never happened in my experience.
     
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Some grainy video of some twat - who to me, looked like a kid. The morality doesn't change.
     
  12. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    You do not live in a country were it is legal to shoot people just because they are "black". Further still, most Blacks are killed by other Blacks. The reason? Because of a break down in the family unit. And, ironically enough, probably the denigration of Christianity as a moral guiding force. Believe it or not, but studies show people (I'm thinking low IQ people) are better able to control their behaviors, when told a magical being is watching them. Probably why we have the various types of religions located in various countries. It's probably why we have religion.

    Sadly, we now have a new Religion, it's called Statism. Unlike the pretend Gods, this one can actually kill you, and will soon be able to watch over most of what you're doing. How nice.
     
  13. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    If someone does physical harm to you, sure. The point is you're not justified to assault someone because you disagree with their ideas, regardless of what those ideas might be.

    As far as signing a petition against ANTIFA, they are not only a danger to Trump supporters, but to any legitimate "protest" held by anti-Trump people.

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  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Coerced Status? All Americans share equal rights protection under the law.

    Evidenced by the fact that Asians, a non white minority, have an average income higher than the supposed White Patriarchy who supposedly rules over them. The same is true of Jewish.

    What do Jews and Asians share in common other than minority status? Higher than average IQs.

    Furthermore, not wanting to date you, is not using coercive violence against you. It also isn't violently conferring a social status upon you either. Choosing not to form a relationship with someone is perfectly moral, whether you like it or not. It's not violent.

    That's difference.
     
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Or threatens your children, directly and overtly. Right?
    Nobody here has suggested otherwise, so far.
    Yes, he does. So do I. So does every American.

    And why does your train of thought run to rightwing authoritarian racist bullshit normally invoked to justify police killings?

    Even when they tried to hit someone in the nose with an "uppercut", using a bare and unbraced fist? (I mean, I'm taking your word that you actually did some hitting of people, but that does introduce a certain amount of doubt. How do you get them to bend over and present their nose for that trajectory? )
    Other people - including almost any emergency room doc in the US - can fill you in on this unique and improbable gap in your life's experiences: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer's_fracture

    Well, that explains how you missed it.
     
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    On Blithering from Ignorance

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    Yeah, actually I do. Remember, I live here, while you make believe from afar.

    And it's worth wondering why people who opine so loudly and obnoxiously as you do are so damn uninformed↱.

    Blithering from ignorance is no useful argument, Michael.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Lombroso, Danel and Yoni Appelbaum. "'Hail Trump!': White Nationalists Salute the President-Elect". The Atlantic. 21 November 2016. TheAtlantic.com. 6 February 2017. http://theatln.tc/2kBnR9j
     
  17. Dr_Toad It's green! Valued Senior Member

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    No, Tiassa, you don't.

    And for real? Yoni Appelbaum? What a name...
     
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  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I will change my opinion if you provide at least one peer reviewed source for each of your two claims:

    1) You appear claim it is legal to shoot blacks in America - because they are black. My argument is that this is not true; it is not legal to shoot blacks in America. Further, I will argue that all American Citizens are afforded the same legal rights with a few minor exceptions (such as the right to walk topless for women in public, which has been challenged in court and it is legal in some areas of the USA).

    2) You appear to suggest that there is evidence that White Americans committing most violent crimes against Black Americans. As if there is this White on Black epidemic in America. Okay, provide the data to back up this argument. Because I think you'll find the data shows something entirely different.


    As for me, I could live on the moon, I could live in the year 2200, I could live downtown Tokyo or downtown Chicago, where I live has absolutely no bearing on the truth value of the above arguments. Further, by ignoring the scientific evidence, and instead 'going with your gut' / anecdotal or wishful thinking or just plain bias, you are actually making the problem (and there most certainly is a problem/s) much worse. Ignoring reality isn't normally associated with positive outcomes. It's why we invented objective science. And AMOF that is what was so ingenious with Aristotle's use of letters to represent categories in arguments - it completely destroyed the Sophists method of argumentation. His Logic is one of the best inventions in human history. Something to consider.
     
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    It really depends on what you mean by 'threatens' in the category of 'directly' and the category of 'overtly'. If a person comes onto your property with a gun for example, breaks into your home uninvited, then yes, you have the right to defend yourself (property) and your children (property claim over).
     
  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    His argument was that black Americans are being 'legally' killed without cause. That's not true.

    Feel free to provide a citation if you think otherwise.

    It should be noted, police kill more White Americans than black Americans, even though White Americans not only commit a significantly lower total number of violent crimes per percent population, but less total number percent overall as well.

    That's something to consider when conducting your 'objective' analysis of the data. You may also want to look at the number of violent crimes committed against the minority category "Asian" Americans by white and black Americans. I think you'll begin to see a pattern.

    Lastly, since we're using the terms 'black' and 'white' Americans. I want to ensure that I am quite clear on how I am using these categories. White and Black are PURELY subjective. As in, an American citizen cannot be objectively categorized into a class of "White" or "Black" and must themselves subjectively identify with a category and chose to be in it or chose "Other". Are we clear on this? Okay, good. Because that is important. Something that the "White Nationalists" and "BLM" members seem a little confused about.
     
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Let's see:
    1) There's the time I was at a house party in the countryside. It got late in the night, I didn't know that many people there, someone thought it'd be funny to egg another guy on into fighting me (I had long hair back then, so it was started with some comment like why not hit Jesus blah blah blah...). Well, he had no idea what he was doing. Danced in front of me for a couple minutes, bouncing back and forth, then ducked down and came at me with a windmill. Or so I recall. I flattened him with one punch to his nose. It was a mess. And I'm not a 'Big" person. 5'10" medium build. I checked on him at his work the next day. He said maybe his nose was broken. I didn't really know him, so, that was that. Maybe I apologies, maybe not. He attacked me. I felt justified.

    2) Another time was at a bar in Australia. This was over my accent. I was playing pool. I sort of got on hot streak. Some guy got butt hurt. Now, mind you, there's Fijian bouncers here so I wasn't so worried and would normally have just walked away. But this guy wanted to kick my arse - over a freaken accent. So, I told him not to touch me and I would leave. He (in front of his girlfriend) walks over and gets in my fave. I mean, this is the guy I was beating at a game of pool (what a sore loser). So, I told him, if you lay a hand on me or touch me, I'm going to break your nose. He walks right over to me, I stupidly stood there (it's a wonder he didn't head butt me) and weirdly smashed his nose into my nose. So, in that case, maybe it was a right hook to his nose. But, whatever. He went down.

    That's pretty much about it in terms of outright hitting someone in the face outside of sparing and pseudo fighting / wrestling with my step brothers and cousins. There was a time when a cousin of mine just about killed me in a choke hold. I was scared enough to never wrestle with him. As a matter of fact, I don't think I really ever wanted to talk to him again. I'm still not sure if my step brother hadn't pried his arm off my neck (which was wrapped upright over his waste) I'd have suffocated. That side of the family was almost all boys. I had 16 male cousins and 2 female. They all liked to wrestle and sort of fight. It wasn't really my thing, but, I also wasn't going to back down either. So, I usually got my butt handed to me, because they were almost all trained in wrestling at school, and were bigger than me and frankly better - they all did school sports. I did martial arts. It really isn't that good at defending against people who wrestle. Or so was the case with me. I mean, assuming you're not going to jab their eyes out or break a knee. Which you're not.


    So, to go the original post. No, it's not moral to initiate violence against someone else, even if what they think makes you unhappy (or they don't want to go on a date with you). It is perfectly moral to defend yourself.

    Note: Not wanting to go on a date with you, is not 'threatening' you. Agreed?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Eric Garner.

    In all three cases, a criterion of "threat" was their dark skin.

    In all three cases, this prejudicial assessment was accepted.
     
  23. Dr_Toad It's green! Valued Senior Member

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    Whether or not someone wearing a badge or a fucked-up ego was wrong in a killing still doesn't make it legal. Mike Brown was a fucking thug. Martin and Garner probably weren't, but neither of us knows everything.
     
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