is life really generating order or is it just our false narrative perspective?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by globali, Jan 27, 2019.

  1. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Bullshit. How about answering my two questions? Or is that beyond your capacity.
     
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  3. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    i can imagine Neil deGrasse Tyson putting this on a T shirt and wearing it

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  5. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks, I would be honoured if that happens

    It does happen so frequently you could make a rubber stamp answer (

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    except can't use with a mobile)

    Another frequent mis-comprehend is energy is a force - you can have a force field - you can have a energy field

    As much as I like and enjoy scifi I'm sad it sowed so much science confusion

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  7. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    entropic anthropomorphic reductive reasoning lol

    energy is what i is i am doing is me
    there for i know everything or i dont care

    fragile egos battling for self actualisation in a materialistic world they refuse to acknowledge yet project their own fear into manifest.

    giving up is not an art form of diplomacy though you would think they have been taught that

    humans can be soo annoying

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  8. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Welcome aboard fellow alien

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  9. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Non-randomness.
     
  10. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed energy is not a force. Energy is force x distance.

    But you can't have an "energy field". You can have a field which has energy (e.g. a magnetic field) but that is a bit different. If you type "energy field" into your search engine, all you get a lot of woo and crystals-and-shit nonsense

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    .
     
  11. globali Registered Senior Member

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    I don't want to make a biology lecture here, but fyi most of the material from dead organisms will undergo extensive catabolism (up to CO2 and H2O) and produce energy. The basic elements for anabolic reactions are mostly glucose, aminoacids, etc, which are already quite complex. Its not that it makes everything from scratch all the time. Most of it involves some elongation, branching , glucosylation, etc
    We offer biochemistry lessons apart from lobster and champagne!! Priceless
     
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Biological science has been so often and consistently productive and informative and useful and enlightening that such questioning bears a large burden of proof.
    You have doubts, yes. We know.
    Produce an example of a confirmed non-creationist who sees any such "gap" as this:
    Meanwhile, a crude error:
    Most of the living beings on this planet (by count, and mass) eat simple "elements" (obviously: molecules, as only a couple of noble gasses commonly exist as elements) and make complex molecules out of them.
    Sometimes this situation is structured, or analyzed, as "trophic levels" - if you want to read up. The newly discovered ecosystems underneath the surface of the continental crust are especially interesting, in that regard. Have fun.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
  13. globali Registered Senior Member

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    Isn't this too vague? Is there another example of non-randomness in other sciences that the term is used or being studied or has been experimentally studied or gave useful scientific experimental data? How do you differentiate from a bunch of chemical reactions in a flask?


    If you mean about the gap and who fishes on it, just take a look at the phrases: life self-organizes. Life is chemistry.
    But chemistry does not self-organize (unless you mean some silly theories out there that try to convert the complex spatial interactions into algebra and do some magical hocus-potus to create order! lol!)

    I just think that life doesn't necessarily self-organize or create order. Its an observer anthropocentric issue. For an outside objective observer, life is just a tremendous number of spatially complex chemical interactions, and similar systems under the same laws of nature end up giving similar results all the time. There are no machines that try to preserve themselves. That's how the results perceive themselves (from their point of view) and the system that is producing them.
     
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Living beings do. We can observe them doing it, right in front of us.
     
  15. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    What would you call crystallisation then? Is that not self-organisation of randomly jumbled molecules or ions into an objectively ordered array, with lower entropy than the phase from which it crystallises? Entropy is not a subjective quantity. It is derived from objective measurements: dS=dQ/T
     
  16. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Good night all

    My taxi has arrived

    I'm going to McDonald's

    At least they feed you there

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  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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  18. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    That's a broad definition of "food".
     
  19. globali Registered Senior Member

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    How exactly do we see that? Do we see organisms created from simple chemicals in front of our eyes? Like in the Terminator movies when a dead melted metal converts into a living robot in front of our eyes?
    In real life, all interactions happen not only because all the other life that co-exists, but also because of all the other life that pre-existed. To give an analogy to what you are doing now is this: you are ignoring the entire ocean and you focus on just a drop of water inside the ocean, you isolate it, and then you claim that this drop dances and constantly moves, changing places by itself.



    Have you ever measured actual entropic changes in living phenomena (based on that formula you mentioned) or are there only assumptions that life must be ordered because we think it self-organizes?
    Crystallization is a rare event, but i don't its an example that can be used here. Have you ever seen organic chemicals to spontaneously self-organize? Crystallization is a very rare event and provides an example of a small entropic decrease. However, from y'alls perspective of life being organization, we must have a source of constant, continuous and tremendous source of entropic decreases in order to create and maintain life. This is statistically not impossible, but I would personally prefer other explanations that require far less luck to occur before i end up believing this version..
     
  20. globali Registered Senior Member

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    Can you get me big mac? thanks
     
  21. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    It's sole food

    As in, it tastes like the sole of a shoe

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  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Bingo.

    Indeed we do. We are mining the planet of its resources and turning all those homogenously distributed minerals into highly-refined devices, such as plows and irrigation systems and tractors, which is allowing us to turn all those nitrates and ground water into food. The seeds that grow in the dung of wild animals grow hard structures that reach toward the sun in defiance of gravity. Et cetera.

    The end result of much of what happens on Earth is heat and carbon dioxide.
     
  23. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Having coffee now

    Are the rest still at the table waiting for the magic meal to drop by along with god gives us life as well as this meal?

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