Is it possible to believe in God, and be a darwinist at the same time?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Jan Ardena, Jul 24, 2013.

  1. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    Role play for a moment, pretend to be God and create life in the Universe, what do you do? Is it just planned out in the mind of God, or does he get his hands dirty? I want to know how you link the spiritual with the physical.
     
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  3. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Yazata,


    I'm not sure what you mean by ''simple belief in God'', the inconsistency is the actual point of the question you responded to.



    How is it possible?

    Why do they favour ''theistic evolution'', why don't they accept that God instructed the earth to bring forth the forms of life?
    Why bother with the darwinistic notion of origin of species at all?

    Sorry, but i'm not sure what you're getting at here.

    jan.
     
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  5. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Rav,

    I have never given what could regarded as a ''personal conception'' of God. There is no personal conception of God, just as there is no personal conception of gravity (unless of course one just makes shit up).

    This is a stupid analogy.

    Let's not take a typical Christian for example. The title of the thread is ''can a person believe in God and be a darwinist at the same time''. It is a question regarding theism, not religion.

    The ''concept of God'', in this day and age, comes from scriptures. All these debates, discussions, and arguments are based on the concept of God as portrayed in the scriptures. It appears that ''theistic evolution'', or the idea that darwinistic evolution is correct, is in opposition to them, not adjacent.


    Dude, show some example of your hypothesis with scripture, otherwise I have no idea what you're babbling about.

    There is no ''god of deism'', there is ''God'', or there are ''gods''. The Deists believe that ''God'' created the universe, then left it to it's own device. They do not worship God, and they don't believe in God (unless you think that to believe something is the same as ''believing in something)

    And please don't bother to respond unless you can show where I present what could be considered ''my concept of God''.

    Even more importantly, the reality is that all concepts of God come from scripture. All I do is shut out the noise and concentrate on the source. Once we establish the source then we can venture outward.

    Unlike you, i am not concerned with competition for spiritual advancement (must be your darwinistic level of consciousness), for anyone with a smattering of understanding of theism would understand that.

    God's nature is defined in every scripture, and no one has to pretend to read them.



    jan.
     
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  7. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    The ''theory of evolution'' implies that life itself evolved by a purposeless, unguided, natruralist, unintelligent process.
    The fact of evolution (micro) doesn't.

    jan.
     
  8. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    wegs,

    God's sovereignty (not role) would diminish because ''nature'' would be acting randomly, without authority, without intelligence, and without purpose, meaning that these qualities are just as authoritative as their opposites. That being said ''what is the point of God''.
    And that not a rhetorical question.

    Yes, but why use evolution to create forms?
    Why not create forms and just use evolution to adapt the forms of life to the various situations that may occur? That makes more sense.
    We know that life evolves, and we know that animals do not turn into completely different animals (unless you have real evidence).
    Why bother with darwinian evolution? Is it not just a waste of time?

    jan.
     
  9. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    Why kill your son to forgive mankind why not just forgive them? That makes more sense.

    Sense and the bible do not go together well.

    The whole idea of God being omniscient is something that is not supported by the bible anyway.
     
  10. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Jan;

    As we know, a theory in science doesn't mean a guess. It also doesn't mean a law.
    The theory of evolution by natural selection is our best explanation if you will for the "fact" of evolution. It as close as we can get to fact. It has been tested for over 100 years and is supported by relevant scientific studies and observations.

    A theory is an explanation of natural occurrences built up logically from hypotheses that have been tested.

    So, to say why not just create forms doesn't make sense.

    Faith in a Creator doesn't require me to abandon science. In fact, the two are close cousins, my opinion.
    Faith is merely the belief in something not yet proven or seen.

    If anyone honestly believes that man was created out of "nothingness" where does he get that idea? Genesis? A book that if we were to chronologically go from right now to Adam, we are to presume that man has only been around some 6000 years? Hmmm...faith doesn't mean we play dumb.

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    Now, there are those speculations about a/the "missing link" in the evolutionary process.

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    Could make for a very interesting thread.

    I will address your other point later. Hope that clarifies my own personal stance.
     
  11. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    sideshowbob,

    Supreme Controller means He does what He likes.

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    How God creates can be found in scriptures.

    jan.
     
  12. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Where?

    I used to think this too, but it is near impossible to reconcile Genesis with science showing us that man existed long before the Adam/Eve timeframe. Our existence points to an evolutionary process.
     
  13. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    wegs,

    Do you agree that one kind of animal eventually gives rise to another kind?

    Why is the above idea an explanation of natural occurences? Where in nature do we see such occurences?

    From your perspective, how did life originate on this planet?

    Why do you have faith in God?
    Who and what is God, to you?

    Where in genesis does it say ''man was created out of nothingness''?

    That is assuming Adam and Eve were the first humans ever, but the Bible doesn't say that. In fact there is nothing that indicates this idea at all, and loads of info that contradicts it.

    As I said to Rav, this is about ''theism'' not ''religion''.

    There's no need to find a ''missing link'', as far as the pop science culture is concerned darwinian evolution is a fact. It's all over the tv programmes, billboards, books, movies, documentaries, light entertainment, etc..... All forms of theism is ridiculed publicly, without proper defensive representation.

    jan.
     
  14. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Genesis 2:

    "This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens . . . And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

    The first man.

    Genesis 2: "And the Lord God said, 'It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.' Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them."

    The first man was named Adam.

    Genesis 2: " And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man."

    God created the first woman.

    Genesis 3: "And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living."

    The first woman's name was Eve.

    It is an odd paradox that the more religious someone is, the less familiar with the Bible they are.

    Right. Which is why Christmas isn't allowed to be celebrated here in the US. It's why no one gets Sundays off. It's why no one in the US goes to church. It's why there are no threads about religion on any forums in the US. It's why Bill O'Reilly isn't allowed to broadcast. Because religious types aren't allowed to express themselves.
     
  15. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Jan;

    Genesis states that God made Adam out of dust; eve out of his rib. So, no evolutionary process there.
    Genesis is the story of the origin of man. The abrahamic faiths teach that we are all descendants of Adam and Eve.

    You say ...this about theism not religion. Doesn't matter what we are talking about.
    Genesis is a story about the origin of man. An atheist will see it as a potentially interesting story and nothing else. Some theists will see it as fact and other theists like me, see it as a metaphor for a variety of things, namely cause and effect and morality.

    I believe in God, jan but I don't ignore science. We can't make up half truths to support our faith. We can't ignore that we are part of an evolutionary process. To me, a Creator is behind that.

    I'm not trying to talk you into anything but there comes a point where you have to stop being vague and take a firm stand on what you know, and what you have faith in. If you deny that an evolutionary process exists, that doesn't make it so. That's all I'm saying.

    And if you believe that Genesis is the true story of the origin of mankind, then you believe that we (mankind) have only been around for 6000 years, maybe 10,000 because historians account for mortality rates of that timeframe.

    The bible doesn't state that, true. Biblical scholars do who have studied the lineage from Jesus to now. Accounting for all the generations, it adds up to no more than 10,000 years and that is being generous.

    So hmmm! Lol
     
  16. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Not every "form" makes sense in a given environment. Not every "form" can simply adapt to new surroundings, many go extinct. We do know that animals and plants and fungi turn into other ones, it's written into the very structure of their DNA.
     
  17. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    So in order to hold on to your precious beliefs, you will continue to deny the obvious. I think we can end this discussion with you right now, there's really no point in going further, you represent the definition of unscientific thinking. I'm sorry if reality contradicts your ideology.
     
  18. arauca Banned Banned

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    A donkey and a horse produces a mule , and stops there and so if their number of chromosome are more the 4 in difference they just the hybrid don't reproduce
     
  19. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    To this point, scientists believe we share a common ancestor with modern African apes that existed some 5 to 8 million years ago.
    Shortly after, the species divided into separate lineages.

    One evolved into gorillas, etc and the other into humans.

    I'm being simplistic but it's a far cry from dust.


    Jan, I'm just wondering what do you believe? I'm just looking for clarity because stuff gets lost in translation 'round here.

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  20. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    We don't know the mind of God.

    Going with that, how could anyone write Genesis? I grew up with "the bible is divinely inspired." Well, now that I'm an adult, I ask myself, why would God then not tell the early church fathers (who compiled the bible!!) about evolution?

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    It stands to reason that Genesis isn't to be taken literally.

    If you believe it as literal jan, can u tell us why at least?
     
  21. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    .....


    What obvious thing have I denied?

    Why is anything in my quote ''unscientific?

    And please stop trying to derail my thread, if you don't like it go elsewhere.

    jan.
     
  22. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    What does this have to do with anything.

    jan.
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Well, one answer there is that they didn't - two people wrote it. Genesis 1 and the first few sentences of Genesis 2 were written by the Priestly source, and uses the term "Elohim" to refer to God. Most of Genesis 2 was written by the Jahwist source and uses the term "Yaweh" to refer to God. Both creation stories were likely based on earlier Sumerian creation stories.
     

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