Is Israel "Stolen land"

Are we talking about religious right here? Or right of self determination?

The zionism part is all crap, btw.

 

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I don't buy into the religious argument either, being one of those liberal atheist Jews myself... we were probably influenced too much by the Greek philosophers.

 

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If you really want to look at the big picture all land is stolen.

 

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Escaping religious persecution? What a joke. The Jews were more than content in Britain and America; the fact is, the Jews, by and large, had no interest in fighting for a homeland in the centre of the Arab world. A few prominent and influential Zionists actively persuaded the governments of many nations to help in the endeavour of establishing a Jewish homeland. They also did their best to convince regular Jews that a homeland in Palestine was of their best interest. Oh, and the ideology of "Religious Zionism" is completely contradictory to its very own holy scriptures: the Jews cannot claim a homeland without the return of their Messiah. Clearly, the Zionists have never truly cared about the well-being of the Jews, and the necessity to help remove them from areas of religious persecution.

IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:
a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and
b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and
c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.

2.
IS IT TRUE that the Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.

3.
IS IT TRUE that the answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments:
a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees.
b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war.
c) No ransom will be paid

http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Documents/tenquestions.cfm

 

i recall herzel spent hes own money to promote hes solution to the jewish problem. ironically, he cared for jews so much hes entire family died as a result, during and after the holocaust. many zionist leaders and fighters are holocaust survivors, some of them from my very own family. reading neturi karta website isnt going to help you to understand jews better. they arent even considered jews to many orthodox jews, because of their recent actions and statements.

more over, the first zionist came from very religious houses and received religious teaching from young age, including hehad haam.

 

Theodor Herzl never personally faced any type of religious persecution growing up. However, I would never place Herzl in the same category as Weizmann or such Zionists. Herzl simply wanted a homeland - other Zionists made sure it was to be a homeland in an already occupied Palestine. So for that, I have some respect for Herzl.

Bullshit. Most Zionists were nowhere near the conflict, and were only concerned about their own political aspirations. The fact that they rejected offers to remove Jews from areas of danger into refuge is a well-known historical event.

Most people on the Jews-against-Zionism websites are Orthodox Jews.

 

Land itself shouldn't belong to anyone. Land belongs to the Earth and all who walk upon it both human and critters. Let no fences stop anyone from walking anywhere or resting anywhere they would want for the Earth takes nothing for what it provides us with.

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you never heard of the draifus affair?

actually that is untrue. jews from israel participated in the fighting with the british, some were partizans, others fought with the france resistance. many future leaders, such as begin for example, were holocaust survivors.

there are many jews who fall under the description of orthodox - they do not consider neturei karta as jews. in fact, they were even beat up by othodox jews.

im very well active inside many communities. i dont think they really understand how well the neturei karta have establish themselves as right front jews. perhaps more action in this regard is needed to make it clear netirei karta are actually a rouge faction.

 

No, actually, it is true. The only Zionists in Israel were the ones under the patronage of Baron Rothschild. The overwhelming majority of the Jews in Palestine resided in Jerusalem, Safed, Tiberias, and Hebron for religious reasons. They had no involvement or interest in Zionism.

I don't think it's fair for you to say who is and isn't a Jew. They are all well-educated Jews, many of whom are Rabbis, that oppose Zionism. Curiously, they seem to be growing in numbers as Israel's barbarity towards the Palestinians increases. They have sound religious arguments against "Jewish" Zionists, and they know the shameful history of the role Zionists played in the Holocaust to establish a homeland in Palestine.

 

jews of hebron were safe until 1929. so were the jews in tiberia until 1938, and even in jerusalem. the arab massacres on th jews in isreal is very well documented. peace was never in their mind. later, many jews came to israel from various reasons making the majority of the ishuv. there were at least 4,000 israeli soldiers under british command in WWII as i recall-i could be mistaken.

they claim zionists are not jews - and many believe them, or want to. as it is clear they are taken in account despite their small numbers, it is very important for honest jews, who do not categorize non jews as zionists, to make it clear neturei karta are just extreme fanatics who shouldnt be taken seriously.

 

Completely unrelated. I'm debating the Jewish attitude present in Palestine regarding Zionism and the need for an independent state, and you're referring to Arab revolts in response to an unauthorized flooding of Jewish immigrants from Europe into the area years later. Way to dodge the real issue.

That's because Zionism is a political movement, and Judaism is a religion. The keen Orthodox Jews realize the dangers Zionism poses, to Gentiles and Jews alike; they need not look further than Zionist crimes during the Holocaust. These Jews, simply put, cannot forgive the Zionist movement which neglected proposals to help the Jews suffering from persecution. The Zionists have never given a damn about the Jews.

 

the residents in hebron and tiberia were not immigrants, as they lived there for centuries, even before the arabs who lived there. of course, even if that was true, that still doesnt excuse the violent response of the arabs, at least to my opinion.

since you fail to understand, zionism is an aspect of judaisim. a homeland for jews is an idea derived from judaisim. those zionists you talk about were jews themselves, many of whom suffered and lost in the holocaust, others participated in the fighting to help save the jews. some who lived in israel did not even beileve the rumors of the extermination.

if they didnt give a damn about those jews, then they wouldnt have much to work with now would they? as they as a "political movement" wanted a "jewish state". in other words, your own post is filled with internal contradictions.

 

Unfortunately, I'm not successfully getting through to you. The areas I mentioned were inhabited to certain proportions by Jews; of these Jews, the majority of them resided there for religious reasons. The ones who were Zionists were young men under the patronage of Baron Rothschild that came to settle in agricultural colonies in Palestine. The native Jews were there for religious reasons, and were inept to Zionism. Get this through your head.

Wrong. In fact, many Zionists during those times were born and raised in America, where they never faced the Holocaust. Even though they were perfectly content in America, they fought for an independent state in Palestine. You forget how many American Zionists pressured Truman to support Israel's creation.

A Jewish state in name only. The Zionists of the time knew full well that their only chance of getting an independent state was by appearing to use Jewish hardships as their motivation.

 

and what you fail to realize is that those native jews you mentioned were victims to arab violence even more then those "immigrants zionists".

most zionist came from europe. others came from the arab expulsion. saying most zionists never faced the holocaust is false, as israel has the largest number of holocaust survivors. a famous case of this is called the exodus. many similar ships with holocaust survivors were returned back by the british who at the arab ply didnt want any more jews in israel.

so they wanted those jews to die in the holocaust? how do you explain the statement, to fight the british as if there is no war, and fight the war as if there is no white book? do you have any real knowledge of the ishuv reaction to the war? knowledge not coming from jew hating sites that claim zionists wanted the holocaust to happen.

 

Wrong, yet again. Palestine at that time was a land of basic religious tolerance and tranquility. In fact, for several centuries, religious peace had been the rule, and animosity the exception. The Muslim majority of the inhabitants and the small Christian and Jewish minorities lived together in amity and had long accepted and tolerated their differences. During the strong strides of the Zionist movement, there were no Jewish victims in Palestine. The revolts and conflicts started as a direct result of unauthorized flooding of Jewish immigrants into the area. Before this, the Jews were content with their conditions, and didn't practice or espouse, in any way, Zionist ideals.

The most prominent and influential Zionist individuals/organizations never faced Holocaust crimes. The common Jews who followed Zionism may have, but the rich, powerful Zionist leaders never faced any such victimhood.

I wouldn't say they "wanted" the Jews to die in the Holocaust. I would, however, say that they didn't care if Jews died, as long as it helped further their agenda for an independent state to themselves.

 

actually, you are mistaken.
the arabs in and out of israel were never in good relations with the jews. it is known that even during the ottoman rule jews were living under strict rule, not being able to buy any land or develop themselves beyond a certain point. in other words, the arabs were nice to the jews as long as they were not a threat.

it is not surprising, based on your past statements on jews being parasites, you find it reasonable for arabs to violently react to coming foreign immigrants.

first you said the zionists never suffered from the holocaust, now its the most influential ones? well since you changed your argument here is a list of some:

and there are of course, much more and even better examples-this was given only after a brief search.

for themselves? and who is them? were they came from?

 

could someone please tell me what the fuck zionism is i know it has to do with a jewish homeland but beyond that i don't know what the fuck it is but it does seem to be an extremist view point

 

you dont know what it is but you think it is extreme?

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i dont think you really are interested in just wanting to know what it is as it is clear you point of view at it is other then objective, even before knowing what exactly it is.

 

i'm sorry but in a region that is known for being extremly touchy about even slight differences in people moving a people of vastly different beliefs religion and culture into it is stupid and ill advised

 

well the way people talk about to me is compareable to how people talk about extreme ideas so i figured it is a safe bet that it is probably an extreme idea