Is Islam shallow for using sex in heaven as it’s main draw for Muslim men?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Greatest I am, Jun 14, 2013.

  1. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Is Islam shallow for using sex in heaven as it’s main draw for Muslim men?

    70 virgins in heaven. Are Muslim men shallow for falling for such an obvious lie?

    Compare Islam’s heaven to Buddhism. In Buddhism your reward for following it is enlightenment and all knowledge of the universe and life.

    The prize for Muslims is to offer you indulgences in excess sex. Wisdom is not mentioned, or if it is, I have not heard of it.

    Muslims. Is such a heaven really something to strive for and be proud of?

    Allah's heaven seems better suited to the feeble minded and those who can't comprehend the nuances of reality or want to live in a porn movie. It's truly fast food for the masses, an advertisement that everyone can comprehend because it appeals to one's basest drives. Our Sexuality.

    Do you really picture Jesus and Mohamed in heaven with a bunch of virgins moving on and off their engorged members?

    Do you picture Mary, watching such activity with pride?

    Does PBUH stand for ---- Pieceoftail Be Upon Him?

    Regards
    DL
     
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  3. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    Killing in the name of
     
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  5. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    As in... do you really think anything is really done in the name of Allah? or Jesus?

    Excuses. Justifications. Focal points.
    Your way, my way, the highway. The only thing the disenfranchised ever needed was a franchise.
     
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  7. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    70 Virgins... Dang I have enough trouble dealing with one woman. They are insane I tell you.

    @ OP,
    So 70 virgins.... You did not specify what sex... maybe they 70 virgin men the straight guys get.
     
  8. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, it's VERY shallow!
     
  9. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

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    72, not 70. Don't want to short change the martyrs.
     
  10. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

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    Extremely shallow, yes. But you see the sexually oppressive, medieval values society they live in and see that Islam is still a young religion [like Chrisitianity was during the crusades] and you see why it floats.

    Btw, PBUH obviously means Pasta be upon Him.
     
  11. arauca Banned Banned

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    What happen if a Woman sacrifice herself, does she gets 70 virgin male ?
     
  12. scifes In withdrawal. Valued Senior Member

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    I'm a fundamental muslim and I only remember hearing of the seventy something virgins reward from non muslim sources discussing muslims.
     
  13. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

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    All of the virgins in heaven are Catholic Nuns!
     
  14. arauca Banned Banned

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    would you agree about seven ? If it is a lie say so . I don't believe my self, but some mula might be bastards to encourage some less literate .
     
  15. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Basically yes. One wonders what's in it for the women, but hey, they don't count. Islam is not alone in using sex as a method of social control. If you can control this most basic urge, you can control anything about one's personal life.

    Even though the Qur'an does not mention the number of virgins, it does say in verse 56:36[26] that Muslim men will be awarded with virgins in Paradise. The Qur'an describes their physical attributes, for example they will have large eyes (56:22) and big breasts (78:33)[19] and so on. The actual number of houri is thus a minor issue and 72 is the number of those houris confirmed in multiple hadith. The hadiths are a crucial part of Islam and certain Muslims ignore them because sometimes they contain uncomfortable details about Islam.

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/72_Virgins
     
  16. scifes In withdrawal. Valued Senior Member

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    Islam is not alone in using sex as a method of social control. If you can control this most basic urge, you can control anything about one's personal life.
    Indeed the Quran does not seem as explicit in defining the after worldly rewards which are specific to women as it does for men, as do the other abrahamic religions I think.
    I think that is due to both that old religions saw men as the main moving force of society and women rather more passive in nature. Also men seem to be more attached -more affected- by their carnal selves than women.
    It is worth mentioning that the description of the rewards are general for people, individuals in general. And are psychological or intangible as they are tangible, the former maybe being more stressed than the latter. Specific descriptions of food, furniture or physical attributes of people in heaven(and the same for hell) are used to exemplify the state of existence those people will be in. A state of no fear, perfect state of mind and harmony between everyone, getting whatever you want yet never getting bored of it, etc of things which aren't really fully comprehensible. Personally the only way I see it will work is if we were rewired fully as not to resemble our current human self, but perhaps be able to relate to and remember it. Like adults remembering the children they once were.

    But yes; I can't think of a mentioned tangible form of pleasure promised to women in the quran, sexual or otherwise. And, I can't think of something mentioned specifically for men other than the houri's, or virgins as everyone calls them. everything else is mentioned for both sexes.

    As a matter of fact, what I just realized writing that last sentence, in conjunction with my planned reply for the second part of spider's post, plus a separate point I was gonna mention; yes actually, women have been promised things specific to them, although implicitly.
    First the two separate points;
    1. Women are not excluded from the heaven and hell business, a lot of reward has been hanged on treating them well, granted the capacities they're mentioned in are those of mothers, daughters and family members in general, and not astronauts, secretaries or engineers, but that's another story. Heaven is said to be under the feet of mothers in one hadith. And in another the companionship of your mother is distinctively valued three times over the companionship of your father. So men may rule the islamic world but their mothers' voices have three times the bearing of their fathers', and their own voices to their children are outweighed 3:1 by their wives. A sad trick to tell women they have no value unless they sit home and hatch babies? maybe, but a bit irrelevant to this thread.
    2. I'm not sure how the paradise-native houris are "allocated" to the migrating male population, but I know that earthly couples remain as couples. What about those who married twice or loved more than one or are tangled in a love triangle or one way relationships where one loves and the other doesn't care? I don't know, but in a wonderland where all the rules are bent and fantasies become realities I can think of more than one way that it can work out, its "authenticity" may be challenged, but I see it fully possible.
      Now in trying to navigate my way with the terminology here, specifically the term houri's vs. virgins, I realized that you may be missing the difference, houris are supposedly paradise natives, created there and have been there forever, never down to earth. On the other hand, everyone in heaven is a virgin, including earthly female wives, and are perpetually so. They are also in their physical and mental prime, both males and females, and never deteriorate.
    From the second point you can see that the perfectly beautiful description of the females in heaven is actually a promised reward to muslim women as well, maybe because as much as its a male's tendency to desire it's the female's tendency to desire to be desired. Even in today's courtship, the male picks up the female, the male wants to get, the female wants to be got, and so perhaps in the perfectional description of females in paradise a reward to both.
    IOW, if a woman were to choose between being granted the wish of never aging past her prettiest prime, or getting the sexiest man alive, which would satisfy her more?
    On the other hand, would a man care less how bad he looks once he gets the hottest woman of his dreams?
    I've just realized this while typing up this post. Beautiful.

    True about the hadith.
    I don't instantly recognise the part with the big eyes, but I know the "big breasts" one.
    That is not actually what is said, the word used is actually qawa'ib, which refers to just-matured young women. The root of the word is qa'b, which can both mean the heel of a foot or a cube(I'm sure there are many others), in the form used in the quranic verse, it refers to the women's breasts forming/protruding, not necessarily being big. From the usage of the same word in many instances of medieval/pre-islmic arab poetry, it's clearly seen that the word is used to mean and age group, or a physiological phase in a woman's life. It's kinda like saying early/mid/late teen-girls but specifying a point in the physical development of a woman instead of how many years is her age.
    The verse was saying that they were young, not that they had big breasts.
     
  17. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Is greatestIam shallow for trying to represent mainstream islam by cliches that stand outside of it?
    :shrug:
     
  18. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Point taken. Score one for Islam. I guess it's not as sexist or patriarchal as I thought. [/sarcasm]
    Basically, Islamic heaven has angels and you can fuck them.
     
  19. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    No, because as I pointed out, it's not a cliche. It's in the Quran.
     
  20. scifes In withdrawal. Valued Senior Member

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    Sex in heaven is not Islam's main draw for muslim men as mentioned in the title of the thread.
    GreatestIam IS a shallow poster, but he does touch up on interesting points.
     
  21. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Paradise in general is a major selling point though, don't you agree? Who would sacrifice themselves for the cause if they weren't promised it?
     
  22. scifes In withdrawal. Valued Senior Member

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    It's the only selling point really, it and hell actually.
    It's what makes following god moral and "good". The main incentive/deterrent for all living beings is pleasure/pain, and while some creatures may not feel pleasure, they can all feel pain, which can be seen as the fundamental mover of all living beings, they all are living trying to get away from pain.
    Hell is the point of infinite negative charge which repulses all humans regardless of their definition of pain. To perfect the system, a point of infinite positive charge (heaven) is there to attract all humans regardless of their definition of pleasure.

    Yet there are things which reward very high, albeit finite, amounts of pleasure which people are willing to sacrifice their lives for. I'm surprised you couldn't think of any.

    I also hope you're not still defending the OP as well.
     
  23. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    I don't know if sex is the main attractor. I don't think their conversion rate is very high, mostly they just maintain hegemony over their locations, to the extent of naming them "Islamic", and killing anyone who even approaches a mild criticism of it.
     

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