Is Government Debt Immoral?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Michael, May 26, 2012.

  1. Cavalier Knight of the Opinion Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    157
    I disagree with many of his points, but if you don't think MF Global warrants a criminal investigation, then I don't think you understand what happened at MF Global. Customer funds are, by law, segregated from company money, that $1.2 billion in customer funds were likely used (and definitely "lost") to cover company positions is almost certainly larceny. No fund "accidentally" dips into customer accounts.

    Someone committed a crime, and Corzine was known to be the driving force, involved on a day-to-day, trade-by-trade, basis with MF Global's unhinged trading strategy. Maybe he didn't know about this one thing (and that might save him from criminal charges, but definitely not civil penalties), and maybe Reagan never realized that his administration was selling arms to the Iranians. Anything's possible, but it's pretty gullible to assume that.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...ine-may-be-liable-if-customer-risk-known.html
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    You know, this is a great question. I think it may clarify my position.

    I used to think just like Joe. We agreed on numerous topics. Particularly what a douche GW Bush was

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    I, like Joe, voted for Obama. But, I didn't really stop there. I tried and continue to try and understand how we ended up where we ended up (in 2008). The idea "this was all GW Bush's fault" sounded good, a little too good :shrug:

    Sorry for the side track. So, back to your question.
    Here's a video from a PhD student of Economics: The Job-Killing Impact of Minimum Wage Laws

    When minimum wage was introduced, as I understand, it acted to transfer jobs from the African American community (who'd work for the lower wage) over to the poor white community who wouldn't. Numerous white politicians specifically wanted the minimum wage for this exact reason - and made no bones of it. African Americans were the "Chinese" of the day. Hard working and family oriented. And easily scapegoated for "Whites" not having meaningful gainful employment.


    BUT, this isn't my rational for why I don't support minimum wage. See, we could look up other videos from other economists and they'd probably say the exact opposite (I haven't looked, but, it wouldn't surprise me). One historian interprets history this way and another that way.

    What I do now is ask myself: Is force being used against another person?

    In the case of minimum wage, yes, the business owner is being forced to pay more. The worker is not forced to work for that business. Therefore, because force is being used in a situation that only requires volunteerism, it is immoral and therefor I do not support it. The fact is, if the owner is only offering $0.01 cents an hour. No one will do the work. Both parties have to agree that this is what the wage should be.

    The problem we have in our society is that we have so many regulations it makes it hard to even compete. So the worker feels they are forced to accept the only job in town and therefor feels it's only fair to have a minimum wage. I understand that. Imagine if we got rid of all of those regulations. So that if you owned property, you could open a business. Right there in your front yard if you wanted to. You go buy some chicken. Sizzle it up there in the front yard - if people want to buy it, they buy it. You want to hire someone to cook it, you hire them. You could go to the commons, the public land, set up a little stall for the day. Sell whatever you want to whomever you want.

    No one wants to live in a free society. They can't even stand it when someone pants their own house a color they don't approve of. The want to go to a nice little mall and buy stuff. They want their neighborhood to be perfectly little tidy replicas of their yards. Someone moves in across the street and sets up a shop, oh my, *gasp* my tranquility my vision of my manicured yard is besmirched!

    Our natural inclination is pander, blame, simplify and lash out with force - deadly if need be. I only expect that we will loose more Civil liberties (for our own safety) and more regulations, more taxes and the rich will get richer while the poor get poorer.


    Corzine stole $1.6 Billion (yeah, I read they found $400 million more is missing) and he not only walked away free, but with a $3 million dollar bonus! The rich know how to lead the herd around by the nose. That's for sure. So, what are we to do? How do we know which person to vote for? Which law to support. When smoke is being blown up our arses?

    We use ethics.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2012
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    Six of one, half a dozen of the other. You want me to fund government speculation in the gold market, regardless of any details of where you take the money from.

    That a reserve, not a "buffer of savings."

    And since we already have it, why do we need your mandated gold savings again?

    Is it your contention that our policy as regards reserves in general needs to change? Or what?

    That does absolutely nothing to reduce your exposure to price volatility. Do you even understand what I'm talking about?
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    That's a canard. The USA ranks very close to the top in rankings of ease of doing business:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_doing_business_index

    If there's only one job in town, then the worker is forced to take that one. It's that or starve.

    Our society already works like that. You can do any of those things very easily - all it takes is a few quick forms and signatures, and you're up and running. In some cases it doesn't even require that much.

    Is your whole complaint here that you'd have to then do some accounting to keep track of what you took in, and how much taxes you owe? Or what?
     
  8. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    Milton Friedman gives a talk on this subject as well...but he doesnt touch on the offshoring aspect of minimum wage laws, which is so important.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca8Z__o52sk

    These laws are responsible for a colossal outflow of wealth to nations that manufacture low skill products.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2012
  9. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    Did I say that an investigation of MF Global was not warranted? No, I never said such a thing. And MF Global and Corzine are being investigated.

    At this point it is not clear if a crime was committed or if what occurred at MF Global was just the result of incompetence. In either case MF Global leaders, including the board of directors are likely to find themselves civilly liable for damages inflicted on their investors. But that is a different issue and not the issue under discussion with Michael.

    Michael has been arguing that Corzine is criminally guilty and is not being investigated because he has in the past raised funds for the Democratic Party. One, Corzine is being investigated. Two, Corzine like every American is entitled to the due process of law. And three, there is no evidence that Corzine is criminal culpable at this point and there is no evidence that he has received special treatment because of his past fund raising activities.

    If evidence is found that Corzine is criminally culpable, then Corzine should be brought to justice just like anyone else. Trying and convicting Corzine without evidence and without due process is unAmerican and a violation of law in and of itself.


    Certianly regardless of criminal liability, Corzine and the entire leadership at MF Global is potentially liable to investors for damages. But that has nothing to do with the discussion here with Michael.
     
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    Luckily I'm hammered

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    So, don't expect too much sense. Plus, I'm fricken going to Japan again in two days and blah blah blah whine whine whine....

    So, I was listening to Thom Hartmann who had US Senator Bernie Sanders on (1 hour) and yeah, we agree. I mean, I'm one of those idiots that donate to my Youtube channels. I wonder, do other people do that?


    where was I.

    Oh, yeah: "Or what"? We all want the same thing. We want a prosperous healthy educated society. It's a question of how do we get there? I think we get there through transitioning to a moral society. Where ethics form a cental plank in how we decide what we do and do not do. ... that's a lot of do's

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Bernie Sanders is a politician, he's good at kissing arse, but he's also a good person (I think so anyway - he is a politician). The thing is, he's not thinking clearly.

    Example: He states, The Chinese are working for for pennies an hour. We can't compete. How can we be expected to have a decent living against that?

    :bugeye:

    Wha Wha Wha What? You're telling me someone is willing to work for free, or nearly so, and give YOU ALL of the fruits of their labor AND this is ruining YOUR life? Maybe their life yes. Your life no! Oh, but if we live in a system where your only obligation is to be milked, well, yeah, maybe ... poor you.

    You can see how crazy his argument is?!?!

    When someone can work for me for free and that's good for them and bad for me - we have a fundamental problem here.

    So? How do we figure it out? Ethics. We go to ethics. Create an ethical society. THEN I am confident we will be prosperous. This means making some serious structural changes. Changes that will take, IMO, over a hundred years. Not that they have to, but that they will.

    Think about it. How many times have you told me to leave my own country? You don't find that odd? How often is society, the way we think, right? Look back into history and think about that.
     
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    I wonder if that's due to our access to the money? I mean, we only seem to be able to get 'things' if we have official 'money'. We only get money by labor.

    AND YET, things can be made for free and sent here. Why are they sent here? Oh, for our money. But what happens when we have no labor? We have no money? Oh, but the money people print us some money. Then we use a credit card to buy stuff on loan.

    That seems weird. If we had out own money, then we wouldn't need credit cards. Then when we didn't have labor, we probably wouldn't buy things because people wouldn't take, "thanks for your stuff" for money.

    Did I mention I was hammered? See, there's these new 500mL Becks. I can really only drink Becks, Lowenbrau or maybe a cider (but only 1 or 2). Now, what happens when you have a 500mL can is you drink it like it was a 330 bottle.... that can lead to unintended drunked postings

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  12. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    No, it's not an either/or. An incompetent criminal (like that douche Corzine) is still a criminal.

    I mean, incompetence is perfectly legal. Incompetently stealing money, now that there's a crime

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Competently stealing money, like say that douche Blankfiend or Diamon, well, that's sadly given a pass. Corzine, being a dipshit isn't given a pass. Yeah, I know, it's quite unfair... but, thems the eggs.... LOL
     
  13. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    Bernie is right Michael...and one of the few good people in the Senate.

    The US is sending China $400 billion of its wealth every year...does that sound like FREE?

    Its not just the pennies an hour we pay for...its the price of the means of production, management, raw materials, shipping.
     
  14. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    Exactly right...the US has been exporting printed debt dollars for years.

    If all those dollars came home at once...you would soon be paying $1000 for you know what...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!




    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  15. wellwisher Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,160
    The $500B we pay on interest for the national debt could pay for 10,000,000 new teachers at $50K per year. Instead this money is pissed down the drain so we can prop up incompetence.

    Businesses will also borrow money. But they know how to use that borrowed money, as a primer, for an economic pump that will then generate wealth and create jobs,more than it borrowed. The government only knows how to borrow and spend and has no sense of getting a return on investment.

    As an analogy, the government is like the group of hunters who go out to gather food that will feed the tribe. We load the hunting party up with supplies, equivalent to a half of cow of meat. After many weeks of hunting they return with a chipmunk. Next, time they complain they need even more supplies if we expect them to gather enough food for all. After a while we are better off not even hunting, since the price of the rituals far exceeds the practical results of the rituals.

    Currently the hunters are trillions in debt, for all of us, and we don't even know where they blew the money. All we know is the average government worker is making more in salary and benefits than the average tax payers who is stuck with the tab. Incompetence is not worth that price. The hunters eat very well while the rest are not getting anything but debt.
     
  16. kx000 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,134
    How are we in debt as a race? We have homeless people, and people who don't contribute to society, thats all. Simple Simon, those who don't contribute don't receive.
     
  17. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,152
    By that same analysis, Congress could simply authorize 10M federally paid teaching jobs, and add it to the rest of the budget. They must not need 10M federally paid teachers or presumably there would be a bill to do it/

    So what do you mean, "instead"?

    Who is paying the interest on the national debt?

    Explain exactly how federal debt is the cause of anything.

    That goes for all of the rest of you who seem to think that debt causes something. I haven't yet found evidence of it. Did your taxes go up? Have they cut your power, your water? And the cuts that were made, weren't they just to reduce the debt?

    What's really going on, that's what I would like to know.
     
  18. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    Its like making soup...diverse ingredients gets blended into a singular taste experience that makes it difficult to determine direct links between cause and effect.

    Does the interest paid on the national, state and local debt affect the budgets and therefore your tax bill and services...you bet!
     
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    Again, I don't think this is correct reasoning.

    Firstly, we send China paper and the Chinese send us actual products. Like Platstation3 or iPhones at ultra cheap prices. As an example: I went to the toy store to buy my niece a toy. I had a choice between a mini-computer with a color screen and video learning game for $55 dollars (included one game) made in China -OR- a netted bag (the kind oranges come in) with some hard plastic poorly made balls (that had a plastic smell to them) for $12 made in USA.

    I bought the computer.


    What this means is that the people who would have worked in a factory in the USA, can instead spend their time doing something much more productive as they needn't waste their life on an assembly line producing cheap crap. They can do meaningful work, such as invent the next internet something or other, the next medical breakthrough, etc....

    See how this works?



    Imagine our island again. All 10 people have to work all day catching fish. One day one person makes a net and can catch enough fish in 1 hour to feed everyone. Now everyone is unemployed, but they now have the time to create something else. The society is more prosperous.

    Now, let start again. All 10 people have to work all day catching fish. One day someone notices there's a pool of water that has fish in it all the time and all you have to do is reach in when you want one. This effectively puts everyone out of work. But the society is more prosperous because they now have the time to build those boats they were always talking about. The Chinese are that net, the pool. If we didn't have Chinese working for next to nothing, we wouldn't have iPhones. Firstly, because they'd be way too expensive to manufacturer in the USA today. Secondly, because of this, no one would invent them as there just wouldn't be a market for $5000 iPhones made in the USA. This then means ALL those other businesses, apps, etc.. wouldn't exist either. We'd be poorer.


    What do you think?


    If having someone making you something for next to nothing is NOT good for the economy, that then suggests there is a fundamental flaw in the monetary system. It can mean nothing else. The entire system would by default be fundamentally flawed.
     
  20. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    There is far more that goes into the production of 'cheap crap' than just working on an assembly line. Somebody had to design and create the assembly line, the factory that contains it, the infrastructure to support the factory, the maintenance, the management, the shipping fleet...all meaningful work.

    All these things are contained in the final retail price you pay in the store...as well as the cost of the store itself.
     
  21. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,152
    I would think it would be very evident. If you can't easily identify some tangible result - something that harms you - there must not be any.
    You're talking about bonds. Have you checked the interest rates lately? They're at 0.00% (personal savings bonds). The rates in the last few years have been under a few percent. This is a bargain for the government. They can build needed infrastructure with cheap money now, and the project will actually be worth more in the future.

    It looks to me like a simple matter of exploiting the the value of money vs the time value of goods.

    I gather your taxes haven't gone up, and that you haven't personally been deprived of anything on account of government debt. So why are people complaining about taxes? Where does this bogus claim come from? I just don't get it. Is half the country living in a state of delusion? Taxes are either going up or their not. How hard is that to determine?

    As for the states that cut their budgets, I don't think that had much to do with federal debt. They primarily get their funds from state sales taxes and/or state income taxes, vehicle road and registration taxes and maybe a small portion from various state licenses. They have lost some income due to the post-crash recession. But they still have huge budgets. In many cases these budget cuts seem to be primarily political. (Although different states will tend to have different issues.)

    Doesn't it seem odd to you that so many people can think something is hurting them, and yet they can't identify where it hurts?
     
  22. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    As I have challenged you several times before, where is your evidence of criminal behavior on the part of Corzine? You don't have it. And until you do you are slandering Corzine.

    When you have some evidence and probably cause of criminal behavior then you will have an arguement for arrest and trial, until then you have nothing. In this country Michael, we investigate first, find probable cause and then we arrest people.
     
  23. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    Imagine you have a personal budget surplus of $600...so your wife packs you into the car and off you go to HomeDepot. She buys a lamp for $200, a mirror for $200, and a bar fridge for $200. But then on the drive home you suddenly realize you need to buy a pressure washer, which costs $200.
    But you have zero dollars left, so you cant buy it.

    Not being able to buy what you want is the effect...but what is the cause? Is it because your wife bought a lamp...or was it the fridge?

    Impossible to say...now imagine this scenario involves hundreds of other elements and millions of other players on a national or even global scale.
    How difficult would it be to determine cause and effect?

    This is why economics is so subject to partisan exploitation....cherry picking causes for certain economic effects based on political affiliation.

    Someone on the left will say interest rates are rising because deficits are too high because of tax cuts to the wealthy.

    Someone on the right will say interest rates are rising because deficits are too high because of excessive spending on education.

    And around it goes...ad infinitum.



    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012

Share This Page