Is currency evil?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by DestroyCurrency?, Oct 2, 2013.

  1. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Arne Saknussemm: The atheists you know are atypical. Most atheists have scientific backgrounds & are not superstitious.

    At least I & the atheists I know are not superstitious.
     
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  3. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Fortunately my parents, even though they did not have scientific backgrounds, were atheists. They inherited this from their parents (on my mother's side) or grandparents (on my father's side), who came here to escape the tyranny of Christians and their churches in Europe.

    I was seven before I even heard of religion. When I did, I laughed my head off, assuming it was a clever joke invented by the other seven-year-old who told me about it. I didn't understand why he did not appreciate my laughter. When I asked my mother about it, she got a resigned look on her face and admitted very sadly that many grownups think that joke is real.

    That's when I became (as one of my teachers dubbed me) "the world's youngest cynic." How can you teach a child to have respect for adults if they so easily fall for this bullshit?
     
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  5. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    as/re theism vs atheism:
    “There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

    ..................
    back to money:

    Money is power
    power corrupts
    money both aids the development of a society, while corrupting that society.

    If history is any indication of the future, concentration of monetary power in the hands of the few will eventually bring about the destruction of the polity which issues the money.
     
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  7. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    If only one has evidence of that.
    My philosophy can dream of quite a few things.
    The reality of those dreams have yet to be demonstrated.
    I don't think the conclusion (if that is what it is) is true.
    Money is a means for development and a cause of corruption.
    Society, regardless of how it is run, will contain a need for development and an element of corruption.
    We just happen to utilise money to be the facilitator of both.
    But whatever you want to call that facilitator - what enables one will give rise to the other, at least while society has a limitation of resources.
    If there is no opportunity for that power to be obtained by anyone else other than those who already hold it, I might agree.
    But money is not necessarily like that.
    The "American Dream" is that anyone can achieve success if they work hard etc.
    The issue comes when those that have power (or, as you equate it: money) not only prevent anyone else from reaching their position, but also do with that power what goes against the ethics of the majority.
     
  8. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    5,160
    Money and power are two sides of the same coin. Like a coin, only one side shows at a time in free societies. The President has the most power of anyone in the US, but he can't personally use this power to make as much money as his power indicates. The most powerful man cannot use power to be the richest man due to the two sided coin only shows one side at a time. As cultures form socialists dictatorships, top positions of power, can use their position of power to become billionaires. First one needs to get rid of money (business) which offers a checks and balance by keeping the coin two sided.

    Having a lot of money in a free society does not guarantee you will have as much power as your money, since you can't buy elections for yourself. Bill Gates is not automatically president due to money=power, since the coin has two separated sides. Because of the two sided coin, the billionaire can only help buy elections for others who will wield the power. He can lease power with money at a better rate. Power, that gets the lease fee, can't use this money for personal fortune, but gets to enjoy it as a campaign contribution and expense accounts. The coin is still separated into two sides. In dictatorships, starting with lots of money allows one to buy an army and/or propaganda machine, which can be used to grab power, so one can then steal money.

    The power of government comes down to money collected by taxes. If there were no tax revenues there would be no life blood for power. The tax money lifeblood of power, works like a siphon where the taxes from last year (end of the siphon) sets the potential to enforce the stealing of taxes this year. It pays for the army that will shake down the citizens for next years pay. One does not have the option to pay taxes or not, or how much you think is fair or where it should go. Power decides all that for you, with their own power (ambitions) in mind.

    The money side equivalent of this would be having business being able to force you to buy goods and services you don't need or want. They would be able to act like a mafia protection racket offering services you can't refuse. Money can't do this, but will need power to set it up. This is called ObamaCare, where power uses force of law to take money from the consumer and give it to preferred business, under the guise they are doing you a favor. This is also called Fascism, where government has too much power, but allows pockets of preferred big money, with the peasants put under the squeeze, in the middle, taxed and forced to buy, so they have less money and power, to resist either money or power.

    Money can't make you buy what you don't wish to buy, nor can money force you to go into debt, unless power is helping. Money has to use persuasion and marketing which are regulated with laws like truth in advertising. Power is not regulated with truth in advertising laws, with lying allowable. If a business lies about a product, what will happen? Fines and/or jail. If power lies about a product what will happen? Nothing but social outrage or more lying to disrupt the truth. Power makes the laws that expand itself, not limit itself. If money could lie to the consumer it would expand money. Power is more corrupt than money since it has more options for corruption and fewer restrictions.

    Money and power in the USA, is a two sided coin, but with one side of the coin loaded to fall more often as the source of corruption. We need to elect people periodically, to disrupt power from getting to fixed into corruption. We don't elect business leaders, in open elections. Picture if we elected CEO's of major corporations like we do political offices. The result would be incompetence due to rhetoric, lies and mud slinging. This would lead to a major decline in the efficiency of business and the economy. The election process is needed by power to turn over system wide inefficiencies and corruption inherent with power, so people who are not qualified don't have power for too long.

    However, consolidation of power also works on the siphon principle. Once the siphon of power is working, the energy of the falling water at the end of the siphon, is pulling a vacuum to draw more water at the beginning of the siphon. The corruption of power that appears today, will be used to load the dice for their chosen leaders of tomorrow so power continue to flow via the siphon. Elections are needed to add a wild card to the process. They add an air bubble to the siphon of power so the corruption it reset and a new siphon needs to be set up by power. Washington establishment of both parties is fighting the air bubble of new leaders, by means of power by presenting self serving choices.

    Say we had voluntary taxes, where we can choose to spend or not spend and where we want to spend, with politicians bounds by laws of truth of advertising, with various government agencies and programs competing for tax donations. If the liberals like social programs they buy into it with their tax money. If conservatives like the war machine they buy into that. It would be a free market government that would make it hard to set up the power siphon, due to constant air bubbles created by entrepreneurs in a free market.

    If we made money in the image of power. it is not so pretty. but would look like the mafia protection racket with poor products at high cost, being forced on you, or else the thugs will appear to collect.
     
  9. psikeyhackr Valued Senior Member

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    I could not possibly trust your glorious government. The one we have can't think of something as simple as making double-entry accounting mandatory in the schools.

    I think the United States could have eliminated poverty by 1990 but instead we manufacture junk and ignore the depreciation of that junk. There were 200,000,000 cars in the US by 1995. Ever heard any economists discuss what we lose on the depreciation of that many cars every year?

    http://www.spectacle.org/1199/wargame.html

    Nobel Prize winning economists can't do algebra for the last 50 years. LOL

    psik
     
  10. Locust Registered Member

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    Currency isnt bad. One of the solution for today economy is local currency.
     
  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    I get what you are saying but you need to look a bit deeper. If it were not money , man would covet something else. It could be goats. It could be sexual partners. It could be cars. It could be anything. The "evil" is inside man, not the object.
     
  12. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Based on what you have written, I have to question your knowledge of accounting, depreciation and economics. GDP is a measure of value created over a period of time, a year. Since everything is new, there is nothing to depreciate. GDP is not a valuation of past production. It is a measure of current production. Therefore there is nothing to depreciate. You and your ilk want to depreciate all historical production against current production and that doesn’t make any kind of accounting sense. It is nonsense. It manna of the many crazies we have in society today who are fed and nourished by right wing nuts who use ignorance and demagoguery to enhance their pocketbooks. And as for children, I would much rather they take a course in logic than accounting. I don’t know where your kids went to school, but my kids did take courses in accounting in grade school. I had to wait until college before I took accounting classes.

    Depreciation is an accounting concept used to spread cost of capital goods over an estimated life time of the asset. And there are different methods of depreciation (i.e. accelerated depression). Depreciation is a theoretical accounting concept to match revenues with costs in order to derive a theoretical profit or loss that you want to carry to extremes. That is why cash flow analysis is critical in evaluation of financials. You can and we have seen numerous cases of companies going bankrupt all while showing profits.

    So before you go pointing fingers at others you need to reevaluate yourself.
     
  13. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    What is "local" currency and why do you think it is better? The founding fathers tried "local" currency, it didn't work. That is one of the reasons they created the US Constitution.
     
  14. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Money isn't evil but those who use it wrongly are.
     
  15. Locust Registered Member

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    Local currency is type of alternative currencies. You didnt hear about it since its against globalization but make local community stronger.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_currency
    There are MANY examples of good practice in todays world. In history only experiment Im aware was Worgl experiment. And it was successfull.

    Wörgl was the site of the "Miracle of Wörgl" during the Great Depression. It was started on July 31, 1932, with the issuing of "Certified Compensation Bills", a form of currency commonly known as Stamp Scrip, or Freigeld. This was an application of the monetary theories of the economist Silvio Gesell by the town's then-mayor, Michael Unterguggenberger.

    The experiment resulted in a growth in employment and meant that local government projects such as new houses, a reservoir, a ski jump and a bridge could all be completed, seeming to defy the depression in the rest of the country. Inflation and deflation are also reputed to have been non-existent for the duration of the experiment.[citation needed]

    Despite attracting great interest at the time, including from French Premier Edouard Daladier and the economist Irving Fisher,[3] the "experiment" was terminated by the Austrian National Bank on the September 1, 1933.[4][5]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wörgl

    edit:interesting note- banks and corparations cant suck money from your town and spent it elsewhere because its "worthless" elsewhere. they must spent it in your town.
     
  16. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    This is basically Keynesian monetary policy on a micro scale. But your notions about "locality" don't make sense. A currency is worthless if it cannot be traded. It defeats the reason for having a currency.
     
  17. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    In John L Lewis's day most coal miners were paid in "script" issued by the coal mine company - It never left the valley of the mine and was only good in the company store. There was No. 1 hit song for weeks called: "15 tons" It's chorus went something like this:
    "St Peter, don't you call me as I can't come - I owe my soul to the company store"

    First stanza was like: the big boss said:
    "Well bless my soul - you done loaded 15 tons of No. 9 coal - and what do you get? - Another day older and deeper in debt."
     
  18. Locust Registered Member

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    Oh it can be traded but in local community. Meaning you have to spent money there where you earned it. Why some corporations have own money? That their workers dont spend it elsewhere. For example you have currency lets say 100 pistoleros and you want do haircut and wash your car. You know its cheaper in neigbour town where you going but there dont except pistolero (although they could). So you spent it your town. That way you keep money in your town. You have new haircut and washed car. Person X got those 100 pistolero and he/she spent it elswhere in your town. Person Y got those 100 pistolero. Then person Y wants something from you. Money circulate at higher rate. People are busy. Emlpoyment grows. You have all you need for decent life. If you want more you can work more. But thats not only benefical of local currency. Experiments show wide range of positive effects. Well its a science as you can suggest.

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    I pointed out that specific trait of local currency since its amazing to me that some communties didnt felt at all global crysis. Even better those who felt it when they turn to local currency were recovered. While their country is still going trough strugle. Local currencies are not against government currencies. For example I have Euros and I can exchange it to invented Pistolero. Some exchange to ratio 1:1. But some are smarter. They exchange 100 euros for lets say 90 pistolero. Those 10 are kept for administration or even better for local community. What is driving force of people to switch to local currencies except that they have job and decent life? Well many local communitiy give discharges if you pay in local community. You exchanged 100 Euros for 100 Pistoleros and you want to eat in some restoraunt. You will pay for same dinner 80 pistolero while if you pay in euros you will pay 100 euros.

    The whole economics is "cheated" while any law was not broken and better any economic paradgim is not violated. What you as person need? To work all day in order to survive? We heard many economists argue how every person have right to work and deserve job. Well its true in a sense. But they forgot basics. Person first need food and shelter. He/she doesnt NEED job. You need to eat, freedom, sleep, hapiness et cetera. You dont need to be part of global nexus. Of monster that we feed every day. You can live in "West" and have small community which have their currency. Where your citizens help you and eachother that you have customers. You are not affraid of loosing job. You can say okay I will not work today. Because you know customers will be back. Its a new horizone. You have freedom. People are involved. You dont care about stocks falling of skyrocketing. In a sense you live on another planet.

    To adress your comment thats Keynesian monetary policy. No its not. Rather neo-classic monetary policy.

    edit: what happened to Detroit? auto industry went where is cheaper work force. What about people in Detroit? Who cares? Well those people care.
    Imagine this scenario. You have Mc Donalds in your town. They dont except Pistolero. But you have fast food and give discharge 5% if one pay in Pistolero.
    No one will went to Mc Donalds. You are chepaer(?) and most important they know they are helping community. Because those Pistoleros you earned you cant spent in Tokyo to open new "Mc Donalds". You will give that Pistolero to the person who ate your sandwich again. Ofcourse there is difference between what person need and wish. Im hungry. I could eat nice sandwich to statisfy my need. But I have wish to eat Big Mac. In that case person will went to Mc Donalds. But usualy when people knows that spending money in your place will help them, they avoid going to Mc Donalds. And whats even better when stranger came in your town and hear about it he will exchange his money into your currency. Then you can adjust ratio 100 Euro /90 Pistolero. 10 Euro is spent in community. You are city bank. You are CENTRAL BANK. Not some John Doe. You simply dont give a f##k. And what with those 10 Euro you earned n exchange? You can give credits without interests. Imagine credit without interests. People who got credit are happy. Agian money is spent in community. Community is credited by outsiders. Money circulate.
    If they want to pay in Euro? Well you then give him a price so again you earn. Win/win situation. You become sucking money blackhole. You(citizens) become new boss in your town. Not some corporation from Japan, USA, China, Brasil, India, Germany, Russia you name it. You became a force which no one could easily avoid in your town. "You came in our town, well you have to play by our rules." You make outsiders to invest in your community. Because without local currency you cant charge higher price to outsiders. Its against law.

    That trait of local currency is amazing to me. People are involved in something postive. People are linked. Stress is reduced. Citzens are tight connected. Less cheating, corruption. Highly interesting if you ask me. Its life that we all desire and life that once was.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
  19. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    None of that makes any sense. So if you take a trip from one part of the country to the other, you are going to have to load up on various local currencies? If you don’t trade in an area which lacks the goods you need want, I guess you are just SOL.

    We have been down the many currency routes before, it didn’t work as I previously pointed out. It is costly, it is inefficient, and it is prone to abuse and fraud. If “local” currency worked, people would use it. But it doesn’t and that is why people don’t use it. And the problems you are trying to solve with “local” currency don’t exist.
     
  20. Locust Registered Member

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    Local currencies will never see light of day on global scale. Thats why you dont need to bother with bunch of currencies. You bring dolars, euros. They have exchanges. My solution is local solution since we will never have global solution. Globalization is failed project. We have globalization in communications and corrupt economy but not in culture, language, tradition, customs and most importantly politcs. We cant agree which color is most beautifull and which God is most righteous-sadly.
    Local currency worked and are working. You are just not aware of their existence. Local currency can help , as name suggest, local communities. If that dont make sense to you I think problem is different manner. (like in your beliefs in some scientific paradigm)

    Point of local currencies is that we do what we can to help us and not waiting for economists selling us theories. While we wait that they invent something better we will do all we can to make easier our life. Experiments shows wide range of postive effects. But no because people like you said its nonsense we should stop doing it. Yeah right. I dont believe that behind you stay politic against local currencies but ignorance.

    Again I will ask you ONE simple question. Why some corpoprations have own currencies? For fun? Learn Joe. Learn. Its basic economics.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
  21. Locust Registered Member

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    Sound money. Cryptocurrencies. State banks. LETS programs. Self-issued credit. et cetera.
    We have right to help ourselves-

    Here is some of NUMEROUS links.

    http://www.ithacahours.com/
    [video=youtube;JTMXhSSOBSk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTMXhSSOBSk[/video]

    Wait what did you said "We have been down the many currency routes before, it didn’t work as I previously pointed out"

    [video=youtube;uQehEGGwy0Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQehEGGwy0Q[/video]

    You have a lot to learn.
     
  22. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL, that's funny. There are reasons why no learned person takes the crap you are pushing seriously. Instead of ignoring facts , I suggest you think about them. There are some very major holes in your ideology. I gave you a few of those problems in my previous post.
     
  23. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    It is incredible that this Thread has lasted so long & has so many Posts.

    Inanimate objects cannot be viewed as good or bad. Currency is inanimate. It has no mind, no ambition, no ability to plan.

    Furthermore, how could we run a complex technological culture without it?

    Somebody has already pointed out that a barter system is impractical. It would require a farmer to travel with a truck load of wheat, corrn, whatever & try to trade some of it for a shirt, pair of pants, tool, whatever.

    Until I retired, I made a living as a computer programmer & problem solver. I had a degree in mathematics & physics. How would I trade my services for food, clothes, et cetera without currency or some equivalent to it?

    I am certain that comments similar to the above were Posted early on & often discussed.

    Perhaps some moderator should close this Thread.
     

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