Is Abortion Murder?

The problem the reality based people have with you is that you have several different and conflicting notions of the significance of human life in operation here. On one hand you have no problem treating ectopic pregnancies like garbage, on the other you advocate revoking a grown woman's right to life in the service of an embryo at exactly the same stage of development but four inches away in the internal organs. One one hand you advocate extending the concept of murder from actual children into the womb all the way to conception, on the other you refuse to extend the concept of self defense - necessary for the concept of "murder" - similarly. Nothing here makes sense - there's a missing facftor, that you aren't telling us about. And the woman, likewise, is missing - she has a right to avoid being killed, or badly injured, by other people - true?

 

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That is true when:
-someone uses birth control
-someone stops a rape in progress
-a parent has a discussion with their children over their right to say "no" and how pregnancy happens

Are you opposed to all of those?

 

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I can accept you really do feel this way, lots of people hate the idea of abortion including some/many/most of the women who decide it is the option they should choose. But the second part of your statement confuses me some. Earlier you posted about being faced with parenthood and the option you wanted to be taken at that time. But technically, you didnt have the choice. And while things ended up turning out fine, you do remember the way you felt about not having the choice.

So how do you apply your current position, voting your conscience (which I assume means you would vote to make abortion illegal) when you know exactly what it is like not to have a choice? I mean, didnt you kinda hate the idea you had no choice on whether you became a father at that time?

And along the same lines as above, given you think it is like murder, What would you do if your daughter chose to abort regardless of your offers to help? Would you think she got by with murder? And how would your relationship change If you really have such a position? I cant imagine you would have a murderer-who-got-away-with-it over for thanksgiving. I mean its always easier to throw someone else's kid in prison.

And if it was illegal in your state/country but not across the border, would you still consider it murder if your daughter went across state lines for the procedure?

I am just curious as to how you reconcile these things.

 

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Well, my wife asked me if I was going to leave her. No, I was responsible enough to take on the task. There was no way I would abandon her with a kid on the way. My feeling at the time was that I wasn't thrilled about the prospect of becoming a father, but watching her swell over time was an eye opener. Watching the delivery was also very important. And, of course, raising the kid brought it home. Mind you, I hadn't a problem with kids, I just preferred it when they belonged to someone else.

I believe that I did have a choice, and what I chose was to stay with my wife and deal with the responsibility.

I wised up after they put him in my arms. My son is now 23 years. He's a young man with his life ahead of him. Looking at him I see how abortion would have been a terrible choice. Had I had my way, he never would have been. Terrible, terrible, terrible. I can also look at other people and recognize their unique characteristics that make them individuals, and what a loss it would be if they did not exist. My wife denied me my choice way back when. I'm thankful that she did.

I would love my daughter no matter what she did. Having her life ahead of her, showing a lot of promise and ambition, I would be very disappointed should she become pregnant. Nonetheless, I think an abortion is a terrible thing to carry throughout your life, which is why I believe most women would never resort to it. My daughter is at age to make her own decisions, The law allows her to choose abortion. All I can do is offer my advice and support for the her and her child.

I live in a very liberal state. Yes, I would still consider it murder, but as I said above, I would love my daughter no matter what.

 

It's silly to compare a fetus to a living person, almost all of whom don't want to be killed. What a fetus might want as a future alive person is irrelevant.

 

Bowser, if you were a woman would you choose to be a surrogate for someone so that they wouldn't have an abortion?

 

Yet look what it does, growing, evolving, moving towards something greater. It's purpose is obvious.

 

Ask me when such a thing is possible. I know there are woman who are surrogate mothers for couples, which seems a shame when you consider the number of abortions.

 

You do know that your belief is in error, right? Most women, for example, are perfectly willing to use birth control methods that occasionally cause abortions, in your view.

Meanwhile, if your daughter murders one of your grandchildren Christmas dinner is going to be a bit awkward - don't you think?

 

My belief is that that instinct is present long before birth. Everything in the womb during pregnancy is geared towards the process of life.

 

As I said before, my love for my daughter is unconditional.

 

A Catholic might believe so. I'm all for responsible birth control.

As well they should.

Sounds like good parenting to me.

Of course not. I'm opposed to the destruction of life.

 

I'm asking you now.

Obviously it's a hypothetical situation, hence my use of "if".

 

The topic was Christmas dinner invitations. How about if your son murders your daughter? Or one of your grandchildren? Still going to invite him over, catch up on things?

This is what I suspect: I suspect that if you found out your daughter had been using an IUD for four years while she finished college, you would not react the same as if you found out she had murdered a baby.

 

re: "Reproductive Coercion"↗​

Those are a couple ugly words when paired together like that: Reproductive coercion.

With presidential candidates lining up to ban abortion outright, personhood bills constantly percolating in state legislatures, and even a new campaign to protect certain genetic disorders from abortion―we might also note all that talk about the value and nature of life―we should remember that, while social scientists and rights advocates consider reproductive coercion problematic, it is also the ultimate goal of traditional conservative misogyny.

We're not just down to overlooking the mere proposition, but our political discourse includes calculatons to advance and enforce, to aid and abet, reproductive coercion.

Try that phrase on for size: To aid and abet reproductive coercion.

It's something to keep in mind. After all, most of these fallacious anti-abortion advocacies would claim that's not what they're after, but we've reached a point where it seems those same don't appear to care if that's one of the effects of getting what they want. And, you know, in truth, when lined up alongside concomitant moralistic components, it really doesn't look like an accident.

 

I can't imagine myself

Well, their's a measure of personal pain involved with such a thing. Since neither of my children are psychotic, I don't see that as a relevant question. Despite its lack of probability, I doubt I would see much of my son since he would be incarcerated. Would my love for him survive such a traumatic episode, I think it would, though it would forever alter our relationship considerably.

Again, I have no problem with responsible birth control My understanding is that they don't know for certain how a IUD works.

 

Coercion? Are the politically conservative forcing women to hump? I think it's more a recognition of life once it takes root in the womb. The question seems to be when life begins. Conception would be my definition.