Is Abortion a right someone should have?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by hug-a-tree, Dec 31, 2005.

  1. hug-a-tree Live the life Registered Senior Member

    well that's better then a women just going out to get an abortion because they forgot to use a condom, or something. Yeah. I can be okay with that. We should be more strick about these things. I think.
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  3. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

    Cool, being a developmental biologist I can actually exert my aura of expertise in this thread now.

    Does human life start at conception?


    Yes and no.

    No, human life starts at the production of the gametes, eggs and sperm. Both are alive. Both have the capacity to make a new organism when brought together under suitable conditions.

    They are brought together and fuse. Did human life start? Hmmm...technically human life started with the inception of the human species. wait, let's not be too anal. Did a new human life start in the sense of a new human organism?

    Yes! You are absolutely right!!! But does it mean something?

    Is it human?


    difficult. How would you define that?

    Can it survive outside the womb?


    Can it think? Is it self-conscious?

    No, it doesn't have a brain yet. In fact it is only one cell.

    And so many cells get killed each day in your body. Your body is a massacre.

    When do scientists say you can start killing an embryo or fetus?

    Well, they don't. That is an ethical issue. Personally I kill embryos and fetuses of all ages in my line of work and even newborns. It's ethically perfectly acceptable although not a very pleasant job. So there is no technical limit when you can or cannot kill embryos or fetuses. However, we are now talking about lab animals.

    Why did we put a limit somewhere with humans?
    Because we made that decision based on the average morals of society.

    But that means that there is no scientific argument here. So please do not drag us in here. We would happily kill all fetuses if you let us in a manner of speaking (well some of us). The same would be valid for MDs. Some of them would happily abort you at any point during pregnancy and some would even go further and do euthanize the baby for you after it is born in a normal fashion.

    What we have here is not a technical issue that can be resolved by asking science when a human life starts. What you do is ask yourself when human life starts and then you ask your neighbour when human life starts. And then you make a compromise because you are not alone in this world.
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  5. Lemming3k Insanity Gone Mad Registered Senior Member

    It simply should be a right, nobody has a right to tell someone else what to do with their body, a foetus has very few rights because for a very long period of time it cannot survive alone it needs its 'life support machine'. Abortions will happen, like it or not some people just dont want kids or have the ability or money to look after them, there are possably thousands of kids without homes and people dont want to bring more into this world, if its illegal there will be backstreet abortions, performed in a crappy environment at high risk, or people will drink/smoke etc do anything they can to get that thing out of them if its unwanted.
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  7. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    I am absolutely against abortion.

    Nature did not make procreation so that women murder their own children. At least not in humans. And what kind of women murder their own children -- even if unborn. Wait, let me answer this: Heterosexual women (the truly heterosexual ones that live for sex with men).

    This is just one of the serious harms of heterosexuality. They force and train people to be heterosexual, something that nature has not planned for. So we get unwanted pregnancies inspite of all the precautions we take. Procreation, that we are not ready for. If we are not ready for it, what is the need for promoting, glorifying and forcing male-female sex on people?
  8. hug-a-tree Live the life Registered Senior Member

    Yes, someone agrees with me. Yay!
  9. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    I think the entire concept of women's rights is stretched too far in a heterosexual society. It's o.k. to indulge your women, but this is going too far.

    This is like taking away the essence of womanhood. The essence of femininity.
  10. hug-a-tree Live the life Registered Senior Member

    Yes, totally. And what about the child? Who cares about the children anymore? It's really sad that some people think they have a right to kill someone because they don't want to put up with them.
    Everyone tells me that it's my own thoughts, and I should force my decisions on others. But like you said, their pushing it. Since when can people get away with murder?
  11. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    This individualism is getting too far too!
  12. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

    Congratulations. You agree.

    Now the bad news. It doesn't mean anything.

    Let's please cut the bullshit what nature intended. Nature doesn't intend anything. Nature is just a collection of living organisms.

    Some biological realities then:
    The female body is at a constant war with a parasite growing inside her. That parasite is of course the embryo, later the fetus. This fetus will plunder the mother's resources when possible. It's isn't nice to the mother. It only thinks of itself. During the course of evolution this war between mother and child has reached a certain equilibrium. The parasite can't push the mother anymore before being ejected or attacked seriously, the mother can't restrain the embryo any more before killing it. It's a truce. There is nothing peaceful about it though.

    The embryo is quite capable of killing its host and regularly does so. Not so much anymore with the advent of modern medicin but the mother still undergoes a huge risk with every pregnancy. Many embryos are naturally (yes, fucking naturally) aborted before they reach terms. Most mothers never even notice they were pregnant.

    If a mice eats its litter in case of stress or an emergency is that unnatural? No. The future is too uncertain. Eating the offsrping is a natural response.

    If a woman decides she can't give an unborn child a proper future is that unnatural? No. Not wanting children in this situation is a natural feeling.
  13. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    You must be really happy about most of Africa, where children are not aborted. But then what do you say about how they're all starving to death and die by the thousands of diseases because the people can't feed them or take care of them?

    So, Hug, in nations like that, like in Africa, if a woman gets pregnant, do you still feel that she should bring the child to term, even if it is surely to die suffering of hunger and disease in only a few short months?

    Baron Max
  14. ZenDrake come to the darkside Registered Senior Member

    is abortion a fundamental right?


    I don't think that theres enough safeguards for the father's rights.
  15. Nysse God is dead Registered Senior Member

    This is unreasonable. You have no idea how responsible people are. Nothing is 100% safe and you should know it. If they are taking enough precaution they are hardly negligent if they do get pregnant, and so they have every damn right to “murder” the unwanted ‘child’.
    I just love this. Especially since you are apparently not speaking from experience and in reality have no idea what it would really be like.
    Do you know anyone this has happened to? Any friends or family?
    Well, it sure isn’t going to make it any better now, is it?
    If you were raped, you would feel dirty, revolted and pretty damn miserable. So, if you did get pregnant as a result you’re not going to be in the mood for carrying some disgusting rapists spawn in you for nine months, are you? The very thought would most likely make your skin crawl.

    However, if you did somehow decide to keep the rapists child, as you seem to think you would, you would probably want to stop going to school, I mean let’s face it, no one thinks well of a pregnant 16 year old, even if they were raped, and you wouldn’t be publicising that now, would you?
    So, raped at 16, pregnant as a result, no school for the good part of a year, falling behind on your studies, people thinking you are a slut for sleeping around and getting pregnant, forcing your parents to not only deal with the judgmental opinions of relatives, friends and the community, but a pregnant teenager as well. Apart from that, fewer and fewer friends, no social life, no boyfriends, because let’s face it, guys your age don’t want a pregnant girlfriend, do they?
    As well as that you get fat, moody, you’re probably already extremely depressed with major self loathing issues as a result of the rape, and on top of that, from what I’ve heard, lots and lots of stretch marks. Sounds fun, yeah?
    But, as long as the rapists spawn isn’t harmed and you can make someone else’s life better by letting them adopt your product of rape, why should it matter that all these aspects of your life have gone down the shitter?

    What I’m basically saying is don’t state such things when you don’t really know how you would actually feel when faced with that situation. You might have an entirely different opinion if it happens because, after all, you would have to take everything about your life at the time into consideration, and whether you were really willing to make those sacrifices and not have an abortion.
  16. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    Wake up people....


    'cause its easy to do..... and the Gov't cannot hope to prevent it, and so has no choice but to regulate it.

    just as alcohol was made illegal.... but its so easy to make... the gov't couldnt stop it... so it re-legalized it..

    what is so sad to me, however...

    is that so many woman say.. "abortion is their right."

    when in reality they are saying.. "killing my unborn baby is my right."

    and killing is supposed to be wrong. and so why is it ok for mothers?

    and then if such is ok... abortion.. ok... then why cant we kill our 2 year olds?

    they are as useless as the unborn... and sometimes more annoying.


    the fathers rights..... woman seem to think they dont have any.

    well it takes two to tango, and if you played with him... you took the chance of manufacturing with him... and he must have a voice...

    and that voice has no meaning unless it can say no, and stop the abortion.

    let the fucking whore bitch leave after the birth... but dont tell the wannabe loving father that he has to say yes to killing his child.

    rape is another story..... and is the only good reason for abortion that i know of.

  17. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    This is bullshit!

    The society, including the state and all its institutions give enormous patronage and support to male-female sex through marriage --- and it has done so for several milleniums. Many human aspects, needs and aspirations (masculine/ male-male bonds being an important one) have been sacrificed and suppressed for ages so that male-female marriage could survive (which under natural circumstances it has no chance to survive!).

    The only reason for such enormous investment (which has such severe costs for most people, particularly for men, and which makes so many people and human qualities redundant) has been to support procreation.

    Heterosexuality, which is a modern day phenomenon, and of which only a part is geared towards reproduction, derives its enormous exploitative powers through this age old obsession of societies for procreation.

    People cannot use the enormous benefits of this age-old social support and then refuse to partake in their ensuing social responsibilities. For if male-female sex cannot fulfil the responsibilities for which it has been given powers, then the state protection given to male-female sex is futile.

    We are social beings and as such have responsibilities towards our society. We cannot live only for ourselves.

    Besides abortion is unnatural and anything unnatural is eventually harmful to the humankind.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2006
  18. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    You have no idea how irresponsible people could be. Especially in this age of forced heterosexualisation, where the media inundates the society with exaggerated and glorified heterosexual life-styles, what with 'dating' and stuff.
  19. Pete It's not rocket surgery Registered Senior Member

    Like... bandages?
    Cooked food?

    Besides, is abortion really unnatural? An abortion is just a deliberate miscarriage, right? Does "deliberate" mean "unnatural"? If you deliberately pluck a fruit from a tree to feed yourself, is that unnatural and therefore harmful?
  20. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    The vested interest group will dismiss nature, if need be, to support heterosexuality.

    This is from someone who argued relentlessly about procreation being the only purpose of biology, of humans being useless biologically if they don't add to procreation, and that evolution is all about ensuring procreation.

    Yet the feminine instinct risks her life to save her offspring. The human female (quite like most other mammals) has an immense emotional investment in her offspring, right from the time she conceives.

    What happens naturally, happens as a natural response to natural developments. It is no excuse for humans to engineer such things artificially, on a large scale.

    Are you suggesting that mice do that as a habit whenever they get stressed? I'm sure not. It is something that happens only in extreme emergencies --- not for the vain pleasures of casual sex (when nature has intended sex for pleasure between the same-sex, with no burden of procreation).

    Yes if the circumstances under which she had sex with a man are brought about artificially by the society, and she is psychologically influenced in her decision to have 'casual sex'.

    Procreation and its nurture is the primary drive of the mammalian female. It is the essence of femininity. A woman's life is incomplete without it. The secondary drive of women is bonds with other females --- including sexual bonds. Sex with males only has reproductive value for females (whatever pleasure value is there is transient). No wonder that most women don't reach orgasm during vaginal intercourse with men.
  21. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    The heterosexual society will do away with any part of nature that comes in the way of the heterosexualisation of the society. In a heterosexual society the right of the male-female couple to have casual sex is the ultimate. Any thing that comes in between that right is an evil --- a violation of 'human right'.
  22. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    I don't also really support the use of condoms at a mass scale. Condoms are a disaster for the environment. Why should we stress environment more in order to sustain and support the vain and purposeless heterosexual society.
  23. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    Today's Bandages are made of plastic --- which is stressful for the environment that we live in. Besides they deprive the wounded area of breathing space, and not really beneficial for healing.

    It is because humans cook their food that they have so many illnesses and allergies. Constipation is a common human condition, whose basic reason is that we don't eat our food raw.

    Societies which over-cook/ process their food (like the one I live in) have more health problems than those which do it reasonably.

    You see nature does allow artificial human intervention and can cope with it to some extent. After that the effects become too harmful for the humans themselves.

    And these two examples you've quoted are too minor occurings. Abortion is serious matter.

    People die. But does that mean we can kill people deliberately. That would be surely artificial/ unnatural.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2006

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