Intelligence vs. self in the Gita

Hoth · Feb 15, 2002

"From attachment desire is born, from desire anger. Out of anger confusion arises, through confusion memory wander, from loss of memory the intelligence is destroyed; from the destruction of intelligence a man is lost." - Krishna

"They say that the senses are great; the mind is greater than the senses. Yet greater than the mind is the intelligence; but he is that which is still greater than the intelligence." - Krishna

This doesn't make sense to me. First it strongly correlates the self with intelligence, then denies that the self is the intelligence.

Why wouldn't attachment to the intelligence be another bad form of attachment, even if maybe not as bad as attachment to the physical? If the intelligence isn't the self, if it's below the self as the second quote says, then isn't intelligence irrelevant to the true self? If that's the case then what should the first quote be taken to mean?

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Jan Ardena · Mar 7, 2002

Originally posted by Hoth
This doesn't make sense to me. First it strongly correlates the self with intelligence, then denies that the self is the intelligence.

Try and understand that the body has an hierarchical system. Starting with the materials of the gross body , you have the five great elements, namely earth, water, fire, air and ether, Then there are false ego, intelligence and the unmanifested stage of the 3 modes of nature, namely goodness, passion and ignorance.
Then there are 5 senses for acquiring knowledge; the eyes, ears, nose, tongue and skin.
Then 5 working senses; voice, legs, hands, anus and genitals.
Then, above the senses there is the mind, which is within and which can be called the sense within.
Then there are5 objects of the senses; smell, taste, form, touch and sound.
These elements, numbering 24, are called the field of activity, or the body.
Desire, hatred, happiness and distress, which are interactions, are representations of the 5 great elements in the gross body.
The symptoms of life, are represented by consciousness and conviction, are the manifestation of the subtle body, which consists of mind, intelligence and (false) ego, these subtle elements are also included within the field of activities.
The 5 great elements are a gross representation of the false ego, which is basically called the materialistic conception, or intelligence in ignorance. For example, someone who is born in USA, white, named Harry Peacock, have a large family, may believe those designations to be true, when in reality it is just an illusion which has come into being and will end in time. Pretty much like a dream.
Intelligence is being able to understand the difference between what is real and what is false. If you identify with the material body as yourself, then you are not intelligent, according to vedic understanding. You would be regarded as animalistic, as the animals have no idea that they are not their body, but have acquired their body, either through evolution (spiritual) or through their previous (soulfull) activities. (karma)
The soul (brahman) is also situated within the body, the heart to be exact. The soul is not affected by anything within this material world. It is pure spirit, identical to the Supreme Soul (Param-Brahman/God), but finite, whereas God is in-finite.

Love

Jan Ardena.
Click to expand...

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Hoth · Mar 8, 2002

Thanks for the explanation. So, it would be correct to say that intelligence here is equated with realization of the self, rather than with actual thinking capabilities?

I guess the "soul" is supposed to have thinking capabilities? The soul considered to be the one doing the thinking, despite being in essense outside time?

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Jan Ardena · Mar 8, 2002

Originally posted by Hoth
Thanks for the explanation. So, it would be correct to say that intelligence here is equated with realization of the self, rather than with actual thinking capabilities?

Yes.
We can think whatever we like, according to the capacity of the body. For example I can think I can fly because I have observed flight, but my bodily capacity is such that I am unable to fly, I have come to this conclusion through my intelligence. If however, I was to attempt to fly by flapping my arms, I would be classed as delusional and unintelligent.
Where the atheist is unintelligent, although he may be academically brilliant, is that he thinks this world came about through chance, even though nothing in his experience would suggest this. So from this we can understand that intelligence is not necessarily academic.

I guess the "soul" is supposed to have thinking capabilities? The soul considered to be the one doing the thinking, despite being in essense outside time?

The soul is pure spirit, it has nothing to do with this material nature, he is a separated, atomic, individual part and parcel of the Supreme Whole. He is identical to God in every way, except in size, he is finite whereas God is infinite. So yes he thinks, actually he is full of knowledge, he has senses, and in his pure state he utalizes his senses to serve God, that is the transendental relationship between him and God.
But when he becomes conditioned by material nature, he seeks only, to gratify himself, and in his quest for gratification he forgets his real identity, and his Lord.
This is why there is religion, to bring the conditioned soul back to his original senses.

Krishna says in the BG: For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.

Somehow or other he has fallen from his lofty position and therefore has to accept a material body, according to his condition. After repeated birth and deaths of particular bodies, he gets a human body. This human body is very special, because you can get back your original, eternal and spiritual body, through the process of self realisation. If however we do not take advantage of this body, we will fall again into darkness and have to go through this evolutionary cycle, until we come again to the platform of owning a human body.

Love.

Jan Ardena.
Click to expand...

Hoth · Mar 9, 2002

If the soul knows everything, then the soul can have no new realizations. That means the realization that the self if the soul is a realization done by the body. Since the body/mind is not the real self (rather, the soul is), the self is actually not coming to any realization -- it already knows everything and is simply watching the body realize it.

That leads me back to the biggest piece of fundamental illogic I saw when I read the Gita. The self is a different sort of thing from the body/mind... yet for some reason it's supposed to be important for the self that the body/mind realize this. Considering that the real self isn't the body/mind anyway, the real self shouldn't care one bit if the body/mind has delusions. Most importantly, for a person to attempt to realize that they aren't the body/mind is to prove that they're still in the delusion: if you know you aren't the mind, you won't attempt to make your mind think about that since you'd no longer identify with your mind or care about the thoughts of your mind. Only the mind can have the delusions, and to think that it's you being deluded is to prove that you haven't made any progress.

If the soul knows everything, then the soul can have no new realizations. That means the realization that the self if the soul is a realization done by the body. Since the body/mind is not the real self (rather, the soul is), the self is actually not coming to any realization -- it already knows everything and is simply watching the body realize it.

That leads me back to the biggest piece of fundamental illogic I saw when I read the Gita. The self is a different sort of thing from the body/mind... yet for some reason it's supposed to be important for the self that the body/mind realize this. Considering that the real self isn't the body/mind anyway, the real self shouldn't care one bit if the body/mind has delusions. Most importantly, for a person to attempt to realize that they aren't the body/mind is to prove that they're still in the delusion: if you know you aren't the mind, you won't attempt to make your mind think about that since you'd no longer identify with your mind or care about the thoughts of your mind. Only the mind can have the delusions, and to think that it's you being deluded is to prove that you haven't made any progress.

By the way, the atheist could say that considering the soul to be a thinking thing is unintelligent because you're being deluded by the physical world's ways (which include intelligence, and time) into the irrational assumption that the nonphysical works in the same ways as the physical. The atheist could say that the simplest and most logical conception of the base of self would be as a perspective of observation... something which is not aware of itself, but which is aware of thought. In other words, the self would have no substance and the entire meaning of it would be "awareness of thought"... and as a result, a full sense of self requires both parts, the observer and the observed. The atheist may say that religion's fundamental unintelligent error is in applying physical concepts like time and thought to the soul, and from those mistakes being misled to the false conclusion that a perspective can have meaning without being of anything.
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

kmguru · Mar 9, 2002

...from loss of memory the intelligence is destroyed; from the destruction of intelligence a man is lost...
Click to expand...

So, what is new? just look at all the Alzheimer patients...

...Yet greater than the mind is the intelligence; but he is that which is still greater than the intelligence...
Click to expand...

A mind is like OS and the DRAMs, intelligence is like contents in a CD-ROM and self is the whole computer. Without the entire system in ship-shape, the whole thing is useless....

just another POV....

Jan Ardena · Mar 10, 2002

Originally posted by Hoth
If the soul knows everything, then the soul can have no new realizations. That means the realization that the self if the soul is a realization done by the body.

If we see the Supreme Soul as a big fire and the finite soul as a spark, which has somehow separated itself from the fire,wshat would happen?
The spark although tiny, would qualitevely be identical to the inferno in every way, but size. The spark would land on the ground (earth), burn for some time and then be overcome, at some stage by, by the other elements, unless of course it came into contact with flamable substances. The reason for this is obvious, it is simply too small to counteract rain, or wind, so it becomes covered.
As we are individual parts and parcels of the Whole, we are qualitively identical to the Supreme Soul and therefore are full of knowledge as is the Supreme. But when we become separated, or when we think we do not need to be part of the Supreme Whole, we descend, fall, land in this material world where we are covered by material nature.
The result of this covering is forgetfulness of ones original position and identity and therefore we accept our present condition as our true self and position (false ego).
According to vedic literature, we get a body according to our state of mind or our condition, at the time of death. There are 8,400,000 different species of material bodies, once we fall down, we have to evolve through these various species. These species are divided into insects, birds, plants, aquatics etc. Going through this evolutionary cycle we eventually come to platform of a human being, this is considered the best.
As I said earlier, the spark (soul/atma) eventually pitters out due to being overwhelmed by material nature, but if that spark comes into contact with its own nature (for now we will say fire), immediately the spark regains its original identity. Only in the case of the soul, when it comes into contact with the spiritual nature he regains his knowledge by association. This is why there is religion (sanatan dharma), if the principles of religion are carried out, eventually one will understand his true identity.

Since the body/mind is not the real self (rather, the soul is), the self is actually not coming to any realization -- it already knows everything and is simply watching the body realize it.

The body and mind are emanations of the soul so in that sense they are real, what you experience (joy/sadness) is real, where the illusion comes in, is that the mind and body are temporal whereas the soul is eternal.
When we dream at night, we forget our bodies, while in bed, and accept our dream bodies but when we awaken from that dream we can understand that it was only a dream and therefore not real, even though our experiences were. It is the same with material life, only the dream lasts a lifetime.

By the way, the atheist could say that considering the soul to be a thinking thing is unintelligent because you're being deluded by the physical world's ways (which include intelligence, and time) into the irrational assumption that the nonphysical works in the same ways as the physical.

As I have said before we can say and think anything, and although we will understand some truth, but that is not the absolute truth.
On one hand you have theists, they say God exists, and on the other hand you have atheists, they say God does not exist. Both are bias, neither side will listen to the other, therefore they are proud and puffed up of their knowledge. This duality is a product of material nature, it has nothing to do with spiritual nature (non-physical).
To come to the platform of absolute truth, one has to surrender everything to the Supreme Absolute Truth, by way of accepting a spiritual master and surrendering to him, thereby giving up all sense of pride and possession. Then and only then can one see the truth which is one.

The atheist could say that the simplest and most logical conception of the base of self would be as a perspective of observation... something which is not aware of itself, but which is aware of thought.

But what is it that is observing and thinking.
I observe my hand, so who am I that I have come to possess this hand.

and as a result, a full sense of self requires both parts, the observer and the observed.

Yes I (spirit) observe that I have a hand (material), but the hand cannot observe that there is an ‘I.’
The hand is a servant of the ‘I.’
In the same way, the separated parts and parcels of the Supreme ‘I’ are servants of the Supreme ‘I.’

Love

Jan Ardena.
Click to expand...

Hoth · Mar 12, 2002

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
But what is it that is observing and thinking.
Click to expand...

Simply observation itself... which is why it has no meaning except when there's something for it to observe.

All thinking is material, intelligence can be explained by physical processes in the brain. The awareness needn't do anything but be aware... there's nothing left for it to do, in fact, since the brain is capable of everything else expcept the actual awareness of thought. The only reason that a non-thinking perspective of observation seems like such a strange concept to people is that we're too used to associating awareness with thought, since thought is what we're aware of. We're too used to ignoring the observed/observer distinction, so we don't normally realize that none of the actual awareness we have is thought, but rather the awareness is of thought.

Basically, I see two aspects to the universe: the awareness, and that which it is of. Neither means anything without the other. I like kmguru's analogy, because it's similar in function. To use a similar one, a computer without a program to run does nothing... and a program without a computer to run on also does nothing.

I observe my hand, so who am I that I have come to possess this hand.

People answer that by saying they are their thoughts. From there you ask "I observe my thoughts, so who am I that I have come to possess these thoughts?"
This can be answered by saying you are a soul. However, where I have a problem is when you try to say that you can have awareness of that soul, and you seem to arbitrarily ignore the question of "I observe my soul, so who am I that I have come to possess this soul?” Since you ask that question of everything you can experience, since you make the distinction between the experience and the experiencer, you have to ask the question here as well. That’s why I don’t believe in anything being self-aware, as you’re saying the soul is self-aware. If you can observe the universal soul, who are you to have come to possess that universal soul?

Jan Ardena · Mar 12, 2002

Originally posted by Hoth
All thinking is material, intelligence can be explained by physical processes in the brain.

Okay, so I am not going to put my hand in the fire, because I do not wish to experience the pain of being burned.

Simple example, but it encases everything to do with what we are discussing.
Firstly, I am aware of the fire, I can see that it is fire, I can feel that it is fire, if it was nice warm water, my awareness would be different. Secondly I am aware of my hand, skin, and the relationship with fire, these are not thoughts, they are experiences, which I have had, which someone else has had, or by understanding through some medium such as books, TV, radio, etc. So they are knowledge according to my consciousness.
Then the thought kicks in, can I be benifited in any way by being burned, is it to my advantage. I make the decision, no. How did I come to that decision, through my intelligence.
All this happens in a flash.
An animals intelligence would be controlled by its instinct of fear, which is nature, a child, whose consciousness is still in its development stage, may put his hand in the fire. This is because the child has no knowledge, as yet, and is clearly unable to make such decisions. But, having put his hand in the fire, and feel the terrible pain, the experience will profoundly alter his consciousness, which is responsible for our thoughts, awareness and intelligence.
You can see how this works in government, the government acquires secret knowledge through its intelligence agency. 1) That does not mean the president (soul) personally goes to find out. He simply issues the order, and then everything starts to move accordingly. 2) No matter what the intelligent sources acquire, the final decision rests with the pres. (soul) 3) Having made a decision, he makes his intention (mind) known to the rest of the government (body), and they carry them out, as per instructed. 4) Within the government is a very important part, the cabinet or the advisors, this is like the brain. Once the president decides what he is going to do, he then consults his brain, this may include scientists, occultists, top ranking generals, psycologists, spin doctors, the list could go on and on, it is their duty to formulate his ideas in the best way possible, but whoever he chooses, will be his choice. 5) Once a strategy has been formed, it is presented to the lower levels of the body of the government and so on and so forth. But everything is coming from the person at the top of this formation. In the same way, you, the soul, is responsible for everything you do, your body has no responsibility. If that was the case, prisons would be inundated with dead people.
Where I think you are mistaken, is that you think all these events are separate to our selves, and do not realise that you are the soul, you are the predominating diety within your bodily structure. It is because of you, that your body moves, not that the body is independent of you.

The awareness needn't do anything but be aware... there's nothing left for it to do, in fact, since the brain is capable of everything else expcept the actual awareness of thought.

By your very own analysis, I fail to see how you could have come to this conclusion, thereby accepting it as knowledge.

The only reason that a non-thinking perspective of observation seems like such a strange concept to people is that we're too used to associating awareness with thought.

In order to be aware, you, at some stage have to think. I see thought as communication, between the different aspects of you whole self. It is far more subtle than speech, which accounts for its speed, it communicates with the mind in the form of mostly desire, among other things which in turns directs the nature of your thoughts to your senses. For example if you are hungry, your body will desire food, but your thoughts do not desire food, they are free to wander anywhere, yet they may not be able to do anything but think of food, because your mind is overwhelmed with the desire for food. All this activity happens because you are conscious, but that consciousness is aloof to all the struggle that is going on. We can observe this, by analysing someone who can go without food for extremely long periods of time, ie; mystic yogis, without feeling the pangs of hunger.
The reason they are able to achieve this, is because they have learned to control the mind, which is the centre (according to vedic literature) of all the senses, so by controlling the mind they control most of their desire, and the body becomes like a servant to them, in this state their intelligence becomes clear and reveals to them, that which their consciousness dictates.

since thought is what we're aware of.

What about abstract thought, inspiration, we aren’t necessarily aware of those, they just pop right into our head.

We're too used to ignoring the observed/observer distinction, so we don't normally realize that none of the actual awareness we have is thought, but rather the awareness is of thought.[/I]

To use a similar one, a computer without a program to run does nothing... and a program without a computer to run on also does nothing.

And without a person to right the program…..?????

From there you ask "I observe my thoughts, so who am I that I have come to possess these thoughts?"

To ask this question, one must first ponder or think about the situation or experience that has arised, which made one ask the question in the first place. Or in other words thoughts must precede question, otherwise the question could quite possibly have no meaning, thoughtless.

This can be answered by saying you are a soul. However, where I have a problem is when you try to say that you can have awareness of that soul, and you seem to arbitrarily ignore the question of "I observe my soul, so who am I that I have come to possess this soul?”

You are quite right, weare the soul, but upon contact with material nature, we have forgotten that.
So the Supreme Soul, of whom we are part and parcel, distributes teachings (religion), that if we, even begin, to follow, can observe that we are the soul not the body, and regain the proper heirachy of the whole body, while in this life, and hopefully return to our natural state of knowledge, bliss and eternity.

That’s why I don’t believe in anything being self-aware, as you’re saying the soul is self-aware. If you can observe the universal soul, who are you to have come to possess that universal soul?

I don’t say the soul is a separate but integral part of the bodily structure, I say the mind, brain,and body, in that order are integral parts, but the soul ‘is’ the person, is you.

Love.

Jan Ardena.
Click to expand...

Rick · Mar 14, 2002

Do you know anything about Kalas?
THE SIXTEEN KALAS

Five Kalas like 1) Anna Maya (with cereals)Maya means desire or knowledge, 2) Pranamaya (with breath)this means breathing knowledge, 3) Mano Maya (with mind), 4) Vigyanamaya Vigyan means Science(with scientific knowledge) and 5) Anandamaya Anand means joy(with joy) are present in every human being. With little effort, humans can perfect in three more kalas - 6) Atishayini, 7) Viparinabhimi and 8) Sankramini. The other remaining eight Kalas are 9) Prabhvi. 10) Kunthini, 11) Vikasini, 12) Maryadini, 16) Sanhaladini, 14) Ahladini,1 5) Paripurna and 16) Swarupavasthit :

Anybody who has the ninth Kala besides the first five natural Kalas and next three perfected Kalas, becomes the god. As per scriptures, the ninth kalas Prabhvi means : KARTUM AKARTUM, that is able to do seemingly impossible tasks. Lord Narasinh is an example of this ninth Kala. Lord Narasinh has an altogether different appearance. He had a body of human and head of a lion. He appeared from a stone pillar that demon Hiranyakashipu had broken with a blow of his mace. It is not possible for an ordinary human being, only a God, having the ninth Kala Prabhvi, can do this. Among all these incarnations, only Lord Krishna is full of all the sixteen Kalas.

anything you want me to explain i can go ahead.

bye!

kmguru · Mar 14, 2002

The modern translation of the word "Kala" is "methodology".

Rick · Mar 15, 2002

erm...Kala means Art.

bye!

Hoth · Mar 16, 2002

Originally posted by zion
Five Kalas like 1) Anna Maya (with cereals)Maya means desire or knowledge, 2) Pranamaya (with breath)this means breathing knowledge, 3) Mano Maya (with mind), 4) Vigyanamaya Vigyan means Science(with scientific knowledge) and 5) Anandamaya Anand means joy(with joy) are present in every human being. With little effort, humans can perfect in three more kalas - 6) Atishayini, 7) Viparinabhimi and 8) Sankramini. The other remaining eight Kalas are 9) Prabhvi. 10) Kunthini, 11) Vikasini, 12) Maryadini, 16) Sanhaladini, 14) Ahladini,1 5) Paripurna and 16) Swarupavasthit :
Click to expand...

So are these in order from lesser to greater importance? What do 6, 7 and 8 mean, and what do people do to reach them?

Rick · Mar 16, 2002

Yes the order is like that.

I"ll post later everything and let you know meanings.I have to go now.(Sorry
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
)
bye!

Rick · Mar 16, 2002

6,7,8 can be achieved through TM.(Transdescental Meditation)
Prabhavi means affecting others emotions via your brain.Others upto 16 inlude doing things like Shape shifting and other seemingly impossible tasks like destroying other person with your own Brain powers etc.
and as i said if you can achieve above 8 you"re God,and if 16 you are a complete incarnation of God.

bye!

Rick · Mar 16, 2002

As Km explained earlier Gita is so popular because of its simplicity and Layman's language.it is flexible and easy to understand,like a pocket Book or Dictionary(
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
)where Vedas are elaborate scientific Knowledge housewares.they are purest form of Sanskrit that very few people can understand in this world at least
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
.

bye!

kmguru · Mar 16, 2002

In other threads we talked about past civilizations. What if the vedas are the knowledgebase of a long lost civilization? A civilization with Vimanas, gene targeted weapons, matter transmitters, advanced healing etc. etc......

Rick · Mar 16, 2002

KM,
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

are you trying to put me on?you know past civilization word initiates a lots of writing and posting devil in me
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

I Think you"re pretty right. as i posted various things in PAST CIVILIZATION thread,we are here talking and dealing with advanced civilization technologies and perhaps a detailed and thorough description and examination of Hindu Texts could yield long but forgotten civilization,which i am doing right know(ie reading Ramayana(its pretty long,i have original Valmiki and Tulsidas's version(both of them,yeah!) and Mahabharata(Original story).

Vedas are a little complicated for me.
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

bye!

Rick · Mar 16, 2002

I cant help myself from quoting this that "ll perhaps show something
about how much advancement we are talking about here.

Gurkha flying in his swift and powerful Vimana hurled against cities of Vrishnis and Andhakas,a single projectile charged with all power of the universe.An incandescent columm of smoke and fire as bright as ten thousand suns rose in all of its splendor,in an instant turned all the people into ashes.the iron thunderbolt as giant messanger of death reduced both the cities into ashes.
Click to expand...

the above quote is taken from Mahabharata.we are talking about period waaaaay back,During Krishna's time when Gita was made.what does the above text show?Nuclear battle?

bye!

Rick · Mar 16, 2002

PS:VIMANA IN CASE YOU DONT KNOW MEAN AIRSHIPS OR PLANES.
AS I POINTED OUT EARLIER I HAVE THE ORIGINAL SANSKRIT TRANSLATIONS OF THE TEXT IN SANSKRIT WHICH I HAVE OBTAINED FROM INTL SANSKRIT ACEDMY OF MYSORE,WITH MY DAD'S HELP OFF COURSE,SHOWS THE DETAILED VIMANA CONTRUCIONS AND THE WAY FRAMES SHOULD BE SET IN A VIMANA AND WHERE IGNITION SYSTEM SHOULD LIE.
THE SHAPE ASTONISHINGLY RESEMBLE A FLYING SAUCER(NO I AM NOT KIDDING!)

THERE ARE ALSO VARIOS OTHER PLANS EG.MOVING OR ROTATING FLOOR PLAN,POWER GENERATION VIA WATER PLANT PLAN. ETC.

THEY ARE NOT MUCH KNOWN IN TODAYS WORLD BECAUSE INDIA IS YET TO EXPERIENCE FULL MODERNIZATION OF MODERN COMPUTER NETWORKS AND ISPS,AS THE INTERNET AND INFO INCREASE WE "LL KNOW MORE.

Oh!Km...see what i am doin'
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

BYE!

Log in or Sign up

Intelligence vs. self in the Gita

Hoth Registered Senior Member

Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

Hoth Registered Senior Member

Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

Hoth Registered Senior Member

kmguru Staff Member

Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

Hoth Registered Senior Member

Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

kmguru Staff Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

Hoth Registered Senior Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

kmguru Staff Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

Share This Page

Log in or Sign up

Intelligence vs. self in the Gita

Hoth Registered Senior Member

Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

Hoth Registered Senior Member

Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

Hoth Registered Senior Member

kmguru Staff Member

Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

Hoth Registered Senior Member

Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

kmguru Staff Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

Hoth Registered Senior Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

kmguru Staff Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

Rick ॐ Valued Senior Member

Share This Page

Useful Searches