Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by sushil yadav, Jul 20, 2005.

  1. sushil yadav Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    64
    The link between Mind and Social / Environmental-Issues.

    The fast-paced, consumerist lifestyle of Industrial Society is causing exponential rise in psychological problems besides destroying the environment. All issues are interlinked. Our Minds cannot be peaceful when attention-spans are down to nanoseconds, microseconds and milliseconds. Our Minds cannot be peaceful if we destroy Nature.

    Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment.

    Subject : In a fast society slow emotions become extinct.
    Subject : A thinking mind cannot feel.
    Subject : Scientific/ Industrial/ Financial thinking destroys the planet.
    Subject : Environment can never be saved as long as cities exist.


    Emotion is what we experience during gaps in our thinking.

    If there are no gaps there is no emotion.

    Today people are thinking all the time and are mistaking thought (words/ language) for emotion.


    When society switches-over from physical work (agriculture) to mental work (scientific/ industrial/ financial/ fast visuals/ fast words ) the speed of thinking keeps on accelerating and the gaps between thinking go on decreasing.

    There comes a time when there are almost no gaps.

    People become incapable of experiencing/ tolerating gaps.

    Emotion ends.

    Man becomes machine.


    A society that speeds up mentally experiences every mental slowing-down as Depression / Anxiety.

    A ( travelling )society that speeds up physically experiences every physical slowing-down as Depression / Anxiety.

    A society that entertains itself daily experiences every non-entertaining moment as Depression / Anxiety.


    Fast visuals/ words make slow emotions extinct.

    Scientific/ Industrial/ Financial thinking destroys emotional circuits.

    A fast (large) society cannot feel pain / remorse / empathy.

    A fast (large) society will always be cruel to Animals/ Trees/ Air/ Water/ Land and to Itself.



    I am trying to get the following experiment conducted in a psychophysiology/ bio-chemistry laboratory.

    There is a link between visual / verbal speed ( in perception, memory,
    imagery ) and the bio-chemical state of the brain and the body.

    Emotion can intensify / sustain only when visual and verbal processing
    associated with the emotion slows down ( stops / freezes ).

    The degree of difficulty of an emotion depends upon the degree of
    freezing (of visuals and words ) required to intensify and sustain that
    particular emotion.


    Experiment:

    Subjects (preferably actors specialising in tragedy / tragic roles )
    will be asked to watch a silent video film showing any of the
    following:-

    (1) Human suffering.
    (2) Animal suffering.
    (3) Suffering ( Destruction ) of Air / Water / Land / Trees.

    Subjects will be asked to intensify and sustain the subjective feeling of pain/ grief for the sufferer.

    The chemical changes associated with the emotion in the body(blood) would be measured by appropriate methods.

    The silent video film will be shown at different speeds :
    (1) 125% of actual speed.
    (2) Actual/real speed.
    (3) 75% of actual speed.
    (4) 50% of actual speed.
    (5) 25% of actual speed.


    Results :

    (1) Intensity of emotion increases with the decrease in visual speed.
    (2) Intensity of emotion is maximum when visual speed is minimum (25%
    of actual speed)
    (3) The amount of chemical change associated with the emotion in the
    body(blood) will be found to increase with the decrease in visual speed.
    (4) The chemical change is maximum when visual speed is minimum.
    (5) The amount of chemical change will increase with the decrease in
    breathing rate. Breathing becomes so slow and non-rhythmic that it stops
    for some time at the inhalation/ exhalation stages.

    The above co-relations will be valid for all subjects -even for those who cannot feel pain/ grief. Such subjects will experience emotion associated with boredom/ discomfort/ restlessness/ irritability/ uneasiness. The chemicals released will be different but the co-relation between visual speed and amount of chemical will be same( the breathing rates will be different/ fast). All subjects will experience some kind of emotion.

    [If scientists can discover 4000 different chemicals in cigarette-smoke then they can certainly detect the few chemicals released in blood when weexperience higher-level emotions like pain, empathy, compassion, remorse etc… ]

    In the 2nd stage of experiment we shall replace the silent video film with a Narrator ( Audio only ) and repeat the procedure thereby establishing the link between intensity of emotion and verbal speed. The narrator will slow down verbal speed by-- speaking slowly, stretching words, repetition of words/ sentences & making use of
    pause/ silence between words.

    Please note:
    (1) A thinking mind cannot intensify / sustain any emotion.
    While this statement is generally true for all emotions, it is particularly true for all painful emotions.

    (2) Pain / remorse / empathy cannot be experienced in a society in which visual (verbal) speed and breathing- rates are fast . It is impossible.


    PROOF.
    Proof of the link between pain and slow visuals / words :-

    In the last century man has made thousands of movies / films on various
    themes / subjects. Whenever pain / tragedy is shown in any film the
    visuals ( scenes ) and words ( dialogues ) are always slowed down. In
    many films tragedy is shown in slow motion. At the most intense moment
    of pain the films almost become static / stationary.

    Tragedy-films provide direct proof / evidence of the link between pain
    and slowness.

    Pain can intensify / sustain only when visual ( and verbal ) speed slows
    down( stops/ freezes).


    Change in visual speed over the years.

    One thousand years ago visuals would change only when man physically
    moved himself to a new place or when other people ( animals / birds )
    and objects ( clouds / water ) physically moved themselves before him.

    Today man sits in front of TV / Computer and watches the rapidly
    changing visuals / audio.

    He sits in a vehicle ( car / train / bus ) and as it moves he watches
    the rapidly changing visuals.

    He turns the pages of a book / newspaper / magazine and sees many
    visuals / text in a short span.


    Change in verbal speed over the years.

    In ancient times verbal processing was “live” in nature—ie it happened when people actually spoke.
    Today there is non-stop verbal processing inside the mind through print and electronic media ( newspapers, books, magazines, radio, television, computer etc…) as a result of which the verbal content & speed has increased thousands of times.


    The speed of visuals ( and words ) has increased so much during the last
    one hundred years that today the human brain has become incapable of
    focussing on slow visuals /words through perception, memory, imagery.

    If we cannot focus on slow visuals / words we cannot experience emotions associated with slow visuals /words.



    Before the advent of Industrial Revolution Man's thinking was primarily
    limited to :

    (a) visual processing ( slow visuals )
    (b) verbal / language processing ( slow words )

    Today there are many kinds of fast thinking :

    (1) visual processing ( fast visuals )
    (2) verbal / language processing ( fast words )
    (3) Scientific / Technical thinking ( fast )
    (4) Industrial thinking ( fast )
    (5) Business thinking ( fast )

    (3), (4) & (5) are associated with Numbers / Symbols / Equations /
    Graphs /Circuits / Diagrams / Money / Accounting etc…

    As long as the mind is doing this kind of thinking it cannot feel any
    emotion - not an iota of emotion.

    In a fast society slow emotions become extinct.
    In a thinking ( scientific / industrial ) society emotion itself becomes extinct.

    Emotion is what remains in the mind when visual/ verbal processing slows down (stops/ freezes)


    There are certain categories of people who feel more emotion (subjective experience ) than others.

    If we attempt to understand why (and how ) they feel more emotion we can learn a lot about emotion.

    Writers, poets, actors, painters ( and other artists )

    Writers
    Writers do verbal ( and associated visual) processing whole day- every day.
    They do slow verbal ( and associated visual) processing every day.
    (A novel that we read in 2 hours might have taken 2 years to write. This is also the reason why the reader can never feel the intensity & duration of emotion experienced by the writer )

    Poets
    Poets do verbal ( and associated visual ) processing whole day- every day. There is more emotion in poetry than in prose. This happens because there are very few words ( and associated visuals ) in poetry than in any other kind of writing. There is a very high degree of freezing / slowing down of visuals & words in poetry.

    Actors
    Actors do verbal ( and associated visual ) processing whole day- every day. During shooting / rehearsal they repeat the dialogues ( words ) again and again ( the associated visuals / scenes also get repeated along with the dialogues )

    Painters
    Painters do visual ( and associated verbal ) processing whole day- every day. They do extremely slow visual processing - The visual on the canvas changes only when the painter adds to what already exists on the canvas.


    There are some important points to be noted :

    All these people do visual & verbal processing - whole day - every day.
    They do slow visual & verbal processing.
    They do not do scientific / industrial / business processing whole day - every day.

    Most of the city people doing mental work either do this kind of mental processing which is associated with Numbers / Symbols/ Equations / Graphs / Circuits / Diagrams / Money / Accounting etc… or they do fast visual ( verbal ) processing whole day - every day.

    This kind of thinking ( processing ) has come into existence only during the last 200 years and has destroyed our emotional ability ( circuits ).


    Once we speed up our minds we become incapable of slowing down [it would take years of effort to slow down]. One can understand it this way - A supercomputer cannot process at the rate of an ordinary computer. Once we speed up [and we have been speeding up for several generations now] we cannot slow down because the neural circuits get altered - the bio-chemistry of the brain and its anatomy changes.



    Self-Assessment of ( subjective ) intensity of emotion is almost always wrong.

    Suppose the maximum intensity(and duration) of a particular emotion that
    can be experienced by any human being is 100 units.

    Let us suppose the maximum intensity(and duration) of that particular emotion ever
    experienced by two people A & B in their entire life is :
    A - 100units
    B - 20 units

    Now suppose A & B are made subjects on a particular day and are asked
    to feel that particular emotion under experimental conditions ( or
    outside the laboratory ) and the intensity &duration they actually experience is :

    A - 90 units
    B - 18 units

    If A & B are then asked to indicate the intensity &duration of emotion on a scale
    of 0 -10 their response is likely to be ;

    A - 9
    B - 9

    Who is right and who is wrong ?
    A is right.
    B is wrong - B is wrong by a wide margin - B has experienced an
    intensity(and duration) of 18 units out of a maximum of 100 units and his correct / actual score should be 1.8

    Self- assessment ( self rating ) can be accurate only if people have
    the capacity to experience the highest intensity &duration ( units ) of the
    particular emotion under study.



    In small(slow)agriculture-based societies the mind used to experience a state of emotion all the time because of physical work and slow visual/verbal processing . People who do physical work experience the same good subjective-feeling which is experienced by people who do physical excercise. [People who do physical work also sleep much better than people who do mental work - the quality of sleep is much better]. If we read one thousand-year-old literature we will not come across the term "boredom" - the concept of boredom did not exist in slow societies. There were long gaps between different visuals and between words/ sentences - and people had the ability to experience/ tolerate the gaps - it was normal for them.

    Emotion can intensify / sustain only when visual / verbal processing slows down ( stops / freezes ). In an Industrial (thinking) society people experience very little emotion because of fast ( visual / verbal / scientific / industrial / business ) thinking.

    Suppose the maximum intensity and duration of a particular emotion ( for most people ) in a fast society has reduced to 5 units ( from 100 units that people used to experience in earlier /slower societies ).

    If such people experience 4 units of emotion they will give themselves a
    rating /score of 8 on a scale of 0-10 whereas their actual score should
    be 0.4


    [Please note :
    Fast emotions =emotions associated with fast visuals/fast words/fast breathing/fast heart-rate.
    Slow emotions=emotions associated with slow visuals/slow words/slow breathing/slow heart-rate.
    Rate of thinking=number of visuals/words processed per minute.
    Gaps between thinking =gaps between visuals/ words/ sentences.]


    Thoughts and Emotions are interlinked - but different things - totally/ completly different.

    Words can be spoken - words can be read - words can be heard.

    Emotion is a subjective-experience. Other examples of subjective experience are taste, smell, touch, headache, stomach pain.

    One can understand the difference this way :

    When we eat an apple we can feel the taste of apple. Apple can give us the taste of apple - but apple is not taste.

    If we pour apple juice into a glass - the glass will not feel the taste - it does not have the ability to feel taste.

    If a person eats an apple he will feel the taste - because he has the ability to generate taste from apple.

    Words/ Visuals can evoke, intensify and sustain emotions - but words/ visuals are not emotions.



    In every field there is easy work/activity and difficult work/activity.

    In mathematics there is easy mathematics and difficult mathematics. Everyone can add 2+4 within microseconds. A PhD level problem of mathematics would take hours [or more] to solve - and that too only by someone who has spent 20 - 25 years learning mathematics upto PhD level.

    Same way in the field of emotions there are easy emotions and difficult emotions. Easy emotions are evoked within nanoseconds, microseconds and milliseconds - anger, lust, fear, pleasure, entertainment and excitement are some examples. These emotions are associated with fast breathing and heart-rate. These emotions don"t require gaps between thinking to evoke, intensify and sustain. These are the emotions that can be found everywhere in today's fast society.

    Then there are difficult emotions - which require ability and years of effort to develop - emotions associated with pain, compassion and peaceful states of mind are some examples. These emotions are associated with slow breathing and heart-rate. These emotions require freezing of thought - freezing of visuals and words - huge amounts of gaps between thinking - to evoke, intensify and sustain.


    The experiments I have proposed are primarily meant for those people who understand only the language of science. We don't need experiments to understand that our present lifestyle is destroying our Minds and Environment - the evidence is everywhere - left, right and center. The craze and fetish for science and scientific proof has mainly existed for the last 50 - 100 years. People have lived on this planet for thousands of years without needing scientific proof to understand something. It is Science and Technology that created the consumerist Industrial Society which has led to the destruction of Mind and Nature/ Environment. Who needs more science or more scientific proof. Science is not the solution - Science is the problem.


    IQ Vs EQ

    IQ always has an element of change in it – IQ is about trying to make/ discover/ invent something new all the time.
    Change is an inherent feature of IQ.
    IQ is also about thinking more in less time—it involves speeding up of mind. Someone who does more mathematics in less time is considered more intelligent in mathematics. IQ is about change and speed.

    EQ is about sustainment of the same feeling/experience over a period of time. When we experience any higher-level emotion for 10 minutes we experience the same feeling( subjective experience) over and over again for 10 minutes.
    The( same) feeling can sustain only if there is Repetition.
    EQ involves Repetition—Constancy—Sameness.

    IQ and EQ are contradictory.
    IQ and EQ are opposites.
    IQ and EQ are inversely proportional.



    (1) A thinking species destroys the planet.
    (2) Animals lived on earth for billions of years (in very large numbers)
    without destroying nature.
    (3) They did not destroy nature because their thinking / activity was
    limited to searching for food for one time only.
    (4) Man has existed on earth in large numbers for only a few thousand
    years / a few hundred years.
    (5) Within this short period Man has destroyed the environment.
    (6) This destruction took place because of Man's thinking.
    (7) When man thinks he makes things.
    (8) When he makes things he kills animals / trees / air / water / land.
    ( Nothing can be made without killing these five elements of nature ).

    (9) A thinking species destroys the planet.



    Intelligence Is A Curse.

    This planet is on the verge of total destruction.

    The cause of destruction is – overactivity.
    [Out of millions of species in this world the human-species is the only one that has indulged in overactivity]

    The cause of overactivity is – Intelligence.
    [The environment would never have got destroyed if Man had been only as intelligent as animals]

    Intelligence is a curse - a disease - a disability - an abnormality.

    Intelligence is the biggest cause/ source of destruction in this world.

    [In fact Intelligence is the only cause of destruction in this world other than natural causes]



    Mental work is injurious to the mind and planet.

    Life was never good in the past.

    Life will never be good in future.

    Life can never be good.


    Suffering is a part of life - an inherent feature of life. Suffering can never be eliminated.

    There is Physical suffering - There is Mental suffering.

    In pre-industrial society there were physical diseases caused by virus and bacteria.
    In modern society there are hundreds of lifestyle related physical diseases - Cancer, Stroke, Diabetes, Obesity, Multiple Organ Failures.


    Mental suffering will always exist. It exists in agrarian society. It exists in industrial society. As soon as we stop working we experience mental suffering.

    We avoid mental suffering by working ceaselessly.

    There is no higher purpose behind work.

    People do not work because they want to work.
    People work because they cannot stop working.

    The energy generated by the food we eat forces us to work ceaselessly.

    Energy = Energy[Physical Work] + Energy[Mental Work] + Energy[Suffering/ Subjective Experience]

    All three energies on the right side are inversely proportional to one another.

    When we do hard physical work or hard mental work or a combination of physical work and mental work almost all energy is used up in doing work.

    When we stop physical work and mental work the unused energy is experienced as suffering/ anxiety/ restlessness/ discomfort. This suffering is so intense - so unbearable - that most people cannot stop physical activity and mental activity simultaneously for even 2 minutes.

    People do not work because they want to work.
    People do not work for their family.
    People do not work for their nation.
    People do not work for any reason.

    People work because they cannot stop working.

    It does not matter what kind of work we do - whether it is physical work or any kind of mental work. As soon as we stop working we suffer from restlessness, anxiety, uneasiness and discomfort.

    [ In Yoga and Meditation the goal is to stop Physical Activity and Mental Activity simultaneously - and then transform the subjective-experience of restlessness/ anxiety/ suffering into peace. This requires ability and years of effort ]

    For most people it is a choice between physical and mental work.
    The switch-over from physical work to mental work is disastrous for the planet.

    Man can do the same physical work every day.
    Man cannot do the same mental work every day.

    When man used to do physical work ( farming and related activities ) he could do the same repetitive work day after day- generation after generation.

    After the Industrial Revolution when man switched-over to mental work he began a never ending process of making new machines / things / products-- a process which can only end with the complete destruction of environment ( planet ).

    When society switches over from physical work to mental work it starts making thousands of consumer goods. People start calling them necessities. They are not necessities at all - 90% of consumer goods that we see today did not exist 50 years ago.

    Food, Water, Air, Little clothing, Little Shelter - these are necessities.

    Close your nose and stop breathing for a few minutes - you will then know what necessity is.

    Stop drinking water for a few days - you will then know what necessity is.

    Stop eating food for a few days - you will then know what necessity is.

    Today people are making thousands of consumer goods - not because they are necessities - but because they cannot stop making them. People cannot stop doing work - After switching over to mental work they will keep on making thousands of unnecessary consumer goods. Industrial Society is destroying necessary things[Animals,Trees,Air,Water and Land] for makng unnecessary things[Consumer Goods]. This is the reason why the switch-over from physical work to mental work is so destructive. This is the point of no-return - once this is crossed the destruction of Environment/ Nature is inevitable.

    If we live a simple life there is individual suffering - but no largescale destruction of Environment.

    If we live a consumerist life there is individual suffering - plus largescale destruction of Environment.


    The nature of mental work is such that man has to do new mental work every day- in fact he has to do new mental work every moment- Man cannot repeat in the next moment the mental work that he has already done in the previous moment.

    A mathematician cannot solve the same problem of mathematics every day- once he has solved it he will be forced to take up a new( unsolved) problem. Even when he is solving one particular problem he has to move from one step to another - there is a continuous change involved -- there is no constancy at any stage.

    An engineer cannot design the same machine again and again –once he has made a machine he will try to make changes/ design a new one.

    A writer cannot write the same article every day- he will be forced to write something new every day/ every moment (This is also the reason behind endless discussions/ debates/ arguments).


    Discussions, Debates and Arguments.

    Let us examine how much discussion we are collectively having in Industrial Society every day.

    Millions of pages in print – newspapers / books / magazines.
    Millions of web-pages on internet every day.

    Now add to this all the conversation (discussion) we are having through radio / television / telephone and several other media every day.

    And add to this all the discussion we are having through face-to-face interaction.

    The volume of discussion per individual in one week is greater than the total discussion someone living in pre-industrial society would have in his entire life.

    There is too much discussion in modern society.
    Discussion is not solving our problems – discussion itself has become a problem – a gigantic problem.


    A society that does mental work will discuss itself to destruction [extinction]

    A society that does mental work will argue itself to destruction [extinction]

    A society that does mental work will debate itself to destruction [extinction]


    A society that does mental work can never stop discussions / debates / arguments – it is impossible. It will discuss / debate / argue till the last moment of it’s existence.

    Discussions / Debates / Arguments – these are creations of a society that has switched-over from physical work to mental work.

    Discussions / Debates / Arguments – these are diseases of a society that has switched-over from physical work to mental work.


    Discussions / debates / arguments can end only in agriculture-based societies that do physical work.

    We cannot do physical-work and mental-work simultaneously.

    There is an inverse relationship between physical-work and mental-work.
    If one is high [more] the other has got to be low [less]

    If we want to do physical work we have to reduce mental activity by the same proportion.
    If we want to do mental work we have to reduce physical activity by the same proportion.

    There is very little discussion / debate / argument in societies that do physical work - ie, agriculture-based societies - And this is the reason why they are millions of times saner than industrial societies.




    Change is an inherent feature of mental work.

    Since change is an inherent feature of mental work - a society that does mental work can never be at peace with itself – it is impossible.

    A society that does mental work will always be restless.

    Only those societies that do physical work [agriculture and related activities] can find contentment and peace.



    As long as cities exist we can neither save the environment nor the mind.

    To save the [ remaining ] environment from destruction man will have to
    return back to physical work [ smaller communities ].

    To save the mind from mental diseases man will have to return back to physical work [ smaller communities ].



    Criminality and Abnormality.

    Industrial Society has collectively killed billions of Animals and Trees [ Remember - plant and animal species developed over a period of millions ofyears]

    It has also killed most of Water and Air [ Please note - polluting Water and Air is equivalent to killing Water and Air ]

    The soil was not fertile when the earth was created. It became fertile - very slowly - over a period of millions of years. And look what man has done - He has covered millions and millions of hectares of land with cement and concrete. All the land that has been covered with cement and concrete has been killed.

    Man has stockpiled thousands of tonnes of highly radioactive nuclear material and nuclear waste which is going to remain highly radioactive and carcinogenic for the next thousands of years - and which has already leaked into the environment hundreds of times.

    There is an arsenal of 50,000 nuclear missiles that can destroy the planet several times over.


    What could be more criminal than this.
    What could be more abnormal than this.

    Lawyers and Judges are trying to catch a few criminals.
    They don’t realize the entire Industrial Society is criminal.

    Psychologists and Psychiatrists are trying to classify a few people as abnormal.
    They don’t realize the entire Industrial Society is abnormal.




    Industrial Society is collectively making millions of tonnes of weapons and explosives [of all kinds] every year – and then it wonders why there is so much violence in this world.

    Big Mystery.

    If you make millions of tonnes of weapons and explosives on earth they are going to be used on earth – they are not going to be used on Mars.


    The entire Industrial Society is a terrorist.
    The Military-Industrial-Complex is the real terrorist.
    Science and Technology is the terrorist.



    Make things
    Buy things
    Sell things

    This is not the purpose of life.

    Destroy Shopping Culture.

    No one deserves more.
    Everyone deserves less.
    Life can sustain on earth only when everyone has less.




    There was a time when Man knew nothing about the number of species and millions of species existed.
    Today Man knows the names of millions of species and nothing is left of the species.



    It took millions of years for millions of species to slowly come into existence on earth - and man has decimated all other species.

    After destroying millions of highly-developed species on earth Man is today searching for a few molecules of life in outer-space.

    If a few microbes, a few molecules of methane / water are found on Mars - it becomes the newspaper headline.

    They call it progress.



    The following is about to come true.

    Nature can exist

    (1) before man.
    (2) after man.
    (3) not with man.



    Destruction of environment can be divided into two parts - destruction of environment for producing food - and destruction of environment for making thousands of consumer goods. In pre-Industrial Society people destroyed environment primarily for food. In Industrial Society people are destroying environment for food and consumer goods. If we want to save environment we will have to bring down the second to the minimum level by not making all unnecessary consumer goods.

    Environment can be saved only if we stop production of most [ more than
    99% ] of the consumer goods we are making today.

    Environment cannot be saved by recycling.

    The attempt of an industrial society to save the environment by recycling is like shooting someone 10,000 times and then trying to save him by taking out one bullet.



    Time is running out for this planet.


    sushil_yadav

    [I am seeking help from volunteers in spreading this message far and wide]
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2007
  2. spidergoat alien lie form Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    46,914
  3. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,838
    I'm sorry to burst your bubble of negativity, but man and his work are part of nature.
     
  4. spidergoat alien lie form Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    46,914
    It is possible that what we are witnessing today is actually the fastest and most profound evolutionary jump ever. It's messy and chaotic, like giving birth.
     
  5. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,053
    Well, I agree with that ...but does it negate the ideas in his post? (No, I didn't read all of it ...any post that long is usually not worth reading!)

    Baron Max
     
  6. spidergoat alien lie form Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    46,914
    Let me clarify the issue. Industrial society is just the product of culture. Culture is the problem with humanity, all culture and all religion. All seek their own continuation, all inhibit our full potential as individuals.

     
  7. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,838
    He said:

    - busted his premise.
     
  8. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,467
    What we leave behind is the only known form of immortality. I know few who would give it up. In a way, carrying on bits of ourselves is the only reason we bother continuing the species.
     
  9. spidergoat alien lie form Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    46,914
    We continue as a species because that is one of two major things an organism does, the first is survival, the other is reproduction.
     
  10. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,467
    Because we pass our genetics on to our offspring, keeping our pattern going and securing us a form of immortality. There is nothing left of those that didn't but ash. Recently mankind found a second, more complete, means through memetics.
     
  11. spidergoat alien lie form Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    46,914
    Yes, this second inheritence, which you call memetics, I refer to as culture. It's (how many billion?) people all trying to make their marks on the world, and reducing eden to dust.
     
  12. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,467
    Eden was a myth. There was only a jungle full of wolves locked into combat and an eternal arms race. Only the winners, those most finely honed by blood and strife, had a chance to make their mark. The others were merely a pound of flesh and a pile of bone to sustain the winners one more generation. And everyone loses eventually.

    With culture, even the losers have a chance to leave their mark on the winner. Even if a culture dies, it still has a hope of being revived by those further down the road. Nothing remembered is truely dead.
     
  13. spidergoat alien lie form Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    46,914
    Compared to man's jungle, nature's jungle is simple and sensible! The so-called civilized man kills for ideals and beliefs while the animals kill only for survival.
     
  14. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,053
    Survival? Now that's an interesting word.

    If a man is being enslaved by another and he kills to free himself, would that be termed for his "survival"? If not, why not?

    And let's not forget that the slaver and the slavee had two different ideals and beliefs about their own "survival". The slaver might well believe that enslaving the other is, in fact, important to his "survival", right?

    Baron Max
     
  15. spidergoat alien lie form Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    46,914
    If a man is being enslaved by another and he kills to free himself, would that be termed for his "survival"?
    Yes.

    There isn't anything wrong with killing. But slavery comes from wanting more than you need. One is natural, the other is a corruption born of greed.
     
  16. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,838
    Oh?

    Who are you to say what I need?

    I don't have, nor would I have slaves... but nevertheless, your assertion is based on an untenable premise. You have no idea what "I need", nor do you have the authority to assert it.

    Slaves are underpaid, mistreated employees with little to no freedom to pursue their own prosperity. Many people in the world now endure the first two, but it's that last part that makes the difference. A guy pushing carts at Wal-Mart has every opportunity to pursue something more. Nobody can gaurentee his success in that endeavor.

    So slavery comes from greed for sure, but it's not necessarily "wanting more than you need"... because asserting that you know what other people need is simply wrong unless of course you're saying that anything beyond the basic necessities of survival is "more than you need"....

    And greed isn't necessarily bad and doesn't necessarily lead to someone wanting to enslave others.
     
  17. spidergoat alien lie form Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    46,914
    anything beyond the basic necessities of survival is "more than you need"....
     
  18. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,053
    And what is "basic necessities"? And who determines it?

    Millions of years went by before women began to use Tampax and Tampons ....now any woman of the west would call them "necessities", right?

    Baron Max
     
  19. spidergoat alien lie form Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    46,914
    By more than we need, I mostly mean excesses of wealth. You are not going to enslave someone to make your tampons.
     
  20. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,053
    Hmm, ya' mean like storing extra food for the winter ...with the thought that you MIGHT have visitors to feed? Is that "excesses of weatlth" or "more than you need"?

    See? I don't think it's so simple as you seem to think. Oh, sure, it's simple to type such a statement, but not to back it up with logic.

    Just playing Devil's Advocate, here, but still...?

    Baron Max
     

Share This Page