Immortality ?

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by hulac, Dec 11, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,140
    It depends if you believe the soul has a physical from or not... in my case I believe it only has a physical form and that all that we are is the result of neural connections only. If this is true then by copying all the connection and the analogy pathways we should be able to simulate the mind in a computer with total accuracy.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. dsdsds Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,677
    The soul has nothing to do with consciousness. Consciousness or self-awareness is what makes us feel what we feel. A person is with himself (and only himself) all the time, allowing him to experience one event (or a group of events controlled by 1 body. If a part of the body (ex. Brain) is chopped off, there may be a way to bring life into it and keeping it separate but it will most probably have its own new conciousness.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,140
    If so then consciousness changes constantly and as such the consciousness you had a few weeks ago is not the same you have now!
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. dsdsds Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,677
    Well yes it does change. Maybe I am talking about what some people consider the soul.
    But for example. Let’s say a person (not me) does not believe in the existence of God and therefore no existence of a soul. How would he define “self-awareness” how can we feel and experience what we do without experiencing it through someone (or something else)? If my memories and personality which are stored in brain matter are downloaded and copied into another person, and that person goes to Europe, I will not be experiencing his trip. There must be something else physical and logical which cannot be copied. It may be able to be transferred so that I will be the person experiencing Europe, but not both. I call this something “consciousness”.
     
  8. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,140
    The thing is if your copy has the same memorize as you and the same personality who to say its not you (let say you both look identical two) would anyone be able to tell which of the two you was the original? How would you be able to tell that you are the original and not the clone?

    This brings up a problem solve by particle physics that worked on teleporting sub-atomic particles. By making a quantum copy of a particle the original had to be destroyed to transfer the quantum states… thus solving the problem. Scifi writes extended that concept that a copy needs to be made to teleport some one, then the original must be destroy in the process of teleportation: you would need to be plasmafied and the quantum state of every atom (some how) would be copied and transmitted to were a new copy of you would be made. We can extend that into saying that if they made a copy of you neuron by neuron guess what? They would have to take your brain slice it into very thin pieces and scan them under a variety of microscopes… so that means that in the process of “teleporting” your memory’s and personality into a computerized the original must be destroyed! Solving the problem!!! You would go to sleep and wake up in a computer and never know any difference nor would anyone be able to tell if anything was different about you (personality wise).
     
  9. BigWill Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    62
    Who's to decide?

    I don't see how it's important if others can tell the difference between the copy and the original. It's like saying, if you could, it's ok to print money yourself because it's the same thing...because no one can tell the difference between it and the real deal. There is a difference whether anyone can tell or not.

    That's a cool point about sub-atomic particles, it makes sense that the original would be destroyed in the process (I've seen this described in class somewhere), but isn't it still the original and copy whether anyone can tell or not? I'm worried that YOU will be able to tell when you go in for the operation and die, but a copy lives on. Your'e right, no one would know the difference, but you still wouldn't live forever.

    I think to make it work you would have to slowly die like I described in my last post...move into the computerised state slowly so that it would become a part of you....this whole move right in just doesn't seem to settle well with me.
     
  10. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,140
    The question now enters the some kind of deep philosophical subject. Remember that saying about if a tree falls in a forest and no one knows… did it make a sound? If you think about a copy made of a person it goes the same way. You say that in truth there is a difference but if you can't prove there is then your belief is not viable.

    As for not truly living forever well yes the universe will either go into a big crunch or slowly lose all energy to entropy and in the end everything will be destroyed no matter how ever lasting it thinks it is… unless it discovers how to exist in higher dimensions or something, who know we will have to wait and find out.
     
  11. BigWill Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    62
    I can go with that...but it kinda kills this topic doesn't it?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,140
    Not really am just saying that if you cannot prove that there is a diffrence EVER then who is to say there is?
     
  13. BigWill Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    62
    Yeah, but it works both ways...can't prove it can't disprove it, I guess we're both right- satisfies me.
     
  14. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,140
    Well now comes in occam's razor: Either there is a spiritual soul that can never be detected in anyway or there is none. The choose is simplest.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  15. MFrobotH43D Registered Member

    Messages:
    28
    Ok the fist part of this is sort of off topic, but then it gets back to it in the second part:
    This is an assumption I don’t agree with. Nobody understands what consciousness is from a scientific standpoint. So we are left to make our own ideas about it. It is common to say that consciousness it a unit of something (maybe similar to a soul) that is contained within the body.

    But this isn’t the only way to view consciousness. I subscribe to a different viewpoint: Consciousness is a force in the universe, like gravity. We don’t all have our own unique consciousness. What we have is a sort of tuning device (our brain). The brain focuses the consciousness “field” producing that feeling of “here I am”. I’m using scientific words here, but I’m not trying to say that it really is a “field” -- It’s just an analogy. The rest of what makes up “Me-ness” (personality, likes and dislikes, etc….) is completely separate from consciousness. Another analogy that helps visualize this is: the radio. A radio doesn’t produce the music and news reports that spew forth from its speaker — it just taps into something that’s everywhere (and invisible).

    Anyway, I like this way of thinking about consciousness because it allows for some interesting things to happen. Most importantly, AI scientists don’t have to figure out how to create consciousness (Which some claim is an impossible task), they only need to create a device that can tune into it or focus it.

    Ok now back to the original topic:
    The question of making a copy of your consciousness in order to download it into some less limited form.

    The important thing is not whether a copy is the same thing as the original. The important thing is continuity of consciousness. If I am going to make a copy of myself so that I can go live in a virtual world, I won’t be very happy with making a copy and then commiting suicide so that my virtual double can take my place in the virtual system. People might not be able to tell the difference between me and the copy, but that wont make it any easier to destroy myself.

    The solution to this problem, as stated by BigWill is a slower transition. If I could reaplace just parts of my brain (start with the optic nerves… maybe cerebellum next) with machine parts that can interface with the virtual world then I could make the transformation over a number of years. I wouldn’t feel like I was any less me if I had bionic optic nerves. Then once I got used to that idea, I could replace the next part. Eventually I would have a completely bionic nervous system, and I wouldn’t notice any difference except that I could then interface with the virtual world completely. Once the interface is established you can download and never feel that you lost continuity of consciousness.
    Might be a lot more expensive this way, so if you could live with the copy/suicide method, you might be able to save a lot of money.
     
  16. BigWill Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    62
    Yay!

    I'm glad, MFrobotH43D, that my suggestion seems reasonable. I like your point of view..like a radio. I never thought of it like that.

    While I was thinking of it it made me think about a theory I have. I've always entertained the idea of 'God' and psychic links as one, and I think your point goes along with it.

    My friend DJ Erock was telling me the other day about similar myths throughout all cultures of the world...there's always a flood story, etc.

    I believe there are people who have psychic abilities, and it links them with other minds.

    I think these two seemingly unrelated opinions can be linked by what you said about consciousness and with what I believe about the humand mind.

    Spirituality and religion have always been a subject of faith and believing. It's a condition we accept (or don't) and prepare ourselves for. Once prepared we accept things others won't, and many open themselves up for messages from their religious figures. However, Because the spiritual world cannot be detected scientifically, our increasingly mechanical world hasn't found a place for religion. It's a separation from our regular lives: People sin and then when they're in the church mood repent. I believe there is no place for church in many cultures today- but people always make a place for it. Why is that? Why can't we just accept that we're all alone and not connected? I think we know better deep inside; something we're born with. Every one of us at some time or another ponders the question: why? Religion helps solve it, but it doesn't give us answers. I don't think organized religion is a direction that will take us to another level.

    No I'm not rambling, just follow.

    Psychics, in my opinion, are people with a link a little stronger to the greater consciousness than everyone else. Their powers vary, but they share a common a power to connect to another 'field.'

    Here's where I link it:

    The greater field, one consciousness, connection- it's the 'God' figure in everyone's religion, and the bond that connects us all together for psychics. However you want to describe it, I think this switchboard of the human mind is what our popes and John Edwards have been talking about.

    Your point with the radio fits right in there. I project that the next step in human evolution will be the connection of all human minds....one day we'll all be able to recieve the signal as clear as it comes. We won't be alone...in fact 'we' won't exist. I'm sure we'll be one. That fits in there with just about every religion- becomming 'one' with a higher force. I've been thinking about this for while, and prehaps my ability to convey a thought isn't so good today, but I feel strongly about it, and I want some feed back...am I looking at this wrong? I haven't found a question it can't at least vaugely answer....hit me up brains!
     
  17. river-wind Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,671
    a small misconseption in the first post- if you were able to move at the speed of light, according to general relativity, it's not that time slows down- it slows down in relation to an outside point. In this case, the earth would be a good outside point. as you streak across the sky, earth would plod along, everyone aging and dying. you would not die. from their standpoint, you are living forever.
    However, from your standpoint, time would move along normally. You get tin the space ship and take off, watching everything in regular real time, not noticing any sort of change in the flow of time. from the point you were born on earth to 80 years later when you die, you would be aging at exactly the same speed. the human body couldn't be hooked up and then live forever, it is a relativity thing. time only slows down for things moving fast in realtive terms to an outside observer.

    That's what one of Einstine's main problems lay- he never finished his Unified feild theory, largley due to this:
    If you are moving 1 million miles per second away from the earth, then your time slows down in reference to earth time. you are moving faster, and as your speed increases, your mass and volume increas while your time slows down. The problem is here: from your standpoint, you are standing still, standing on the brige of an object around which the universe is flying by. It's the earth that is exelarating away from you at 100 miles per second. so from your standpoint, the earth's mass and volume are increasing, while it's time is slowing down. how can the time of both objects be slowing down as the object move away from each other? Clocks sent into high velocity orbits have shown that their time slows down realative to time on earth, but how? As far as the satalite is concerned, it's the earth that it moving, and vise-versa.
    Assuming that realativity is correct, there must be a universal "outside reference point" for all objects. String theory sort of takes care of this problem.


    as for computers saving your brain state- what's to say that it's only your brain that hold your personality chemically? if you exersize, you tend to get happier; this has been traced to chemical changes in the brain resulting from the chemical changes in your body from the work out. But if your brain is removed from your body, you have removed a source of happiness, therefor you in a computer may be a very sullen person. or maybe the opposite would happen. the Body plays a very important role in the everyday phycology of animals.

    as I spend more time around here, you'll know that everything I say is all my opinoin, so feel free to argue with me. I love being proved wrong.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2003
  18. river-wind Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,671
    as for the religion side of things, If you look into particle physics and string theory, scientists are agreeing more and more with ancient religions...if anyone ever says that psycic powers are impossible, just point them to particle physics- it's not only possible, it's likely. All a question of sensativity to the subtle levels of the universe.

    we only use sight as our main source of remote input because light travels in straight lines. Sound travels via compression waves, and can be more easily deflected and scrambled- still usefull information, but we don't depend on it 100%. we don't rely on touch or taste or smell for input from remote sources because that information is borne on wind patterns, which could travel all over before reaching us. THey are not reliable enough to provide information on a moment's basis.
    AFAIK, a 'psycic' person is only more sesative to the patterns held in those other areas of sensory input- they could find your geographical location by subconsiously backtracking the eddies and whirlpools your presence makes in the air. Maybe they can do more than that. but at least that much is possible, and fully logical.
     
  19. sargentlard Save the whales motherfucker Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,698

    Are you serious, you actually made the rip...Thank you...the quality was top notch..i loved it. Now my 2 cents on the whole subject. If you do hardwire your brain on the computer (A pretty sad way to live if you ask me) why would you die. Think about it: it's true your bain will still age because it will not grasp the fact that you are living in a wildly different medium now...but let's say it has aged to about 90 years and it's starting to lose it's mental capabilities...you can just rewind the brain back to the age of 20 again. If the whole process of the brain has been encoded to the hardrive why couldn't the engineer just make the brain the go back to thinking it was 20 again. It's not like the cells won't hold up because the brain is now sans cells and if the brain has been able to be successfully be uploaded to a computer in the first place that means it's source code is avaliable to manipulate in the right hands. Infact you could take the source code of the uploaded brain and tranfer it to a younger body (that i think sounds impossible) through the brains RNA. I know i have said something wrong and somebody will jump to correct me. I would very much like that. Thank you if you read the whole thing.


    P.S. Why grasp on to a fleeting glory that is life. A fitting end to a honorable life is a dignified death. anybody agree or not?????
     
  20. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,140
    There is still no proffer memory is stored in RNA... all atempts to find out have proven null against the control. Its a nice hypothesis though.

    Ever remember blade runner? We all have to die and our memories will be lost like tears in rain... all that we were must be lost, some want to fight that.
     
  21. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,140

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    posting on the wrong thread again!
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2003
  22. sargentlard Save the whales motherfucker Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,698

    Is this in response to my post WellcookedFetus (by the way cool name)
     
  23. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,140
    you said:

    "I know i have said something wrong and somebody will jump to correct me. I would very much like that."

    so I did

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    As for the rest of what you said... well I don't understand what your getting at enough to correct it.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page