If Intelligent design is right, then what?

And you are assuming that 'the creator' is a physical being! He's not, never has been and probably never will be!

Jams R- I would say there are ways forward; looking at the design would be one way. I think this would require a significant amount of reading too however I am unable to do this at the moment because of some stupid bitch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Look at plant species too would also help; regions of growth maybe, and this relationship with humans. I would continue with the thoughts on the fact that only women give birth- men and women both come from women, which I find quite interesting!

Conception is also interesting- one huge bodily muscular spasm followed by the body ejecting some kind of 'proteins' etc.

 

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(Q)

No, that's my point - you are still sitting on your strawman. Faith is not all that matters, because it is not enough to make someone a credible, believable witness

Their teachings are healthy and sound, and applicable in any society. The fruit says a lot about the tree...

No, it's a ladder of crebility - gentiles (of which I am one) were convinced by the disciples, who testified about the believability of Jesus, who testified about the believability of God.

If you do not believe that Jesus lived or was sane, then that's a decision you make based on evidence that you in turn find believable. Why don't you tell me on what grounds you deny their credibility?

You misunderstood - that's not what I said. As I said, you can tell the tree by its fruit. Their credibility is easily measured by the standards set by Jesus. I would not propose to be a perfect Christian myself, even while I would like other people to attest to my trustworthiness, I frequently fall short. But the worth of the ideals I follow - the ones proposed by Jesus and his followers, traced back to the commandments - are sound and their validity overrides any objections about impracticality. I guess the real difference is that of authority. Who and what is more authorized to represent an ideal or evidence?

Since I believe in the authenticity of Jesus, I also believe in his authority, and He testified about God's authority.

Yes, unless he manages to convince me that he is truly sent by God, and authorized by God - unfortunately it is impossible to say how God would create credibility in anyone in our present culture. At the moment the common philosophy is humanism, and everybody has more faith in their own superioirity and ability to know the truth than many people had in God during history.

Anyway, in the light of what I know and believe, nobody will surpass the authority of Jesus, and much less of God. There are two options: either they lead lives that reflect God, or they don't. Even someone who is simple-minded can love and have faith. This does not make them God, but it is a testimony to the power of God. This brings me to an old favourite argument: If faith in God depended on you ability to reason and understand, your perception and insight, your mental powers and intellect - how many perfectly loving and worthy people would be excluded from knowing God? But, how hard is it to know somebody? God's grace is the only wisdom they need.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

 

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We can know jesus' followers were mentally sound because they wrote it down! Why can't people understand the concept that if people thought it important enough to write down, then they must have had a firm faith and a strong beleif! Someone wouldn't write something down if they weren't sure of it!! Like Freud after them, he wrote books and people still questioned, and even dismissed what he had written, however I (without meaning to sound egocentric) I have managed to prove it because I had faith! I don't understand how fucking idiots can ignore the fact that someone has written something down!! You may now argue that a 'psychotic' person may write something down, but how many of you have any serious knowledge of psychotics, and how many of you have watched too many films??!! How many 'psychotics', or people that you would call insane have you met?? How many 'hospital' reports have you read that document the behaviour of 'the insane' and how much have you questionned the motives of the people who even make these reports (and your films)??!

 

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And Paul "testified about the believability of Jesus" based on what - an hallucination?

The threshhold for credibility was far different back then. Magic and miracles and majicians and healers were commonplace. The difficulty was not in convincing someone that your god performed miracles, but in convincing them that they should dispense with their gods in favor of yours. This latter effort was greatly facilitated by coercion and state power.

 

Oh my! If "they wrote it down", they must be sane and what they wrote must be true. It's hard to argue against the force of logic.

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I think different things were believable, but that is not the same as saying these people were more gullible. We can see that there were also different schools of thought even then in 1 Cor. 1:22
"Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles".

Sure, magic and miracles weren't as marginalized as they are today, but the amount of convincing probably needed to be all the more believable to have any effect. And as we know both Jews and gentiles converted in great numbers.

You are right, of course - the ultimate goal was to get people to follow the one true God, instead of the many false gods and idols. This had been the case since the time of Moses. But only people who could accept God's mercy belonged to the church.

You are wrong in supposing that it was facilitated by coercion and state involvement. Christians were considered a threat by both religious authorities and the Roman state and severly persecuted by both. Some apostles were religous Jews and some were Roman citizens (like Paul). Paul went from someone persecuting Christians by the thousands to someone preaching the gospel overnight, literally on the road between two cities. Even after that, his sight needed to be restored by the disciple Ananias, who knew that Paul was persecuting them. For both these people to act as they have, against circumstance and nature, they must have been compelled, and both of them reported that it was Jesus himself who spoke to them.

You might be referring to the conversion of Caesar Constantine in 360AD. But by that time Christianity was already well established. Neither the state nor any dominant religious institution had any chance to promote Christianity before then. Even of this event, you have to ask: why did Constantine himself become a Christian?

By the way, you might be interested to know that the first people he persecuted were the Christians themselves... Read about
the legitimization of Christianity here

 

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Yeah yeah yeah! I thought someone would come up with this. I am not saying that everything that's written is truth, but I am saying that you can tell from what is written whether the person seems to have all their marbles, and from what has been written, we can surely confirm that they weren't in-sane, even if not fully sane (as I doubt very many people are). What is written (by so many people) is not giberish, but it is something they were compelled to write down.

Science has become the 'law of the land' and if all variables are not eliminated then one cannot be 'sane'; this is even true for conversation, which I have already pointed out, however just because we cannot know everything about what was written, and we may neevr know, does not make it any less truthful. Only people who have no faith have a problem beleiving it, which is one of the most important ingredients anyway!!

Has anyone ever considered that by prayer alone, God can be created by us? (as an entity!)? It's highly possible!

 

Has anyone ever considered that by prayer alone, God can be created by us? (as an entity!)? It's highly possible!

Sure, it is as possible as praying a flying purple dragon into existence.

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