Idiocy, Compulsion, Gratitude, Nobility or Deception?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by KUMAR5, Dec 25, 2017.

  1. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    yes, most of the time but animal rights activists are trying to change that because they are not 'thing's but living beings that feel and suffer. and yes, they are being decieved as humans take advantage of their weaknesses and their blindspots (unaware they are being used or exploited as in motive) in comparison to us.

    if you want to blame something, blame the universe, because ultimately that's the way it runs here (predatorial). i don't agree with it myself as this place is like a nightmare you woke up to if you have any ethics at all.
     
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  3. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

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    But nature or universe does not run this way. Hunting i.e just killing but not emotionally developed killing is the way of universe.
     
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  5. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

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    We have to look from animals POV. In nature, hunting is the prefered method not farming, domestication. By this way, atleast animals are not decepted and got killed with emotion. It can make a difference if a father kill or unknown person kill.
     
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Why?
    Ants domesticate and farm aphids. The parasitic fungus Ophiocordyceps unilateralis domesticates (takes over) ants, coerces them to climb nearby grass stalks, forces them to clamp on to the grass, then grows out of the ant's head to spore and reproduce (which is even crueler than what we do.) Cats torture mice before eating them for no reason.

    I wouldn't try to make the "nature is so much kinder" argument if I were you.
    ?? Who gets killed with emotion?
    ?? Whose father is killing them?
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    There is far more cooperation, coordination, symbiosis, mutualism, etc, than predation, in the biological world.

    The ethics of eat or be eaten are hellish.
    The ethics of eat and be eaten are not.
     
  9. birch Valued Senior Member

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    he thinks it's only that humans gain the trust of animals to exploit but i'm not sure if that's true. there are ant species that mimic pheromones to deceive another ant colony into taking care of their young while theirs is eaten. uh, i just can't..that's hellish and scummy.
     
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Yep. European cuckoos lay their eggs in the nests of other birds. The larger cuckoo hatchlings kill all the other young and get the parents to feed it. If the parents catch on and oust the cuckoo, the cuckoo's parents come back and destroy all the other eggs/hatchlings in the nest.

    Charming.
     
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, They are animals.


    Er. I agree. Is that what you meant to say?
     
  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    How does Kumar see this as this qualitatively different than a camouflauged lion hiding in the grass near a herd of gazelle?

    More complex creatures outsmart less complex creatures and eat them because more complex creatures need the processed energy that comes from eating meat as opposed to eating grass.
    That has been the relationship between predator and prey for time immemorial.
     
  13. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    paradoxically, but when it comes to humans, this gets turned around again. the most intelligent, complex and evolved people i've ever met or known usually lean towards vegetarianism or are totally vegan as well as highly ethically concerned and their values do not coincide with the lower animal nature. otoh, the dumbest, depraved and simplest people i've met are carnivores or mostly.
     
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    That smacks strongly of both personal anecdote and generalization.
    Vegetarianism versus carnovorianism is not intelligence-based.
     
  15. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    well, that's what i've noticed as a pattern. you may disagree.
     
  16. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

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    Simply, whether human kill those animals, which they initially adapt, breed, farm, nurse, domesticize, show love and affection but later kill on a dark day to them, is natural,? Hunting and type you told can be natural but that type human now commonly do should not be natural. Atleast no emotion and deception is involved in former.
     
  17. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

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    I think, we need to differenciate between natural happenings and unnatural doings. Former may be necessary for natural balance but later can cause natural imbalance.
     
  18. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    There is no such thing as "natural balance". There are meta-stable conditions, but nature is always out of balance and ecosystems could collapse any time.
     
  19. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    I think we can ethically use animals for things like meat and other uses. Being a living thing does not grant beings the same rights as we humans extend to each other. Is it unethical when a shark eats a person? No. Neither is it unethical when a human eats a cow.
     
  20. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    Unnatural? Are you suggesting that humans are not part of nature?
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Uh - have you ever been to a large farm? There is no "show love and affection." They raise livestock and slaughter them later.
    So duck hunting, hiding in a duck blind and using a duck call to attract ducks before shooting them with a shotgun, involves no deception?

    Go out with a hunter one day, then stop by a factory farm. Your preconceptions may change pretty radically.
     
  22. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, we should not base only one side of nature.
     
  23. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

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    Even is nature most of time is out of balance, can not mean nature balance is invalid. Simply mature tendency to achieve balance always exist but rarely achieved. So it may appear to us that it do not exist. I am not sure, if it is named differently now, may be fine tuned universe.
     

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