The human species - its physical, physiological, neurological, and genetic complexity; still unknown to us - is far more complex then any watch. Yes, this watchmaker crap is very annoying, as is any reference to a relation between electricity and evolution. Ugh!
I suggest people take an anatomy course, along with physiology, genetics, ecology and evolution before trying to come in here and claim that we dont understand anything about the human body. There are some things we do not understand, yet, but to claim everything as irreducibly complex is just ridiculous.
Been there, done that. I suggest that people take an anatomy course, along with physiology, genetics, ecology and evolution WITH A PASSION TO LEARN before trying to come in here and claim that we understand anything about the human body. There are so many things we do not understand that to claim that everything is not irreducibly complex is just ridiculous.
My earlier post merely questioned the logic of Collin’s (Francis S. Collins – Head of Human Genome Project) argument. That he criticised the logical integrity of the Paley watchmaker analogy. For example, by choosing electricity as his example of complexity Collins eliminated the essential features of Paley’s argument. · A watch is man made [it can not come about as a result of natural processes]. · With the watch we can trace the source of complexity [the watch maker]. But Collins has used electricity as his example of complexity. Electricity occurs naturally and its origin is as much clouded in mystery as life itself. I was hoping for some comment on the validity of this attack on Paley’s argument. Not whether you agree with either. Just whether it is reasonable to substitute the watch with electricity? The following however is all I got -: While on the subject of Collins. A few pages after his attack on Paley he wrote the following -: The Language of God - Page 91. A word is in order here about an objection often raised by some critics to any possibility of the spontaneous origin of life on Earth, based on the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The Second Law states that in a closed system, where neither energy nor matter can enter or leave, the amount of disorder (more formally known as "entropy") will tend to increase over time. Since life forms are highly ordered, some have argued that it would therefore be impossible for life to have come into being without a supernatural creator. But this betrays a misunderstanding of the full meaning of the Second Law: order can certainly increase in some part of the system (as happens every day when you make the bed or put away the dishes), but that will require an input of energy, and the total amount of disorder in the entire system cannot decrease. In the case of the origin of life, the closed system is essentially the whole universe, energy is available from the sun, and so the local increase in order that would be represented by the first random assembly of macromolecules would in no way violate this law.I have a problem with this -: order can certainly increase in some part of the system (as happens every day when you make the bed or put away the dishes),Isn’t this like saying my car can not go anywhere without a driver. Then someone saying yes but people drive there cars every day. (i.e. for people to make their beds or put away the dishes there must already be life). And The Second Law states that in a closed system, where neither energy nor matter can enter or leave, the amount of disorder (more formally known as "entropy") will tend to increase over time… In the case of the origin of life, the closed system is essentially the whole universe, energy is available from the sun,…What the hell has “logical entropy” got to do with energy from the sun? But really fellows; please do not bother to write anymore. Quite frankly I am sick of reading your crap. Next time I want an intelligent discussion on evolutionary biology I will not read a book written by the head of the Human Genone Project – or write to sciforums – think instead I will discuss my thoughts with a taxi driver or barman. Will have a far better chance of having an intelligent exchange of ideas.
Collin's was not questioning Paley's choice of complex, or not complex. He was attacking the fundamental illogic of Paley's position. He should have thrown the electricity out the window and presented it thus: A has characterisitic M We know that A was produced by a process we shall call X B also has characteristic M Therefore B must have been produced by process X. This is logically invalid, for we have never stipulated, nor established that characteristic M can only be produced by process X. That is the where Paley fails and he fails for all time. Until and unless a neo-Paley can demonstrate, in a scientific fashion that characteristic M truly can only be generated by process X. Saying it, don't make it so. Ophiolite - always here when you least expect him.
Robert_JS: Try reading others posts more carefully. You posted the following. What the hell has “logical entropy” got to do with energy from the sun? The post you are quoting said local entropy. If you confused local with logical, because English is not your primary language, I apologize. Otherwise read what others post more carefully, and avoid embarassing yourself. BTW: In case you still do not understand, the Earth is not a closed system due to energy input from the sun. The poster was indicating that local entgropy (meaning the Earth's entropy) could increase. The laws of entropy refer to closed systems, and the Earth is not a closed system.
Exactly, furthermore the total amount of matter composing life is miniscule compared to the larger cosmos. Robert, life isn't a watch. It's kind of complexity is qualitatively different from the complexity of life. The watchmaker argument was made obsolete by the theory of evolution. Evolution created watches a long time ago called a biological clock. That is why we sleep at night. Evolution would never pruduce anything so crude as a swiss watch with gears and springs, it's gears are molecules. If there was an ocean full of tiny watch parts with constant circulation, one could expect a watch to form eventually. Evolution is the mechanism or principle by which complexity is preserved in code form. It's design ability can be tested through relatively simple mechanisms, the computer. Evolutionary programs allow computers to figure out solutions for problems that humans can't. The secret seems to be in iteration. It doesn't have to work out how clocks work all at once. It makes tiny alterations of a working plan, the improvements being preserved and multiplied. It takes a long time to make improvement, but we now know nature had the time. You wouldn't have to be that smart to ace an IQ test if you took a lifetime to do it. By that reasoning, God's IQ only had to be slightly more than 0 (totally random process), for complexity to accumulate. If God exists, he has an IQ of 1.
I do not argue that point, its just that evolution is in the future tense with me, How is mankind going to pan out in the future, 10,000 years from now will there be adult changes that perhaps population is better controlled electronically rather than a pill for the genders? Medicine has come a long way, there seems to be more influx towards electronic solutions now and adapting DNA technology to that for record keeping can only be a first towards a new evolution of humanity. Automobiles came from steam powered buggies and horse driven carts, one day flying autos can saturate the taxi business while aircraft and airports become less small objectives of personal jets that cost millions to buy and keep up. America is a forerunner in technology and with some hope all of the world will someday become objective rather than rejective and noncompliant. I mean we can make a better can opener but who in the middle east or Africa needs a can opener?
Foods in the future will be either freeze dried or super frozen in containers that are handled by larger establishments, no more restaurants like McDonalds will become obsolete as well as Burger King, Arbys, and Krystal's. Most of these items will become fabricated nurishments in tubes which form a taste sensation rather than real matters and these nutrients will be better than a burger or other nourishment from a restaurant and the cost will not be a objective as food braclets will provide indications whether you ate or not similar to the newest diabetic method to test for sugar in the blood without a pin prick. I see that glasses for the eyes will become obsolete and replacement of the eyeball with electromics will suffice most applications for eyesight and be better which means interfacing with them a government objective and perhaps a military asset. There has already been indications that removal of a diseased limb to facilitate regrowth is possible rather than having to suffer painful moments with it attached from day to day as it heals. For better or worse these factors and many more will change the evolution of humanity in a synthetic plastic that grows and replenishes itself as it becomes damaged. This also will encourage applications for younger users to adapt at a early age so they will be more efficient in their lifetime with the handicap that is not actually seen as being a handicap but rather a benefit.
If the adult matters change in the future then youth of the time will have no adult classifications as electronic population control and maternal matters go from live in communal reststops for common law marriages to simple livelyhood having no regards for sexuality and child births. Evolution of the species can become a design for extra-planetary-explorations first, this is how it happens quickly on earth. IQ#1 might have a retort plan should another earth be desired. Is there really anything wrong with a new earth plan if it starts the same way as before, construction of the soul?
The Soul, is it matter? If the reality is to occur then Jesus in control of the earth shall have a command and comtrol over the souls that are to be risen, this is the souls are expanded from a miniscule point to a reality much larger than they were and the collapse back is to recreate the heavens and the earth if this is then how that is to occur the possibility of the soul becoming a metter is greater than we have ever thought and the possibility of a new heaven and earth very much possible. When this happens I would suspect Jesus having a soul would also undergo the same instance of creation and become the new founder. Can we depend on this objective that religion dictates or should we proceed into a realm of a new humanity and not worry about the evolution of humanity as it happens?
A = watch M = complexity X = watchmaker/creator B = living complexity I agree. (If this was all Paley was saying his watchmaker analogy would be invalid.) Again I agree – this is 100% correct Why should we have to do that? No one can prove or disprove the origin of complexity in nature. However; to answer your question above. YES “ … a neo-Paley CAN demonstrate, in a scientific fashion that characteristic M truly can only be generated by process X” as it applies to man-made complexity. (i.e. the watch can only be created by the watch maker.) So we have the following -: characteristic M truly can only be generated by process X (man made complexity) characteristic M may/or may not have been generated by process X (natural complexity) But we do not have any example of -: characteristic M was generated by a process other than X The default position should therefore be; “characteristic M truly can only be generated by a process X”. If you disagree with this default position then YOU prove, in a scientific fashion, how "characteristic M was generated by process other than X".
I do not know anything about local entgropy. But I think I understand what is meant by logical (or local) entropy. It for some unknown reason has attached itself to the second law of thermodynamics but the two theories are unrelated. The fact that earth receives heat from the sun can not explain how complexity (entropy) of living systems on earth have not run down. To explain that you need to show how order entered our system – not heat from the sun.
Why does Entropy have to have a part in Human Evolution. Chemical Thermodynamics is not a definitive option for the sun it is composed of gases not chemicals so how could it have a chemical thermodynamic state (no chemical process there), gases can be liquid and solid masses. Its relative only to a informational Entropy leads to the amount of order, disorder, and or chaos in a thermodynamic system whereas the sun is a isolated system of thermodynamics gathering its energies from masses that could be relative to chemical masses that could enter its surface but is not solely a derived chemical mass itself. The Entropies are similar but isolated differences are at work. Thermodynamic entropy including all of the physical dynamics of entropy lacks the physical nature of entropy in information entropy which is saying little for the Black Hole Thermodynamics. Human Evolution on the other hand is actually Extropy (extent of a living or organizational system's intelligence, functional order, vitality, energy, life, experience, capacity and drive for improvement & growth). A metaphor representing all attributes of Human Evolution physically, no external dynamic states as such would have been extraterrestrials since we have no information of such states contributing to Human Evolution. What is natural as pertained to God's will conforming to more aspects involved yielding to Human Evolution as a resulting factor of the order, disorder, and or chaos.
Consumption of bodies that are chemical in state by the sun and solar plexus does not make the sun a chemical state as its gaseous state is unchanging, this shows theres no similar coefficients of thermodynamics present and functional. Consumption is 100% adding nothing of the chemicals of a object to the suns order, disorder, or chaos gaseous state. A example of thermodynamic principles using the sun is a bad objective unless kept only as informational entropy thermodynamics.
"an ocean full of watch parts will produce a watch, eventually" I think YOU have an IQ of zero.....but not much lower than Gods...is it?
For centuries there were showmen who claimed they could make objects materialise from nothing. These showmen were so much connected with the supernatural that they were called “magicians”. Today however they called themselves illusionists. They admit that it is not possible to make any object materialise from nothing and that their performance relies on a trick. It is a pity the scientific community do not also recognise that it is impossible to get something from nothing. Not a rabbit out of a hat, not the matter in the universe, not the heat in the universe, not the gravitational forces that hold it together and not complex life that is capable of reproducing itself. The scientific claim that the universe could have come into existence from nothing is an attempt to exploit the ignorant. It is also an attempt to occupy a God like status for those who claim to understand the mystical scientific process by which this could happen. But this is the 21st century and the only ones they are fooling are themselves.
Pretty hard to piece together human evolution even without the Smithsonian hiding all kinds of early ancestor bones. They "lost" peking man. They lost hundreds of north american "mound builder" bones. They even played politics with the enola gay display. Now we have the Kennewick man debaucle. I mean I am only talking about one horrible coverup agency. It makes you really wonder how much of "accepted" history is just outright bullshit.
