Human Embryo cloned

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by Porfiry, Nov 25, 2001.

  1. Porfiry Nomad Staff Member

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  3. Bebelina Feminazi Messiah Valued Senior Member

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    It was just a matter of time.

    Although I think we have many human clones walking among us already, it´s good that they come out of the closet and just admit it.
     
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  5. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Yes superb news. I just hope the politicians do not become sidetracked by the potential of reproductive cloning and ban the whole of this important research.

    While it is only mentioned, almost just in passing, the comment about resetting the telomeres I think is the most interesting. These effectively control the aging process and if we could undergo full body treatment in the future using this cloning technology then true rejuvenation might become a reality in our lifetimes.
     
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  7. rde Eukaryotic specimen Registered Senior Member

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    I wouldn't go as far as to say that they control aging. If memory servers, the whole brouhaha about Dolly aging prematurely was that her telomeres were shortened. However, she seems to be aging quite naturally.



    As for the cloning being good news: I'm not sure. I'm a big fan of the technology, but I suspect that we live in a world of closet luddites. This news may galvanise the fundamentalist/silly factions in society to lobby for more restrictive laws. When combined with the loophole in UK law revealed recently, I fear the worst.



    Anyway, am I the only one who has doubts about the veracity of this claim?
     
  8. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    hi,
    i think cloning has great future,i am still waiting for the day to come when our clones will go into space probes without any original member of species being hurt.although i think there's gonna be a problem regarding their place in our society,but surely they provide a sure shot and effective way of biological experiments,which otherwise couldnt be achieved.we wont have any problems such as organ shortage etc.

    when look at the other side i smell sharks.i think later on (as in almost all cases)its going to become an ethical issue rather than our own techno-advancement,people will forget the genius behind cloning.people who dont know a bit about the whole process will raise issues viz problems regarding their adjustments with society etc.
     
  9. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Zion,

    I think you have a problem here. A cloned human will still be human in every possible manner and will deserve the same rights as ‘originals’. The only difference between an original and a clone would be the mechanism used to kick-start the manufacturing process. Once begun then the processes are identical. To consider cloned humans as somehow inferior humans that can be considered expendable is a grotesque idea.

    I’m hesitant to state this as I can’t believe anyone could consider this a serious suggestion, but are you suggesting that we grow clones of ourselves so that we can harvest their organs as replacements for ourselves?

    Their place in society will be the same as any other human. They would be free individuals just like you and I: Why should they be treated any differently?

    Everyone, including the politicians, have erroneously jumped on the reproductive cloning issue and have missed the whole point about the ACT breakthrough. The intent and desire is to create stem cells. These are fabulous cells that can be nudged in any direction to produce any type of cell, e.g. heart cells, liver cells, skin cells, etc. You get the idea. The real value here is that if a person has some form of disease where their current cells are misbehaving then stem cells produced by cloning technology can be used to repair the damage without any problems of rejection.

    The whole point here is a major breakthrough in solving and curing an enormous number of human diseases and degenerative conditions.

    The issue of reproductive cloning is a serious red-herring that potentially stands in the way of increasing the quality and survival of an enormous number of present day human beings. It makes me very angry to see politicians, including Bush, and theologians stand up and state they are 100% against boosting this technology. Their ignorance and tactics may well result in millions of human deaths that would otherwise be saved. This is the height of immorality.

    Cris
     
  10. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    Zion
    i think there's gonna be a problem regarding their place in our society,but surely they provide a sure shot and effective way of biological experiments,which otherwise couldnt be achieved.we wont have any problems such as organ shortage etc. ---

    Cloning stem cells, human organs etc ok, but whole people? What will they be used for? Who will they belong to? What about their human rights?
    Will there come a time when human/animal hybrids are commercially produced for fun and pleasure? Minotaur calves and Pegasus ponies, terrier hunks and Kitekat pussycat? i can really see it happening you know.
    Bad and good with everything, it's inevitable, the knowledge is out. Sinister is the future.
     
  11. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Hi tab,

    Long time no talk.

    Can’t believe you are asking such questions. They’ll be just like any other adopted child, or maybe not even that indirect. Remember that once the embryo has begun to divide then it would need to be placed into a living womb for it to continue to grow into a normal child. The birth would be normal like any other and no one will need to know that the child is cloned until it grows older and takes on identical appearances to the donor. And even then that might not be obvious if the donor was 30 years old say at the time that the donor cell was submitted.

    If the donor remains anonymous and lives far away from the growing child then the connection might never be made especially if the host parents keep the secret. If however, the parents are a couple who can’t have children of their own by any other means then one day the connection will be made.

    I suspect that when many clinics achieve the cloning technology then cloned humans will appear in many places, and no one will know for a long time.

    It would be much better if the politicians and theologians get their heads out of the clouds and accept that this is inevitable and deal with it properly. Trying to legislate against individual freedoms and scientific progress has always ended in human disaster.

    Wow you are way out there aren’t you? And why not? Why do we have to remain in these simplistic, limited and poorly designed biological shells? Let’s explore – there should be no limits to human imagination and creativity.

    Doom and gloom. You are a terrible pessimist.

    Sinister? Fabulous variation you mean; the freedom to experiment and explore. Come on cheer up. The future looks like being a fantastic and exciting place to be.

    Cris
     
  12. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    mooooo.. wanna ride master?

    Hi Cris,
    I've been lurking around the Free Thoughts and the Arts forums and I don't come round your parts often.

    What I was especially referring to was Zions bit about experiments on the clones and society not accepting these beings. I construed it as meaning that cloned humans will be produced for conducting experiments on and no doubt they will even in a small way. Even the surrogate children of childless couples will probably be tagged in some way and periodically checked also and they could never be truly free.

    I can understand the benefits for medical research, spare part organs and childless couples, but the most worrying thing is that this technology will be abused. I emphasise 'will be' abused. As all technology is.

    Imagine somebody like Hitler 50 years down the line, with access to this (by now) well honed technology, in addition to the hi tec robotics, brain emulators and hybrid androids that will probably begin to see the light of day around that time. Every century has at least one if not a hundred potential Hitlers, I think you wouldn't disagree with me on that. And that is what is most frightening about human cloning. That at some point they will be made by the wrong hands. Expendable armies of cloned human/machine hybrids (I mean don't look any further than 'Terminator' to see what I mean). Or even armies of workers--super efficient--making people redundant as producers of wealth. Follow the line or get zapped--you are expendable--step out of line you lose a life--after all it's too short (and too expensive) for dilly dalling. This dictator won't need people to govern, he could have his own manically sycophantic society, the world in his palm.

    I read on the BBC news site that they are experimenting with self generating (fertilising) cell replication and something about some hybrid cells containing genes from a cow and a human. That's how I thought of the pet Minotaurs, but I don't think I was exagerating, it will be possible eventually and knowing humans thirst for novelty and pleasure I wouldn't put it past them. Discussion of the ethical implications of this belongs to another thread.
     
  13. Ana Registered Senior Member

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    just a thought...

    Maybe politicians and lawmakers should focus more on protecting the rights of cloned humans since this seems to be inevitable (some country will allow it and people will flock to it, then we'll have to allow it in order to compete, isn't that the name of the game?).

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    I cloned enzymes back in college but whole humans is a certainly different thing. I mean, for one, the trial and error process is certainly painful for the poor creatures resulting from the unsuccessful cloning or partially successful cloning. You could say that the end result may justify the means but I can't subscribe to that idea on this one...too many unwanted babies, too many children in orphanages.

    Putting all other ethical and moral issues aside, let's focus on a more general level...

    Some of my concerns with this whole issue are that there is a reason why natural selection is in place (maybe that sound crude and rude but hey, keep an open mind). Certainly we want to improve the quality of life and for some that includes living longer (and that's not bad....it's natural for us to want to survive). Cloning might be used to alter our genes or just simply cure illnesses that would not be cured otherwise....that would most likely result in longer lifespans and thus, an increase in the population. But then what would we do with so many people in the world....eventually something is going to give if we can continue subscribing to the "survival of the fittest" idea.

    Not trying to be mean, I know what it's like to have the increased risk of having a child and/or having a child that has a greater risk of having my illnesses (and I don't wish it on him/her and hence I am considering not having children---not because I don't want to, I love kids), but I also wonder, isn't there a reason for people who are ill to have a harder time at reproducing? And if we start changing our genes to survive longer and also clone humans to replace more conventional means of reproduction then we will find ourselves with too many of us to handle...and we have to consider the possibility of running out of natural resources faster than anticipated. There are going to be many things that will need to be adjusted in order to insure the other side of "quality of life."
     
  14. rde Eukaryotic specimen Registered Senior Member

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    Re: just a thought...

    Why? As Cris is doubtless sick of pointing out, a cloned human being is a human being. You don't need laws to protect people with big ears or who came about via IVF, so why are clones different?
    I doubt this will be a problem; at least as you put it here. If resources are scarce, they'll become more expensive. If there are a million kids in the world and only a thousand babysitters, then people who like going out on a Friday night are necessarily going to be reluctant to have more sprogs. Unless, of course, it's so they can babysit their younger siblings.
    There isn't. It's like gravity; it's just there.
     
  15. Ana Registered Senior Member

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    well for us but for the rest of the ignorant population....

    WE know they will be just humans but I'm talking about people who are ignorant and will try to use the technology for inhumane purposes.....key word: TRY...and perhaps legislation will prevent or at least discourage any "funny ideas."

    If what you say is absolutely true about not needing any laws because it will be obvious that cloned humans are just like everyone else...."created equal" so to speak, then why the hell did we have to make ammendments to the Constitution (here in the U.S. anyway) to allow women to vote? Why did we have a civil war to give African-Americans freedom? Didn't they look human? Like I said, "just a thought."

    And your little "gravity" comment -- what if it weren't there? Any problems you could forsee that might affect our quality of life?

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  16. Jay Renalsds Registered Member

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    I think the cloning technology definitely has a future. Just remember that so far we are only cloning tissue, not human beings, and even this is meeting opposition. I think it may be a while before entire human beings are cloned, if ever. Its even possible that tissue cloning wont even get off the ground for some time yet, especially if bush gets re-elected and has some time to push his views on the issue. Don't get me wrong, I think this could turn out to be the greatest technological development since computers, but certain widely held religious beliefs may yet stop the further development of this technology in its tracks.
     
  17. rde Eukaryotic specimen Registered Senior Member

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    Re: well for us but for the rest of the ignorant population....

    I don't think legislation has ever discouraged funny ideas.

    The whole point about slavery in the US was that to many people, blacks didn't look human. Intelligent men spent years debating whether they were human, and some who believed them to be human debated how inferior they were. Equally, women are demonstably different to men (woohoo!). Put a clone up against a wall with five others, and no-one would be able to pick him/her out.

    Without gravity, there'd be no universe as we know it. But that wasn't my point. Natural selection isn't there for a reason; it's just there. Like gravity, it's nice that we have it - we wouldn't be here without it - but that doesn't mean it's there for a reason. In your earlier post you said "Cloning might be used to alter our genes or just simply cure illnesses that would not be cured otherwise". This has been going on for millennia; ever since Og discovered that if he rubbed a plant over a wound in his leg, he might not die an agonising death from gangrene (or "ug").
    The key to natural selection is adaptation. If cloning becomes widespread, we'll adapt. It's what we do.
     
  18. machaon Registered Senior Member

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    Human clones

    PRESIDENT COMDEMNS CLONES - AND ALL ENEMIES OF THE JEDI
    Rose Garden Press Briefing by the President
    10:16 A.M. EST

    THE PRESIDENT: Good morning. Yesterday, Americans of every stripe and persuasion were shocked and dismayed to learn that villainous liberal scientists have made the unthinkable a reality: biological duplicates of homo sapiens are being grown in laboratories like so many crazed and deformed rodents, and will very soon walk amongst us. Furthermore, my security advisors and I have reason to believe that these sub-human abominations, these clones, will in fact be employed to wage a war - most likely within the next calendar year.

    Today, I want to tell the good people of this country that not only does my administration unequivocally condemn this new breed of grotesque and morally leprous biped, we condemn ALL enemies of the exhalted order of Jedi knights. Yes, whether it be the Sith, the Hutts, the Sand People, the Boba Fetts, or even the vaguely Jewish Neimoidians - the United States stands ready to repel attacks by any and all clones, cloners, freaks and pinkos who stand opposed to the Godly metaphor that is the Force.

    Going forward, let clones everywhere be on notice - we are on to your little game. We see straight through your cloney charade. We can smell the formaldehyde on your slithery little tongues. And we WILL smoke you out of your dirty little petrie dish holes.

    Thank you.

    END 10:22 P.M. EST



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  19. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    Machaon

    you is a kool geezer say no more!
     
  20. amaroq Registered Member

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    The problem with cloning is that I can already see the prejudice coming out in people. Many have already mentioned certain things about "subhuman" or other such phrases to describe clones when they are people, born to other people, the only differencr being the conception process. No matter what people say, there will be discrimination. It is just human nature to treat those who are different (or seen as different) in a somewhat prejudice fashion. The scary part is that so many people already speak of the clones as organ banks and such. The only thing I can see coming from this talk is the beginning of another Holocaust. Also, I see clones being refered to as mindless drones whose only purpose is to make up a perfect army. I some how see history repeating itself (slavery)...will we ever learn? I hate to sound so pessimistic but I'm just stating one of the simple truths of human nature. I just hope that others will see this aspect of cloning in a similar light. I'm just saying we should be careful.
     

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