How Random Is the Universe?

Is the universe random at all? Or what we consider "random" is only a very complex pattern?

I was thinking the other day... If the universe is completely deterministic and we knew all the patterns, then we would be able to know the future, 100%. Maybe we could build a computer to process al the information and predict the future?

So in this sense, psychics exist, and they are able to predict teh future because they know more patterns then most people do. Also, people that have gifts such as being able to make any calculation within a second is also able to perceive more patterns then the average human being.

But how is this possible? How could the universe be completely deterministic? Would it be deterministic only for the short-term future? Or the long-term as well?

 

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THE UNIVERSE...

The general evidense.... when placed on one piece of paper....
suggests alot of what can be thought of as patterns.

namely... superclusters... galaxies... solar systems.... atoms...

a kind of mysterious progresive pattern.

i could explain it to you..... but few ever have eyes to see.

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-MT

 

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I would say it quite random. more so than it is deterministic, but on large scales things can be deterministic. its hard to quantify what is random and what is deterministic. I can tell you for sure that a cat at the center of a atomic bomb wont live (deterministic) but the number quantum mechanical fluctuations that are involved in each bit of matter and energy given off by the cat is mind blowing. think of it like the old double slit experiment, you may not be able to predict where each electron/photon/whatever is going to end up, but you can predict the pattern that many of them will make.

 

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Completely deterministic!

 

neither random nor deterministic. The universe is an interaction of probabilities which never really become anything but what they already are. Reality is not random in that random is an abstract human concept--random is merely our inability to percieve a pattern or understand a process. But reality is not deterministic either because of the nature of time and space (wherein all actions occur relative to each other, never at the exact same time, and nothing is absolute.)

 

Well said Roy. And bravo.

I'll only add this: to be able to determine the randomness of a system one must have access to enough data to sufficiently sample a full cycle. Given that we don't know what the cycle is, or even that we're dealing with a closed system, we could never come close enough to obtaining sufficient data.

 

Thank you for your answers

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So is it a mystery, then?

 

There is no such thing as random. We determine everything. Where there is life, there is order.

If there can be proven with math that a such thing as random can exist. We can build a quantum computer which can answer every question in the universe, because random is always the right answer to every question. Random input = Random output.

 

Can I add a little thought here that may stimulate some other thoughts?

I would like to draw attention to the nature of Pi. as an example of diversity without patterns.
We know that pi generates numbers without creating patterns ( so far any way)
We also know that Pi is a creature of logic, the division of a number by anothoer number.

We know that pi is not a random number generator as every number generated in the string of digits is a part of logical diversity generated by the division of a number with another number.

If one did not know the series of numbers were generated by pi we woudl assume randomness is present yet after studying this series ( say a string of a million digits) we can see that patterns are almost deliberately avoided by Pi´s logic.

So if one looks around and sees everything as an illusion of randomness yet realises that it is a randomness that is logically generated there fore not a true randomness dies to being fully determined we can conclude that the nature of true randsomness in the universe is in fact fully determined.

So with this in mind we have the notion of:

Determined randomness, seemingly paradoxed yet as decribed above not paradoxed at all.

To me this leads to an older thought about how if everything is absolutely determined by absolutely everything then it is impossible to determine anything as it would take eternity to do so.

If we asume that Pi is the reality of true randomness then we can allow the notion of randomness by design of logic to be realised as valid.

To further support the unique nature of pi it is the relationship of pi in describing a sphere and being the most ecconomical geometric shape in the universe as we know it.

Therefore one could conclude that a sphere by it´s very nature generates this absolutely determined randomness or infinite diversity that is observed around us. A self justifying universe could be percieved in this manner, not invoking notions of `coincedance`but merely how the very nature of what is justifies all things that are.

Any way just some food for thought.....

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No, because if we knew the future, we could change it.

If you have 1 billion numbers of pi, there should be equal amount of each number. Isn't that a pattern?

Pi is random because it's infinite. It has no end. There can only be a pattern if there's a limited number of numbers.

17836490363415890765
63036877777777746800

 

You cannot prove pi is infinite or that there is no pattern to it. Obviously there is a pattern, because there is a sequence to it, it's just an extremely long pattern. If you can prove that pi is for sure endless, then pi is not a number anymore, pi becomes the symbol for God.

 

Every act you do changes the future

 

There are two sides to the universe. The mechanical and the substance. Books have been written on this but I can't remember right now. The mechanical part is completely deterministic but the substance part is sort of like a lot more complex. Anybody knows what I am talking about?

 

I dont think anything is random, like its all cause and effect.

 

QQ,

Certainly some interesting thoughts, but you've made a few errors.

You seem to be forgetting that Pi, as a transfinite number, is nonetheless still just one member of a special class of numbers, all of which are a part of a descriptive system that we have created. Numbers have no ontological status beyond that of mental construct.

Actually, no you cannot.
You've erred here a la Fallacy of Division. Simply because one cannot identify the cyle, or termination of a seemingly random sequence does not entail in any way that it must therefore be ordered. Furthermore, even taking that fallacious conclusion and using it as a premiss to move on to apply the character to a different system is equally invalid. Just because you've identified an ordered system does not allow one to move to say that the parent system must share that character. This is the Fallacy of Composition.

 

If pi was finite, it could be proven. Infinity can't be proven... it can't be shown... it does not exist [as a whole]... because it has no end.

There's no limit to how perfect a circle can be, so there's no limit to how precise pi can be.

 

Nonsense. It's easy to show that, say, the root of two is not a rational number. Also easy to show that any number with a finite number of decimal places can be written as a fraction. Therefore, as root two is not a rational, it must have an infinite number of digits.

 

Incorrect.

As an irrational, all we can say for certain is that the number is the sole member of a set. This doesn't exclude the possibility that it may terminate.

 

Pi must have infinite numbers because a circle has infinite sides.

 

Incorrect.
If that were the case, all circles would have to be identical.
A circle has only one side. It does however, have infinite tangents.