False Christians? Adstar, some of these people were indeed "False Christians" most likely the leaders themselves, but probably not all of them. The sincerely "Devout", the "Real Ones", tend to follow their leaders almost like herded sheep. They can be taught, through fear of damnation, to throw out their own moral sense until they actually become amoral themselves. They are just taught that the killing they are about to perform is righteous and justified! Once they reach that state of mind they really are capable of killing others on the command of their leader. They think that their leader is being led by God Himself, after all. And they firmly believe that they are doing the very will of God! The Old Testament has many examples of this kind of behavior. Are Christians always "loving"? No, "True Christians" must obey the commandments of God or they are not following the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself. This sounds good at first until you realize that some of the commandments of God actually tell the believer to stone to death those people who fail to comply. "True Christian" parents, for example, are required to kill their own child if he or she curses them. This is the clear command of the God of the Bible! I could never kill my own child! I would guess that perhaps a "True Adstarian" would never kill another person, maybe even in self defense, but that is not the way of a "True Christian". Maybe you should start your own religion! Sign Me Up! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I fully understand what you are saying but there are only a very few basics which are required to be christian. People can debate (or even argue) about the rest. If you truly believe that Jesus was God incarnate in human flesh and that he lived on the earth, was executed but defeated death and came back to life to save people from everything they have done and will do wrong and if you truly admit that you are one of those people who does wrong and thus who needs to be saved, that's really it on the belief front. That is 'The Gospel' or 'good news' in essence. Every christian should be able to sign up to that (note that the various cults such as JW's, Mormons, Christian Scientists, Christadelphians etc. will not as they all deny the deity of Jesus). From that should follow the action bit which is to love God and love your neighbour as yourself, both implying real practical action. The fact that people disagree about some of the detail and choose different ways to worship is not really a problem. Ultimately you have to decide what you personally believe and how that is going to affect what you do. Whilst there are many organised religious groups, churches or denominations or call them what you will, christianity is ultimately about a personal relationship between you and your God, not about signing up to traditions, dogmas or any particular religious practices. You may find it helpful to have fellowship with people with similar beliefs (note not identical) and to worship together with them in a way that suits you, but that is your choice. Remember that God is not in the condemnation business. The same offer is available to everyone. You only need to ask. It appears to me that you are a christian but ultimately the only ones who know that are you and God. I do not for one minute believe that I know all truth or have all the answers. I learn more every day (as I do about all of life). I only know that which I know and have beliefs based on that knowledge. The instruction is to love God with all your heart, soul and mind. Note the mind bit. We are not to be unthinking followers of spoon fed dogma. We are to think! Inevitably if we do that, we shall disagree. That's life! There's plenty of disagreements amongst people in the Bible. I get the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that you seem to be aiming for some form of super sprituality which you believe should exist in christians but most of us are just ordinary people doing the best we can with life but always knowing that God is there with us. If you have a bit of money spare, I recommend a new book called 'The Bloke's Bible' by Dave Hopwood, published by Authentic Media (ISBN 1-85078-712-3). This is a set of reflections on various fairly well known Bible passages that he has done whilst drinking a pint in his local pub. It is interspersed with the curent real world life of the pub around him. He's an ordinary guy and the book is extremely funny but it also reminds people that our faith is all about ordinary people not the super religious, the super spritual, the super knowledgeable nor even the super moral (there's a great chapter about Samson!) All the very best with your quest. God will never condemn you for searching for the truth! kind regards, Gordon.
Not to be picky, but the complete and utter stupidity of this has always bothered me.. You say: "jesus was god incarnate" and then go on to say that "defeated death". If jesus is god, then the only supportable answer is that he can't die no matter what - and that his 'death' was never a death because he cannot die, being god. And in being god, he cannot ever die, (sorry, needs to be said in different ways a few times). In saying this, as jesus is god and god cannot ever die - then the whole death and defeating of death is nothing but complete and total horse testicle... given that jesus is god and god can never die. Unless of course you were to argue that for three days there was actually no such thing as god. The 'truth' of the situation, if you believe god cannot die and that jesus is god, is that jesus never died - because jesus is god and god can't die - and thus the whole 'death' thing is nothing but a farce to satisfy the intellectually challenged. Awaiting a dispute to this.
Yes many of them where devout and they believed the person they followed was right. Ones level of devotion even to the level of fanaticism means nothing to God if your devotion is to a man and your fanaticism is to carry out what they man tells you to do. You liken them to a heard of sheep. I prefer the example of the children who followed the pied piper in that old tale. True. But can’t you see they are following a man and not God. If people do not take any responsibility to seek the will of God for themselves, if they place their eternal salvation into the hands of another man then what can they expect? Christians sometimes fall down and fail to live up to the call to Love, But they will admit their failings to God, they will declare themselves guilty. Others though will seek to justify their hate and their deeds. Its about having the right attitude towards Gods will. That’s how we access His forgiveness for our failings. Jesus is that forgiveness. You told me once your dad is a Christian. You told me that you where a Christian also. If you where a Christian then you would understand the change that happened upon the coming of the Messiah Jesus. You should know that Jesus does not call on us to carry our the punishments on the ones who break the Law. He calls on us to be Ambassadors of His message of forgiveness to those who are guilty of breaking the Law. If we where called on to stone people for breaking the law then we would be stoning each other till the last two Christians where standing pelting each other with stones. Once again. Are you serious? Where you a Christian? Even most false christians know that they are not called on to do such a thing. What has happened to you? You know at one time i toyed with the idea of abandoning the name Christian. So many evil things have been done in its name, So much corruption and greed has been backed by the false ones who bear the name christian with the loudest voices, with state backing, control of official history and saturation media coverage. It seemed to me that so many people have got their minds so well wired to loath the word christian because the name is so bound up with both historical injustices and abuses of today that i would be banging my head against a brick wall if i tried to salvage the name Christian and reveal the truth of what it means. Then i thought to myself, Why should they have control of the name that means Messiah follower. I could call my self a Redeemerist or a Yeshuan or an I AMist. But i realised that no matter what happened i would be seen as a christian just like the rest. So i said stuff them all. I will be what i am. I will say what i believe and if that means i will be ostracised by "christians" and by athiests and by hindus and buddhists and by everyone then so be it. In the end the only One who i will answer to is the Ancient Of Days. Jesus made it clear to me what the consequences of such a decision is. John 15 18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’ The door is before you. But trust in God if you decide to knock. All Praise The Ancient Of Days
The truth of the situation is you do not understand just what death is. You see death as an ending of existence, not as a transition from one form of existence to another. The truth of the matter is that no one ceases from existing, not me, not you, not Jesus. So no one “dies” in they way you think people die. Jesus did experienced death, the transition. Not the ending of existence. Jesus did not ceased to exist and 3 days later suddenly re-exist, that’s not how death works. All Praise The Ancient Of Days
"True Christian" parents, for example, are required to kill their own child if he or she curses them. This is the clear command of the God of the Bible! I could never kill my own child! Did not Jesus say to obey the old laws of the Old testament? "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 and.... Faith does not abolish any part of the Torah as a whole (Matthew 5:17-20, James 2:10) Keeping the Torah is part of the faith that gets you to heaven (Matthew 19:17; Revelation 12:17; 14:12; 22:14) You will abide in Yeshua's love, if you keep Torah (John 14:15-23) as He abided in the Father's love by keeping Torah (John 15:10; Hebrews 2:17-18, 4:15) Faith in Yeshua does not cancel out what the Torah says, it establishes it (Romans 3:31) Torah is itself "liberty" and the standard we are to judge ourselves by (James 1:22-25) It is those of the flesh who are not subject to the Torah (Romans 8:5-8) If you say you know Him, and ignore His Torah, you are a liar (1 John 2:3-7) It does not matter if you are a Jew or a gentile, what matters is keeping God's Torah (1 Cor. 7:19) The "law of love" is that we keep his Torah - which is by no means a "burden" (1 John 5:3; 2 John 1:6; Matt. 11:29,30)
Regarding: 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' Please Consider: Matthew 15:1-9 1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!" 3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'" It looks to me like Jesus is completely upholding this particular Old Testament Law and He is even accusing these "teachers of the Law" of breaking it. "Why do you break the command of God"? They have been accused of wrongfully nullifying this very commandment of God for the sake of their tradition. They are even called hypocrites, etc. The unfortunate problem I see here, Adstar, is that the gospel according to Jesus is radically different from the gospel of Paul. Jesus tells his disciples to obey the Law and Paul does not. Both cannot be true can they? If I follow Jesus then I must obey the Law. If I must obey the Law then I must stone my own child for that is exactly what the Law says I must do. Now if I were to follow the traditions of Paul instead of Jesus then, yes, I would not have to kill my own child! Most of the churches in existence today are following a man called Paul not Jesus. That is why you will never hear this from any pulpit. Who then should I follow, Jesus or Paul? Thank You!
Don't be silly Adstar. 'the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism.' If you have anything extra to add to that - perhaps we all come back alive sitting on a cloud with wings, or perhaps we all reincarnate into goldfish then you are clearly misunderstanding what death is and need to, at the very least, provide some evidence to support the claims for this different version of death of yours. However, your faulty claims aside, let's continue.. So does everyone else that understands the meaning of death. Other people that try to add weird and completely evidence-less claims on to the end of what death actually means are the ones that have the issue - unless of course they can support those claims with something of merit, which alas.. you cannot. While for the third time now I would ask you to provide some evidence for your claim, and also ask that you not be so ignorant to use the word 'truth' with regards to something you can't even begin to support, what we do end up with is that there's no reason whatsoever to care what jesus did. There's nothing even remotely worthy of mention in the whole affair. He only did something the rest of us apparently do, (die and get up again). Well then, you clearly know more about death than everyone else. Now I just ask that you support your claims with something substantial. I'm ready and waiting.
Thank you for your response Gordon! I am not currently sure what to believe. I find what I regard as genuine contradictions throughout the Bible. This has made a huge dent in my confidence in the Bible and in how I relate to anyone who attempts to interpret it. When I try to understand what I initially regard only as an, apparent contradiction, I usually find that there are “experts” that will defend each opposing side of the contradiction vigorously and at great length. These “experts” usually both claim to understand the original language, and are reading the same texts but still don’t agree on the topic. So the more I look into some of these theological problems the more confused I often become. And over time the Bible, for me, has become more of a source of confusion, instead of revelation or resolution. You seem to like “The Message” version which is a paraphrase, not a study Bible. That is fine. I have a copy of it myself. But the author, Eugene H. Peterson has really only interpreted the original text of the Bible through the lens of his own personal belief system. Others have attempted the very same thing with different results because they are starting with a different preconceived lens. But even this does not fit, does it? For they are all supposed to have the same Holy Spirit who teaches them the very same “Truth”. And so the very thing that is supposed to be operating in this world to bring all believers to the one “Truth” is not. I do not think that I am really aiming for a form of “super spirituality” as you put it. I am seeking to understand the truth about many different topics and understand how they all fit together. At the moment they do not fit. They contradict each other. And if history is any guide they probably never will fit. As I have said, the church has been divided over very basic issues for centuries. Do you have to be baptized in order to be saved? It all depends on who you talk to and what in the world their church is teaching them. Why should I think that I could ever figure it out? Here is one very simple question that anyone should be able to answer from the Bible: Is God impartial in His dealings with man? The answer, my friend, according to the Bible looks something like this – No, No, Yes, No, Yes, No, No, No, Yes, Maybe, No, Yes, No… If you respond and answer with either a Yes or a No I can find Bible passages that will prove you wrong either way. This leads me to believe that the Bible is only human in origin and not truly inspired by God. Otherwise God would have to be the author of confusion. I will keep an eye out for “The Bloke’s Bible”. Thanks for the recommendation. Best Wishes!
There is the Law and then there is the carrying out of punishment for the breaking of the Law. These are two different things SetiAlpha6. The Law is still right but the carrying out of the punishment of the Law is removed from us into the hands of God. That is part of the New Covenant of Grace. People who break the law are still under a death sentence, Its just that the death sentence is eternity in the lake of fire, the ultimate punishment. God has offered Jesus as atonement for all who break the Law. Look to the example of Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. Did He agree with the crowd who wanted to stone her? No. Be clear that the woman has broken the law and was still under a death sentence, But Jesus has brought about an age of grace therefore He prevented her from being stoned to give her the opportunity to accept Him for the atonement of her sin before she would die. There is not contradiction between Paul and Jesus. All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Please show me where this is clearly taught by Jesus? Hmmm. Perhaps you have just shown me the existence of yet another Bible contradiction. Let me try and explain. In Matthew 15:1-9 Jesus says, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' He includes the death sentence as if it is still valid, commanded, and necessary. That is the impression He leaves with these folks anyway. Go ahead and kill your own children folks, just like the Law requires you to. Step right up folks! There is nothing written about grace here, just the opposite. It is all about condemnation and the error of voiding the Law with men’s traditions. Is He extending grace to these teachers of the Law or their children? No! Does He ever say anything like, “obey the Law but spare your children”? No! Where does Jesus communicate this here? But then in your reference of the woman caught in adultery, if I remember correctly, Jesus prevents the death sentence required by the Law from being carried out there since none of her executioners are without sin themselves. Is that correct? But that brings up yet another problem, Adstar, because no one has ever been without sin! None are righteous according to the Bible! The Bible contradicts this idea as well, incidentally, see Job & Noah. Anyway, if only a perfectly righteous person can carry out the Law’s death sentence, as Jesus is indicating there, then no one should have ever been killed in the Old Testament either, should they? Or do you suppose that all of those people who killed that man for merely picking up sticks on the Sabbath, for example, had never committed any sin themselves? Were they absolutely sinless, Adstar? If not, I guess according to Jesus, they were wrong to kill him after all! But then according to the Old Testament and the Law itself they were right in doing so. Does this make any sense? I guess we are all kind of damned if we do and damned if we don’t. Well, Paul teaches that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, correct? He also teaches basically that if you seek to be justified by the works of the Law (by keeping the Law), you have fallen from grace. But in the following verse, for example, Jesus teaches this man that salvation is by keeping the Law. Or did He deliberately deceive this man? Matthew 19:16-19 16And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18Then he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; 19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." This would be a cruel system, by the way, if He already knows that no one is ever capable of keeping the Law to begin with but He is still requiring them to keep it anyway or be damned. Your Serve!
One of the Pharisees came to talk to Jesus under the cover of the night, You should find What Jesus said to Him enlightening: John 3 1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. This is exactly what Paul preached, although he said the same thing with more words. All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Your serving i am returning. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Now lets review the scripture from a real Bible. Matthew 19 NKJV 16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” 20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. 23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” The young man asked Jesus what good things would earn him eternity with God. Jesus was about to demonstrate to Him that no one can earn eternity by the good things that they do. You think Jesus was cruel in what He said to the young man. Well Jesus had to be cruel to be kind just as i have to be cruel to be kind. People who want to earn their own place in eternity need to be brought to the realisation that they cannot achieve their desire. When people are confronted with the truth it often seems cruel to them because they desire to be self justified. They want to walk with pride and boast that they are better than other people. That they have achieved and others are failures, they want to boast like the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector in the temple. So the young man walked away with great sorrow in His heart because He could not achieve eternity in Heaven the way he wanted to achieve it. Jesus made it clear to the apostles at the end that what is imposable for man is not imposable for God. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! It is God that achieves it by the atoning intervention of the Messiah Jesus. So that people can fall short of what is required but still have eternity in heave not by their own good deeds but by believing in and trusting in The Messiah's good deed. He is requiring us to accept His will and to acknowledge it as good. That is keeping the law in spirit. He had provided atonement for us who keep the law in spirit but failure to keep the law in the flesh. Believing and trusting in the atonement He provided is as important as believing and acknowledging His will as Good. All Praise The Ancient Of Days All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I am still waiting for you to show me where Jesus clearly taught this. Or did you just make that up? Thank you! I am aware of these verses, but you are showing me even more problems here, not answers! John 3:13 says, “No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.” This statement is in contradiction to other Bible passages. Others indeed had previously ascended into heaven. There was Elijah for example in 2 Kings 2:11! And I think possibly Enoch also as well. Perhaps 2 Kings 2:11 is false. You decide! Also, is Jesus the “Son of Man” here in John 3:13 or not, Adstar? Jesus was on the earth presently talking with Nicodemus. But the real “Son of Man”, according to Jesus, was in heaven at that exact moment. It says, "who is in heaven." But Jesus had not yet ascended into heaven! More confusion! Time to make something up again, Adstar. John 3:14 says, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” I really wish it were this simple! But Jesus and some of the authors of the New Testament add the necessity of keeping the Law to this belief system in several other places in scripture. So we must add the Law in as well. Perhaps they were all wrong! John 3:17 says, “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” This is contradicted many times over in other parts of the Bible. He condemns numerous individuals throughout the four Gospels. It is also the Son who has been given the keys to Hell and it is the Son who will condemn and throw billions of people into it. He will indeed condemn the world, Adstar. I suspect that you already know this! Peace!
Here's a link to an arcticle about Micheal Evans. An outspoken texas preacher who believes we should use extreme violence in making biblical prophecy come true. A true "whack-job"! Scary stuff indeed. It pretty much answers the question of whether christianity is a peacefull religion. http://www.countercurrents.org/us-sikand171105.htm
Thank You! This man walked away deceived by Jesus then, Adstar! You are basically saying that, instead of simply correcting this man by showing him the "truth" that all he had to do was have faith, Jesus deliberately deceived him and let him walk away deceived? What if he did give everything away to the poor? Would that have saved him? You would say no, absolutely not! If not, then Jesus clearly lied to this man on multiple levels. So this man came to Jesus asking for the truth and instead received a lie? This man simply approached Jesus under God's own revealed terms. Keep the commandments! Do what is good! This was not his own way this was God’s way. Jesus did not make anything clear to His disciples afterwards either. He just confused them as well! Oh, now we understand! Lets See! What He told this guy is impossible for him to accomplish, and He did not tell him that, but it is possible for God, and He did not tell him that either. All crystal clear now! That man went away deceived by the “Lord of the Universe!” Love would have made it as simple and as easy to understand as possible! Love would not send this man down a false path, which leads to death and damnation. There are many wealthy Christians in this world, Adstar. Some of them are very humble people. Many of them have amassed their wealth from serving and helping others in this world. Others have only inherited their fortunes. Many of them believe that their wealth is actually a blessing from God. It allows them to help others in many different ways. Why then is this "blessing of God" the cause of them not entering eternal life? Or is wealth really evil and from Satan? Thanks!
Your not interested in listening. Your mind is set against the Will of God. All Praise The Ancient Of Days
