How old is Christianity?

It is as old as the day you accept it.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

People in North America were voyaging by sea some 8,000 years ago, boosting a theory that some of the continent's first settlers arrived there by boat.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3517229.stm

That's what I am talking about right now. Just that your religion "science" says this, which doesn't support what you said earlier. Man's understanding of science always changes by the way, yet it does get closer to the truth...

As for the dates, I honestly don't know. Since all of the scientifical data isn't really important to me, but I use it to show you the flaws in your own argument. Because this is what your teachers say, and these are the people that you believe. So naturally I don't believe in their numbers. Or estimations... but I can see the grain of truth. They are starting to realize, what REALLY happened.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

It will be a while then

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

I'd like to see more info on that DNA stuff if you have it on hand too.

 

How on earth does someone confuse faith with impericism like you are doing now?

I know the data that disproves you isn't important to you. Thats what is meant by the term confirmation bias.

No you don't.

 

dude you just didn't say anything but your opinion...link some info-- sources. So far still stands that BBC news/science says that earliest settlers probably came by boat. Balls in your court.

 

em·pir·i·cism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-pîr-szm)
n.
The view that experience, especially of the senses, is the only source of knowledge.

Employment of empirical methods, as in science.
An empirical conclusion.
The practice of medicine that disregards scientific theory and relies solely on practical experience.
-------------

Is that what you're talking about? Sorry if you took it that far. Or that now I'm biased/wrong because I linked a news article.

 

http://mormonscripturestudies.com/bomor/twm/lamgen.asp
From above:

[2] Jeffrey P. Haney, "Y. Researcher Curious About Your Bloodlines," Deseret News (15 August 2000); Lindsay Palmer and Roger Bryner, "Ethical Issues Surround DNA Research," Newsnet@BYU (28 March 2000); Carolyn Peterson, "BYU's Genealogy-Through-DNA Research Getting Boost from New DNA Research," Newsnet@BYU (28 June 2000); Allison Jones, "Y Molecular Group Works on Worldwide Family Tree," Newsnet@BYU (18 November 2000). See also <http://molecular-genealogy.byu.edu>.

[3] For instance, DNA analysis ignited public curiosity over whether Thomas Jefferson sired children with his slave Sally Hemmings. See the online resources supplied by the Thomas Jefferson Foundation ("Jefferson-Hemings DNA Testing: An On-Line Resource"). See also Philip W. Hendrick, Genetics of Populations (Sudbury, MA: Jones and Bartlett Publishers, 2000), 389-90.

[4] The extent to which DNA analysis is being used as a portal to the past is lucidly illustrated in Bryan Sykes, The Seven Daughters of Eve: The Science that Reveals Our Genetic Ancestry (New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 2001).

[5] Dan Egan, "BYU Gene Data May Shed Light on Origin of Book of Mormon's Lamanites," Salt Lake Tribune (30 November 2000); Simon Southerton, "DNA Genealogies of American Indians and the Book of Mormon" (17 March 2000); Jonathan Higbee, "Where Is the Lamanite DNA?" Despite a general lack of supporting evidence, at least one researcher at the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS) has found reason for optimism in linguistic research. See Brian D. Stubbs, "Hebrew and Uto-Aztecan: Possible Linguistic Connections," Reexploring the Book of Mormon, ed. John W. Welch, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1992), 279-81.

[6] While it is possible to find chance similarities at single loci, these have to be viewed within the larger picture. Kenneth K. Kidd et al., for example, report preliminary frequencies for three allele systems, observing that "[t]hese data make it clear that attempting to reach conclusions on population relationships from single loci is very risky—Roman Jews are most like Amazon Basin tribes in APOB and SST, but most like Cambodians at D20S5. Obviously, these gene frequency similarities cannot indicate close population affinities." Kenneth K. Kidd et al. "Nuclear DNA Polymorphism and Population Relationships," Genetic Diversity Among Jews: Diseases and Markers at the DNA Level, eds. Batsheva Bonné-Tamir and Avinoam Adam (New York: Oxford University Press, 1992), 37.

[7] Simon Southerton, "DNA Genealogies of American Indians and the Book of Mormon" (17 March 2000).

[8] Robert Jurmain et al., Introduction to Physical Anthropology, 8th ed. (Belmont, CA: Wadsworth, 2000), 44-45. Mitochondria are independent organisms that live symbiotically in the human body, within each and every human cell, although outside of the nucleus. Since sperm consists only of nucleic material, mitochondria are transferred to the next human generation through the mother's egg cell.

[9] Douglas Steinberg, "Genetic Variation Illuminates Murky Human History: Molecular Anthropologists Use DNA Markers to Chart Evolution and Migration," The Scientist 14[15]:10 (24 July 2000).

[10] Jared Diamond, The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal (New York: HarperCollins, 1992), 25.

[11] See A. C. Wilson and V. M. Sarich ("A Molecular Time Scale for Human Evolution," Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA 63 [1969]: 1088-93) and C. G. Sibley and J. E. Ahlquist ("The Phylogeny of the Hominid Primates, as Indicated by DNA-DNA Hybridization," Journal of Molecular Evolution 20 [1984]: 2-15), cited in Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza et al., The History and Geography of Human Genes, abridged ed. (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1994), 86.

[12] Michael D. Lemonick and Andrea Dorfman, "One Giant Step for Mankind: Meet Your Newfound Ancestor, a Chimplike Forest Creature that Stood Up and Walked 5.8 Million Years Ago," Time 158.3 (23 July 2001): 54-61.

[13] Robert Jurmain et al., Introduction to Physical Anthropology, 8th ed. (Belmont, CA: Wadsworth, 2000); Roger Lewin, The Origin of Modern Humans (New York: Scientific American Library, 1998). For an incisive new media presentation on human evolution see the Web site Becoming Human, <http://www.becominghuman.org/>.

[14] Allan C. Wilson and Rebecca L. Cann, "The Recent African Genesis of Humans: Genetic Studies Reveal that an African Woman of 200,000 Years Ago Was Our Common Ancestor," Scientific American (April 1992), 68-73. For an alternative point of view see Alan G. Thorne and Milford H. Wolpoff, "The Multiregional Evolution of Humans: Both Fossil and Genetic Evidence Argues that Various Human Groups Arose Where They Are Found Today," Scientific American (April 1992), 76-83. See also Christopher B. Stringer, "The Emergence of Modern Humans," Scientific American (December 1990), 98-104.

[15] Robert S. Corruccini, "Reaganomics and the Fate of the Progressive Neandertals," Integrative Paths to the Past: Paleoanthropological Advances in Honor of F. Clark Howell, eds. R. S. Corruccini and R. L. Ciochon (Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall, 1994), 697-708; Glenn C. Conroy, Reconstructing Human Origins: A Modern Synthesis (New York: Norton, 1997).

[16] Max Ingham et al., "Mitochondrial Genome Variation and the Origin of Modern Humans," Nature 408 (7 December 2000): 708-713; Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza et al., The History and Geography of Human Genes, abridged ed. (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1994), 89.

[17] Matthias Krings et al., "Neandertal DNA Sequences and the Origin of Modern Humans," Cell 90 (1997): 19-30; Ryk Ward and Chris Stringer, "A Molecular Handle on the Neanderthals," Nature 388 (17 July 1997): 225-26; Igor V. Ovchinnikov et al., "Molecular Analysis of Neanderthal DNA from the Northern Caucasus," Nature 404 (30 March 2000): 490-93.

[18] Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Genes, Peoples, and Languages (New York: North Point Press, 2000), 61-63. For a discussion that dates the first migration as early as 15,000 years ago see Ryk Ward, "Language and Genes in the Americas," The Human Inheritance: Genes, Language, and Evolution, ed. Bryan Sykes (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1999), 135-57.

[35] Dan Egan, "BYU Gene Data May Shed Light on Origin of Book of Mormon's Lamanites," Salt Lake Tribune (30 November 2000).

[36] Michael Crawford, The Origins of Native Americans: Evidence from Anthropological Genetics (New York: Cambridge University Press, 1998), 3-4. Crawford provides an incisive perspective, though he omits some recent research and focuses primarily on north American native populations.

[38] Michael Crawford, The Origins of Native Americans: Evidence from Anthropological Genetics (New York: Cambridge University Press, 1998), 4-7.

[39] See D. C. Wallace et al. ("Dramatic Founder Effects in Amerindian Mitochrondrial DNAs," American Journal of Physical Anthropology 68 [1985]: 149-55) and T. G. Schurr et al. ("Amerindian Mitochrondrial DNAs have Rare Asian Mutations at High Frequencies Suggesting a Limited Number of Founders," American Journal of Human Genetics 46 [1990]: 613-23), cited in Antonio Torroni, "Mitochrondrial DNA and the Origin of Native Americans," America Past, America Present: Genes and Languages in the Americas and Beyond, ed. Colin Renfrew (Cambridge, UK: McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, 2000), 77-87.

[40] Antonio Torroni, "Mitochrondrial DNA and the Origin of Native Americans," America Past, America Present: Genes and Languages in the Americas and Beyond, ed. Colin Renfrew (Cambridge, UK: McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, 2000), 79.

[42] Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza et al., The History and Geography of Human Genes, abridged ed. (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1994); Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Genes, Peoples, and Languages (New York: North Point Press, 2000).

[43] Colin Renfrew, ed., America Past, America Present: Genes and Languages in the Americas and Beyond (Cambridge, UK: McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, 2000).

[44] Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Genes, Peoples, and Languages (New York: North Point Press, 2000), 136.

[45] Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Genes, Peoples, and Languages (New York: North Point Press, 2000), 136.

[46] Bryan Sykes, The Seven Daughters of Eve: The Science that Reveals Our Genetic Ancestry (New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 2001), 282 (for dates see 281, 283).

[47] Antonio Torroni, "Mitochrondrial DNA and the Origin of Native Americans," America Past, America Present: Genes and Languages in the Americas and Beyond, ed. Colin Renfrew (Cambridge, UK: McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, 2000), 81-83.

[48] Antonio Torroni, "Mitochrondrial DNA and the Origin of Native Americans," America Past, America Present: Genes and Languages in the Americas and Beyond, ed. Colin Renfrew (Cambridge, UK: McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, 2000), 85.

[49] Michael D. Brown et al., "mtDNA Haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?" American Journal of Human Genetics 63 (1998): 1852-61.

[50] Antonio Torroni, "Mitochrondrial DNA and the Origin of Native Americans," America Past, America Present: Genes and Languages in the Americas and Beyond, ed. Colin Renfrew (Cambridge, UK: McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, 2000), 81-83.

[51] Theodore G. Schurr, "Mitochondrial DNA and the Peopling of the New World," American Scientist 88.3 (2000): 246-53.

[52] Michael D. Brown et al., "mtDNA Haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?" American Journal of Human Genetics 63 (1998): 1852.

[53] Bryan Sykes, The Seven Daughters of Eve: The Science that Reveals Our Genetic Ancestry (New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 2001), 213-20, 274, 281.

[54] See John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City: Desert Book Company, 1996) as an example of an argument for a limited geography and a summary of the more traditional hemispheric view. For an example of LDS interest in Haplogroup X see Jeff Lindsay, "Genes Linking Eurasians and Native Americans."

[55] "Problematic Role of DNA Testing in Unraveling Human History," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 9.2 (2000): 69-70.

[56] Theodore G. Schurr, "Mitochondrial DNA and the Peopling of the New World," American Scientist 88.3 (2000), 246.

[57] Miroslava V. Derenko et al., "The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia," The American Journal of Human Genetics 69.1 (July, 2001): 237.

[58] Genetic inheritance can actually be more complex than simply XX or XY. Many intersexed individuals inherit different variations of up to four X and Y chromosomes. For an interesting commentary on the U.S. medical response to such sexual ambiguity see Martha Coventry, "Making the Cut: It’s a Girl! ... Or Is It? When There's Doubt, Why Are Surgeons Calling the Shots?" Ms Magazine (October/November 2000).

[59] E. S. Poloni et al., "Human Genetic Affinities for Y-Chromosome P49a,f/Taq I Haplotypes Show Strong Correspondence with Linguistics," American Journal of Human Genetics 61 (1997): 1015-35.

[60] L. B. Jorde et al., "The Distribution of Human Genetic Diversity: A Comparison of Mitochrondrial, Autosomal, and Y-Chromosome Data," American Journal of Human Genetics 66 (2000): 979-88.

[61] Fabrício Santos et al., "The Central Siberian Origin for Native American Y Chromosomes," American Journal of Human Genetics 64 (1999): 619-28; Nestor Bianchi et al., "Origin of Amerindian Y-Chromosomes as Inferred by the Analysis of Six Polymorphic Markers," American Journal of Physical Anthropology 102 (1997): 79-89.

[62] T. M. Karafet et al., "Ancestral Asian Source(s) of New World Y-Chromosome Founder Haplotypes," American Journal of Human Genetics 64 (1999): 817-31.

[63] Bernd Herrmann and Susanne Hummel, eds., Ancient DNA (New York: Springer, 1994).

[64] Shawn W. Carlyle et al., "Context of Maternal Lineages in the Greater Southwest," American Journal of Physical Anthropology 113 (2000): 85-101; Dennis H. O'Rourke et al., "Ancient DNA: Methods, Progress, and Perspectives," American Journal of Human Biology 8.5 (1996): 557-71.

[65] Shawn W. Carlyle et al., "Context of Maternal Lineages in the Greater Southwest," American Journal of Physical Anthropology 113 (2000): 85-101; Dennis H. O'Rourke et al., "Ancient DNA: Methods, Progress, and Perspectives," American Journal of Human Biology 8.5 (1996): 557-71; Ryan L. Parr et al., "Ancient DNA analysis of Fremont Amerindians of the Great Salt Lake Wetlands," American Journal of Physical Anthropology 99.4 (1996): 507-518; Anne C. Stone and Mark Stoneking, "mtDNA Analysis of a Prehistoric Oneota Population: Implications for the Peopling of the New World," American Journal of Human Genetics 62 (1998): 1153-70.

[66] D. Andrew Merriwether et al., "Ancient and Contemporary Mitochrondrial DNA Variation in the Maya," Bones of the Maya: Studies of Ancient Skeletons, eds. Stephen L. Whittington and David M. Reed (Washington: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1997), 208-217.

[67] John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City: Desert Book Company, 1996), 93. See also Connie Kolman and Noreen Tuross, "Ancient DNA Analysis of Human Populations," American Journal of Physical Anthropology 111 (2000): 5-23.

[68] Neil Bradman et al., "The Genetic Origins of Old Testament Priests," America Past, America Present: Genes and Languages in the Americas and Beyond, ed. Colin Renfrew (Cambridge, UK: McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, 2000), 31-44.

[69] Nathan A. Ellis, "The Ashkenazic Jewish Bloom Syndrome Mutation blmAsh Is Present in Non-Jewish Americans of Spanish Ancestry," American Journal of Human Genetics 63(1998): 1685-93; Luis Carvajal-Carmona et al., "Strong Amerind/White Sex Bias and a Possible Sephardic Contribution among the Founders of a Population in Northwest Colombia," American Journal of Human Genetics 67 (2000): 1287-95. For an intriguing account of the Castilian Christian attempts to expel Jewish and Muslim heterogeneity from the Iberian peninsula and their tendency to treat and portray indigenous Americans as Jews and Moors with significant implications for more general quests for Amerisraelites see Tzetvan Todorov, The Conquest of America (New York: HarperPerennial, 1984).

[70] Batsheva Bonné-Tamir and Avinoam Adam, eds., Genetic Diversity Among Jews: Diseases and Markers at the DNA Level (New York: Oxford University Press, 1992).

[71] Neil Bradman and Mark Thomas, "Why Y? The Y Chromosome in the Study of Human Evolution, Migration and Prehistory," Science Spectra 14 (1998).

[72] Neil Bradman and Mark Thomas, "Why Y? The Y Chromosome in the Study of Human Evolution, Migration and Prehistory," Science Spectra 14 (1998); Mark G. Thomas et al., "Y Chromosomes Traveling South: The Cohen Modal Haplotype and the Origins of the Lemba—the 'Black Jews of Southern Africa,'" American Journal of Human Genetics 66 (2000): 674-86.

[80] Bryan Sykes, The Seven Daughters of Eve: The Science that Reveals Our Genetic Ancestry (New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 2001), 101. The anonymous FARMS editorialist seems oblivious to recent advancements on the question of whether Native Americans migrated to Polynesia. Matthew E. Hurles and colleagues—including Bryan Sykes, whom the FARMS author cites with approval—note that their study of Polynesian Y-chromosomes provided "no evidence for a Native American contribution to the Polynesian Y-chromosomal pool" (M. E. Hurles et al., "European Y-Chromosomal Lineages in Polynesians: A Contrast to the Population Structure Revealed by mtDNA," American Journal of Human Genetics 63 [1998], 1793-1806). See also Martin Richards et al., "mtDNA Suggests Polynesian Origins in Eastern Indonesia," American Journal of Human Genetics 63 (1998), 1234-37. Of course even if such evidence did exist, it would not buttress BoMor authenticity since the common Polynesian and Amerindian genetic markers are of Asiatic origin, not Israelite.

[81] D. H. O'Rourke et. al., "Spatial and Temporal Stability of mtDNA Haplogroup Frequencies in Native North America," Human Biology 72.1 (2000): 15-34.

[82] Copies of statements from the SAIIC as well as responses from participants in HGDP can be found at "Native Net, Human Genome Diversity Project articles from Native-L." See also Morrison Institute for Population and Resource Studies, "Human Genome Diversity Project Frequently Asked Questions."

[83] Martin Johnston, "Mormons Trigger NZ Ethical Concern Over DNA," The New Zealand Herald (17 May 2001); Kent Larsen, "BYU Molecular Genealogy Research Project Accused of Ethical Lapse in New Zealand," Mormon News (18 May 2001).

 

There goes your eyes blinking again. Go back and read the relevent threads.

 

what are you talking about?

 

For example:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=48841
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=48817

 

You manage to spam half the page but failed to support any of your claims about the population of the americas. And the DNA issue, which you brought up --aside from the point-- I was trying to make about the americas being populated first by people that sailed over on boats, not by the bering strait.

But i'll prove you wrong on either issue. Just choose which you want first... the DNA or the population of the americas.

 

No I didn't. Your confirmation bias just prevents you from seeing the link that proves what I was summerising.

No you are trying to make a point that it was colonised by boats from Israel and previously Babylon which I disproved.

No you won't. I already proved you wrong.

 

After I linked those articles from BBC---all of your posts therafter have failed to generate anything disproving what was said in those articles.

And the more important idea and point I was trying to make---that is supported by the articles that I linked, that the americas were indeed populated first by people that traveled by boat, which is in harmony to the point Marlin was trying to make.

You calling me biased, and eyeblinking, (whatever that is) and then spamming the thread with a reference to something that isn't even related to what I was talking about initially, only tells me one thing...

You're detracting from what you said initially--because you can't refute what modern scientists have discovered. You havn't proved anything to me except that you're not going to budge, in the irony, that you sir are biased. Not I.

Oh and you're wrong too!

 

You go, Nisus! And BTW, I sincerely doubt that Trilairian has actually read much of those references he gave you. It was strictly a cut-and-paste job designed to intimidate rather than inform.

 

you cant be anti, to something that does not exist, that is just plainly infantile.

roflmao, it will be a very long time ad-infinitum.
I say if your god is not happy with me, then let it, spite me now, and I will tell you all about how it feels to be smote tomorrow.

 

i dont think modern scientists discovered anything that had to do with babylonians and isrealites coming to america either by boat or land bridge. im pretty sure that there is an insanely heated debate that continues to rage among experts from the fields of archaology, cultural anthroplogy, linguistic anthropology, and forensics about who the first inhabitants of north and south america were. for a long time it was thought that the population known as the Clovis people were the first inhabitants, around 12,000 years ago but then later on evidence of pre-Clovis peoples was found in south america and less conclusive evidence was also found in caves in pennsylvania. the debate in fact continues to be about whether the Clovis and pre-Clovis people made an overland journey across the land bridge and spread out onto the continent and down the east coast into south america, or came down the west coast of what is now the US in boats and then proceeded through to central and south america that way. there is evidence supporting both arguments and in fact the truth might be some combination of the two. these people, in either case are believed to be descended from asiatic people and would have been closest in relation to what the eskimos are now. definitely nothing in scientific debate i have seen says anything about these people being possible isrealites or babylonians.

 

Geeser! why would I want you to be smitten? Why would you want to be smitten? and Why would Heavenly Father want to smite you? It's your right to say what you want, bro~ or sis if you are female. but...

"What am I that I should tempt God to show unto thee a sign ... Yet thou wilt deny it, because thou art of the devil. Nevertheless, not my will be done; but if God shall smite thee, let that be a sign unto thee that he has power, both in heaven and in earth; and also, that Christ shall come. And thy will, O Lord, be done, and not mine."

 

Anyways--Back to the topic of the thread; "How old is Christianity?"

To one who believes in Christ, the answer to that question is; it's eternal. What Christ taught was given to him from God the Father.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5: 19

The truth Jesus taught is the truth of eternity. It's as ageless as the heavens. The question should be, when did you learn the teachings of Christ? When did you learn the truth that makes the soul free? Not how old it is. The principles of love, are ageless, of self-sacrifice, of treating others how you want to be treated--all those things were given to Christ from God the Eternal Father.

To the unbeliever--How old is Christianity? well they can speak for themselves, their answers are very diverse. Refuse is refuse, regardless of where it's from, how old it is.

 

thats what I said, to believe in a sky daddy that looks after you, is totally subjective, as it is supernatural.

I dont but anybody who believes in a being, without any substancial evidence, is irrational, but they need it as a security blanket, as they cant think for themselves.

absolutely nothing, we can all be childish and irrational sometimes, if we did'nt have our subjective side we could not call ourselves human, but we must know what is fact(objective) and what is fiction(subjective).

I shoud'nt but I feel sorry for you as your an adult and must be quite clearly deranged to have reverted to a religious stance.

that is just a believers slant on trying to look intelligent, and to subjugates the masses, but it's just a cop out.

and even more ridiculous if we do.

they should of remained in the past.

man should throw off the chains of religion, and go forward in knowledge to a new humanity, the humanity of man who helps his fellow man, man who advances his fellow man, man who has love for his fellow man.
and not man who subjugates men, enslaves men, destroys men.
religion and the beleive in god, is the biggest crime on humanity, and needs to be irradicated.
if it was'nt for religion, we would not just be visiting planets with probes now, we would have been living on them.