How do you solve a problem called....Tony

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Cainxinth, Dec 8, 2001.

  1. Cainxinth Registered Senior Member

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    67
    Tony is one of the most passionate, relentless, and inflexible buggers I’ve ever encountered. No matter how trivial the point, he will fight it seems to his dying breath to make his voice heard. Unfortunately, for us that voice rarely offers anything even remotely resembling a rational, objective, or civil response.

    I think the only real way to deal with him is to ignore him. Lets make an experiment of it; for the next week don't respond to anything he posts. If he makes an argument against something you've posted that normally you would love to sling back at him, bite your tongue and hold back. In fact, I assure you he will have more than a few words to say about this post in particular. Show restraint, either he will just talk to himself, leave these forums for a new place overrun with his engulfing presence, or go mad. In any outcome, we win.

    In that spirit I declare the period between Sunday, Dec 9th and Sunday Dec 15: “No Tony Week”.

    Edit: If you are interested in partaking in “No Tony Week” respond to this thread with a

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    Last edited: Dec 8, 2001
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    You don't

    Unfortunately, good Cainxinth you don't solve this problem. To the other, I'm in for your week, but Î also submit that this latest tear he's been on is his desperate attempt to reclaim some of the respect he forfeit when he admitted by the course of his actions that we are not to give him any real serious consideration. I thought perhaps that sequence of posts had some impact, since he actually tried to have a serious conversation about Genesis in Ilgwamh's thread, but he couldn't resist the opportunity to make an ass of himself for those couple of days in general.

    Sure, I'm in for your week of comforting apathy, but I fully admit that I don't expect it to work; demonstrations like this only work when the target of the demonstration is intelligent enough to understand what's going on. Tony1 has never shown that intellectual depth. But sure, I'm in for the week off.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  5. Cainxinth Registered Senior Member

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    you're right he so tenacious that it may not work, but its worth a shot. if nothing else it will be interesting to see his reaction.
     
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  7. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    why not

    Why not. Though tony1-like-people make me only rethink and strenghten my possition, I would say that that would be a healthy change.
    >>>>>.....countdown started.....<<<<<
     
  8. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

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    *Originally posted by Cainxinth
    In fact, I assure you he will have more than a few words to say about this post in particular.
    *

    Really?

    *Originally posted by tiassa
    I'm in for your week of comforting apathy
    *

    Don't just sit there, do nothing?

    *Originally posted by avatar
    Why not. Though tony1-like-people make me only rethink and strenghten my possition, I would say that that would be a healthy change.
    *

    You wouldn't want to rethink your position.
     
  9. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    Your right, but i'm extending my vacation from idiot land to 2 weeks.
     
  10. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Ha ha, why not.

    Cainxinth, thanks for starting this. I have been largely ignoring his posts, and mainly just skipping over them without reading them for some time. I took a peek last week and thought I saw something reasonable and responded but his lack of civility soon reasserted itself, so I guess I’ll give up for good from now on.

    I have been hinting at making your suggestion myself several times but I also couldn’t see it that it would be a complete solution. I’m also aware that the world is full of a wide diversity of attitudes and opinions, and that we need to learn how to deal with most of these. But if someone is on the extreme like tony1 then I think your suggestion is justified.

    I guess that most of us here can see the irrationality of Tony1’s posts, but I wouldn’t mind that so much if he wasn’t so unpleasant all the time. It is perfectly acceptable to have deeply felt opinions but I believe it is always possible to express those views in a civilized manner. I think it has been that characteristic of sciforums, up until now, that has kept me coming back for the past 2 years.

    And this should not be seen as a dispute between ‘believers and non-believers’. Tony1 is largely indiscriminant with his incivility. Although I am sure the religionists may well feel reluctant to join this fray.

    So have fun.
    Cris
     
  11. Bambi itinerant smartass Registered Senior Member

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    I'm already there

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    Do you guys think that if we don't respond to him with anything for a whole week, he could actually even start his own thread?

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    Nah, probably not. He'll probably just keep on complaining about the posts we make in response to others.

    But generally speaking, I must admit I'm baffled. What do you say to a person who chose to close his eyes to all knowledge and experience in favor of a religious manual? Who lives in a cartoonish world of good vs. evil and equates insight with insanity? Whose internal world is the one true reality? I'm not sure you can say anything at all to change such a mind. And while the awesome power of fanaticism is manifest of late in the very tragedy of 9/11, perhaps it is more productive to drain the swamp instead of chasing after mosquitoes.

    I'll be adopting Cris' methodology.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2001
  12. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    I slept on it.

    And basically, I still think tony1 is a jackass, but I hate the whole idea of neglecting somebody based on their beliefs, no matter how ignorant or stupid they behave, really goes against my own beliefs.

    I mean the whole idea of pushing somebody out of the group is sick, in my mind. Its the same way small children act. We tell them not to leave people out of activities or whatever, and I can remember when I was left out many times, as well as when I was the the person who booted.

    Its like this; respect everybody the way you want people to respect you. I'm sure, deep down, tony1 actually wants to believe creationism and crap, because religion is where he finds comfort, but blocks out the sheer relevance and truth of evolution by refusing to learn anything about it, or diverting the subject constantly. This might be because he is afraid to go to hell as he was probably once taught stems off of so-called 'blashphemy'.

    So I dont know about you guys but I wont ignore tony1 based on virtue. You guys can act like little kids, but I think its just sad when a 15 year old (almost 16) like myself can behave better than full grown adults. I dont care if the guy wants to be that way, its fine by me. But I wont get caught up in you little 'poison making' escapades.
     
  13. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    19,083
    Chill Out Elbaz, it's only for a week. and no one is going to cast tony out. we just try to get his attention, nth more.
    tony will probably think of it as a test of fate, so no fear of him running away

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    Good Luck!
     
  14. Taken Registered Senior Member

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    I understand what you are all saying...and somewhat understand.
    Give Elbaz's point a moment of consideration.
    It is our differences that make the forum what it is. Tony sets badly with most people in his approach but is as entitled to it as any of us. Lets look for the good in what we see as bad
    1.He is relentless. Persistance!
    2. He is unyielding. Solid!
    3. He gets us thinking, digging a little deeper to combat his statements and defend our own stance, thereby encouraging thinking and self discovery on our own part.

    We all have a choice to read or not read, reply or not reply...but it is unfair to not acknowledge his right to be heard and be considered part of the discussion. It has always been the differences in thinking and openess to consider opposing views that have led men to great discoveries by sharing their own insights and ideas. I do believe, wheather his tactics are wrong or right, that Tony does in fact BELIEVE what he stands for and therefor isn't intentionally and with malice attempting to do harm to anyone.
    Just my 2 cents!
     
  15. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    Hi Elbaz,

    I understand your discomfort and I hope I might be able to convince you of a slightly different perspective.

    It is not so much tony1’s beliefs that we object to but his behavior. It is vital that we have a wide range of beliefs and opinions here otherwise the site would dissolve into boring agreement. I am a supporter of the freedom of speech and everyone has a right to be heard. I believe I have gained some small insights into tony1’s beliefs but I have not been able to delve very deeply because he usually responds with abuse. I remain interested in discovering his views but I see no need to be the recipient of endless abuse to gain the information. In short, he isn’t worth the effort.

    But it is not accurate to call this action by us as childish. In the adult world it is typical to isolate those that behave inappropriately. And if you ask who decides what is appropriate, then the simply answer is the majority. This is the basis for a democratic society. In the extreme we have Usama Bin Laden who has exhibited inappropriate behavior and he will be likely killed for those actions. Prisons and the legal system are all highly focused on inappropriate behavior issues.

    In this microcosm of sciforums most of us are here to enjoy ourselves by debating with others who DO have opposing views and opinions. But I would suggest that tony1’s behavior is disruptive to both those objectives. His continual insistence on using sarcasm, innuendoes, abuse, and cynicism, etc., as a standard, is highly frustrating and distracts from the intended topics. This would not be so bad but he picks on pretty much everyone across nearly all topics with time being the only limit. This is severely disruptive to, effectively, the entire religion forum.

    It would seem that if one wants to continue to debate in the religion forum then one must be prepared to accept abuse from tony1: That to my mind, and I think to most here is totally unacceptable. Either tony1 must learn to adjust his behavior or he must be rejected by a majority vote.

    Cris
     
  16. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    19,083
    agree

    I fully agree with Cris.

    no offence to you tony1, just our oppinion.
     
  17. Taken Registered Senior Member

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    I think anything that frustrates us or makes us uncomfortable is a good thing...it makes us MOVE!

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    )
    If anyone or anything can get my feathers ruffled than there is a lesson to be harvested or a higher truth to be learned, where I take that is up to me.
     
  18. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Taken,

    All of your statements seem quite reasonable and could be applied to most of us here but not tony1. Most of his comments are harmful and are malicious. He is capable of being quite articulate and thoughtful, so we must assume he says what he writes because he does intend to cause harm and be malicious, otherwise he would respond in a more acceptable fashion.

    It is exactly his malicious comments that make most here feel a need to respond and when they do they are met with further malice. The cycle never ends and the topics die as a result.

    Cris
     
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    37,148
    Taken ...

    1) Relentless: So was Hitler, so is Osama bin Laden, and, for more appropriate scale, so is Lon Mabon.
    2. Unyielding: So was Hitler, so is Osama bin Laden, so was Khomeni, so are the paramilitary groups tearing up British-occupied Ireland.

    3. Self-discovery, ad nauseam: I have to admit, what he is helping me discover is that I was right about Christians in the first place, when I was a little more youthful in my zeal. In the meantime, your point #3 seems to give him the benefit of validity and propriety. He has demonstrated a distaste for both. Simple dismissals are not thought-provoking; they reveal a lack of thought on his part. After nine months of his condescending behavior and outright rudeness, I must part from your attempt to find any academic or social redemption in Tony1's brand of Christianity. He's had ample opportunity to provide this forum with something of worth, and he's chosen instead to claim dominion over and intimate knowledge of people's thoughts, opinions, intentions, &c. He has chosen to declare his enemies part of the opposition to life: I might as well call you a hateful Nazi, then, eh? Think about it, for a minute: when he accuses people of being in the thrall of satan, why should I not accuse you of being the hateful, persecuting, evil Christian with a torch in one hand, a bundle of fagots on your back, and a solemn need for a purging? It is the same accusation: Tony1 chooses to characterize people as the worst being he can conceive of. After a while, the redeeming aspects of that tactic wear thin.

    Perhaps you could help point me toward the redeeming aspects of supremacist hatred.

    Elbaz's point is well taken, but Tony1 is one of those unfortunate instances like Tim McVeigh, where he wants to martyr himself this way, and seems to devote as much effort to effrontery as he can. Remember that he believes a Christian is only a Christian if, among other requirements, they are reviled for their faith. (It's easy to miss that point in among all the BS, I admit, but you get used to picking such points out of the river of crap he floats.) Well? He seems to be pushing for us all to revile him. Apparently, his supremacist notions have difficulty with the fact that a person is not wrong or bad for being Christian--he does, however, seem to wish to make an example of what aspects of a Christian make the faith detrimental to society. Since we don't seem to hate him inherently for being a Christian, he's doing everything he can to see if he can raise that hatred against himself, so that he might then stand atop the mountain and say, See, God? I'm your #1 fan, and I deserve to be saved!

    Think about it this way, Taken: he is among those who will remind that one's acts alone do not warrant salvation. He is an extreme case at Sciforums of the idea that since one's acts do not warrant salvation, one's acts must not have anything to do with salvation. He is confidently assured of his salvation, despite the way he treats his brethren (Matt. 25), despite the way he tries to limit his brethren and the fact that Christ advises against drawing that limitation (Matt. 5) He believes it is his Christian duty to treat people like shite.

    He's a detriment to the Kingdom of God, and he is a detriment to this forum. You will notice that in his entire posting history, there is not one single topic to his authorship. Why? Has he nothing to say except to remind others that they are possessed by the Devil and that he will enjoy looking down on them from Heaven while they suffer? (e.g.--What Christian enjoys the suffering of another?) He offers nothing to these forums except a disruptive voice that is afraid to establish anything but its own neurotic spite. We've tried being patient, we've tried explaining, and now for a few months, people have tried being pissed off. Short of giving him the crucifixion he so begs for, what solutions can you offer? People have tried communicating with Tony1, but he pretty much refuses it.
    Tony1 won't even acknowledge that the discussion is taking place. Heck, we've even gone so far as to ask him if he had anything genuine to add to this or that topic that he was posting in. More than once, the answer has come back that no, he didn't. He has chosen to exclude himself from the discussion, and as such, so long as he sticks his head in just to yell and disrupt the discussion, we will continue to wonder if this is really the best Christian faith has to offer. Assholes of his grade come by the gaggles in society; we can all try to respect them until there's no respect left. Or we can just nod and know that his behavior is the final product of a bad idea that should have left the Earth when its Savior did.

    It's enough to make us infidels look forward to the day when God calls the Christians home. The human race can has at least the opportunity to make some genuine progress, then.

    But really, we can only hope he serves some better purpose in real life than he does at Sciforums.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  20. Taken Registered Senior Member

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    "Think about it this way, Taken: he is among those who will remind that one's acts alone do not warrant salvation. He is an extreme case at Sciforums of the idea that since one's acts do not warrant salvation, one's acts must not have anything to do with salvation."

    Point taken...see what I mean...he is a reminder, there is a lesson.

    "1) Relentless: So was Hitler, so is Osama bin Laden, and, for more appropriate scale, so is Lon Mabon.
    2. Unyielding: So was Hitler, so is Osama bin Laden, so was Khomeni, so are the paramilitary groups tearing up British-occupied Ireland.

    3. Self-discovery, ad nauseam: I have to admit, what he is helping me discover is that I was right about Christians in the first place, when I was a little more youthful in my zeal. "


    See tiassa, he does serve a purpose..I do not have a number tatooed on my forearm, neither do you I suppose. I never said we would learn from him by his ability to reveal to us some unknown truth, but we may well learn from him in many ways...including seeing what it is we must fight against and not allow ourselves to become in our own beliefs and thinking. His helping you confirm daily that you were right about Christians, I would like to rephrase to say "most" or "modern" Christians, but that is up to you. Either way He has served the purpose of makeing the point to you that you must avoid that pitfall and not let the "truth" be dictated by a man but by your own experience with life and the search for meaning.
    Sometimes it is not just being reminded of what is right, but a daily reminder of what the price of the wrong way is that spurs us to continue to try to do better.
     
  21. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    I understand all of your points, and agree a bit too. Although I'm tempted, I still have to go with virtue. Tony1 isnt all evil, I'm sure. I know it sounds odd for me to be defending him, but I dont do it for him, I do it to do what I think is the right thing. You guys can ignore him and I'll understand, but keep in mind that ignoring your problems wont make them go away.

    I'm sure that tony1 is right now studying this post, and maybe it will help get the message across to him, but I still stand my ground, ignorance is not the solution.
     
  22. Taken Registered Senior Member

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    599
    Elbaz is correct it isn't a matter of agreeing with Tony, his beliefs or ways...but his right to have them. My rights end where someone elses begin and if you deny him you deny me and you deny yourselves.

    Elbaz I might add, I am quite set back by the revelation of your age...I found you to be quite intelligent and credible in your thinking from the start. I am ashamed to admit your age surprises me, ashamed in the fact that I should have never thought age should be a judge of wisdom any more than gender or race should.
     
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Check, and ... check.

    Well spoken--er, written.

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    Well, to look at you, for example: you are the statistical deviation. And at that point, we must revisit "definitions" of "Christian" and "Christianity". It's all well and fine to point out what it says in the Bible, and I believe you're familiar with my Communist Manifesto analogy; let me know if you're not, but there's no need to restate it if we're on the same page.

    By what measure do I assess Christians and Christianity? It's nice to be able to compare a claimed Christian to the handbook, but ambiguity and individuality being what they are, the basis derived from the Bible upon which I compare a claimed Christian is as subjective as Christianity itself.

    In the end, the only thing left to examine is the end product. Many people point out the charity work done by Christians, yet the simplest sociological mysteries must necessarily remain mysteries for this function to continue. Rarely do I come across Christianity trying to shortcut any of the problems it inherently creates among ill-educated persons. We can agree that Christianity looks wonderful on paper, even if we have disparate assessments of what the handbook says. But when we look at it in life, we see charities working to assuage symptoms derived from the divisive aspects of Christianity and other religions (Christianity is not solely at fault here). Our politics, our economies, our daily moral standards are heavily influenced by God and religion, and Christianity's daily contribution to my own daily endeavor is one of supremacist moralizing, shortsighted condemnation, and scathing bigotry. The day-to-day produce of Christianity is another conservative complaint about television, books, movies, or music; it includes people on the streets of my city willing to tell me that I deserve to burn in eternal agony for the crime of being born; it includes my friend's father, whose refusal to educate his children came from his born-again conversion and sudden rejection of the family values he had raised them by. It includes someone as close to me as my aunt, whose parental obligations end when her children disagree with her. It includes televangelists and Chick tracts and a host of self-righteous people. Tony1's contribution to this forum is to serve as a reminder that this is what the faith has become.

    Of those Christians to whom you refer whose approach may be more proper or palatable: we need them to come out of the shadows and stop being happy enough to be represented by such lunacies. Until they do, Christianity and its followers will bear the burden of a lunatic faith. We'd love to believe that Christianity is even a fraction of its stated potential, but there's no evidence to suggest it.

    Would you like a working parallel? Consider the bin Laden situation. Our executive has determined that in order to defend due process and liberty, we must suspend liberty and due process. Whether you or I personally accept secret military tribunals or not, We the People will have among our reputation the hypocrisy of denying due process while claiming to uphold and defend it. It's not me, but it's a label I'm prepared to accept for being an American. It's what my neighbors want and think is right.

    Likewise of Christianity. I figure when the situation gets dire enough, the "real" Christians will stage an internal revolution and begin demonstrating the positive power of Jesus. Until that representation is not a statistical fringe, though, I can only appreciate it in the dimension of the individual representing it. Thus, while it is easy enough to acknowledge those things I find positive in your posts (compassion, insight, fundamental trust), I find those attributes to be yours, and not indicative of the faith label you associate yourself to. You are a candle flicker amid a menagerie of dense and determined shadows. I truly think that if you shed the fetters of your Christian associations, you will find your heart more free to pursue that justice it seems to hold dear.

    To the other, you could always be the light that saves Christianity. But please understand that until the daily scheme changes, Christianity is most accurately represented by such void spite as we are accustomed to hearing from Tony1's bluster.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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