How did matter come into existence?

hi, raithere
this perfect universe- my yardstick, ( should i seek another?)
i would 'imagine' God has done the best He could.

 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: How did matter come into existence?

Just becasue there is a force, known as the casmir effect, does not mean that these short lived particles have mass, they could be massless particles, similar to photons, which are the carriers of electromagnetic energy.

The article that was posted said that these forces known as the casmir effect only have a range on the scale of nanometers. If you want to believe that all of the universe's diversity was caused by this, I must question, who has the more incredible fairy tales, and leaps of faith?

 

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Until you have actually observed 'nothing' (which you can't), I wouldn't postulate it. Anyone who claims that everything came from nothing ought to get their head checked. According to psychotic superstring theory our current universe emerged from the collapse of a 10 dimensional eternity that wasn't in it's lowest energy state. It's hard for someone to conceive of infinity, or a universe that always existed because we cannot process infinity. A five dimensional being could theoretically conceive of infinites, yet such a being is theoretical itself.

Now there are four mind bending problems:

1. We can't conceive of nothing
2. We can't conceive of infinity
3. We can conceive of these mathetmatically.
4. We haven't observed either outside of math.

So where does that leave us?

Pathetic human sensory organs! Blast this mind!

 

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Re: Re: Re: How did matter come into existence?

Thank you, Raithere. I was also referring to the following:

"...it was necessary to spend millions of dollars souping up the CERN accelerator until it could inject enough energy into the vacuum to make a few Ws [W bosons] appear and survive long enough to trigger Carlo Rubbia’s detector."
-- Timothy Ferris, Coming of Age in the Milky Way, 352-353

"The notion of pair production from a 'vacuum' state of a quantized field (both as a virtual process and as a real materialization of particles), is also a central building block in the modern field theory of strong interactions, quantum chromodynamics (QCD)."
http://www.nobel.se/physics/articles/karlsson/

"The basic idea is that, once you pump enough energy into the 'vacuum', you can knock the Higgs boson out of the condensate."
http://sandman.berkeley.edu/129A/SM.pdf

"In this experiment, W bosons are only produced as virtual particles but higher energy experiments have produced real W bosons both individually and in pairs."
http://www-e815.fnal.gov/wma-lab-web/writeup.html

biblthmp, please do some research before commenting on my understanding of matter creation.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How did matter come into existence?

As indicated above, there is evidence to suggest that vacuum fluctuations can become real particles with mass at high enough energy states.

I don't recall either Raithere or myself ever stating that it was our belief that this theory is true. I refer to my original comment about how our understanding of how the universe came into existence is by no means complete, but arbitrarily attributing it to a creator for whom there is no evidence is pointless, especially when we are left with the same question of whence the creator originated.

I originally introduced the "quantum fluctuation" theory because of its popularity in the field of cosmogony. This cosmogonic theory does, however, have a much stronger basis in reality than does the Christian genesis account, which I presume by your handle and your stated occupation you would be more likely to espouse.

 

You raise an interesting question. In addition to Raithere's excellent comments, I'd like to address your question from my own perspective.

It is not easier to believe that an eternal force/spirit may have always existed when there is no reason to believe that an eternal force/spirit exists even now. Besides, just because it doesn't make sense that matter has always existed doesn't mean it can't be true. Quantum physics has shown us that a lot of things that don't make sense are, in fact, true (e.g. wave/particle duality). I'm not asserting that matter has always existed, but we are safer to discuss the history of what we know exists rather than speculate on something for which there is no evidence.

 

The hypothetical vs the purely imaginary

Rather circular, don't you think? How can you measure something by itself?

"Imagine" being the functional element here. I can imagine all kinds of things; this has no bearing on their validity.

Not leaps of faith but reasoned hypotheses there is a tremendous difference.

~Raithere

 

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A very appropriate response chock-full of admirable wit!

 

raithere

reasoning power, and perception, are gifts from above. i'm not bright, enjoy quantum theory- and don't underwrite it; but at the same time, know the reality that god exists. i accept the view he does not, but that view means very little to me. in my terms, faith is built, not blind- and, i believe, it's a natural occurrence.
i would rather be on the inside looking out, than on the outside looking in. on the inside is peace of mind, on the outside, confusion.
...i don't know that much about god, either...

god- the god of genisis- is the yardstick! my 'imagine' was being low-key about it.

 

yeah, agreed, wit- admirable.
the beauty of the garden.

 

Firingseeds,

From the blob just above your neck, right?

Have you considered this probably negates your argument?

Something more from the blob above your neck.

You are talking about trust, a common mistake. But you are right that blind faith such as religious faith is built, but from indoctrination and lazy thinking.

To be unable to think is quite natural and very common, most animals do not do a good job, but this is where man does sometimes make an effort to overcome these primitive tendencies.

More accurately, the fantasy of self-delusion versus the confusion of reality. This is why so many billions choose the comfort and the fantasy of religion, it makes them feel comfortable, but has no bearing on reality.

 

Another popular theory in cosmogony:

"Another idea is from Stephen Hawking and James Hartle. Hawking proposed a description of the Universe in its entirety, viewed as a self-contained entity, with no reference to anything that might have come before it. The description is timeless, in the sense that one set of equations delineates the Universe for all time. As one looks to earlier and earlier times, one finds that the model Universe is not eternal, but there is no creation event either. Instead, at times of the order of 10-43 seconds, the approximation of a classical description of space and time breaks down completely, with the whole picture dissolving into quantum ambiguity. In Hawking's words, the Universe 'would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE.'"

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=541

 

Re: raithere

God and quantum theory are only incompatible if you insist on a literal interpretation of Genesis. Science observes the Universe and attempts to explain how it works. If you insist upon God as the Prime Mover then Science is quite simply the study of God's handiwork. What I don't get is why so many theists then insist upon limiting God. A few simplistic chapters falls a bit short of the reality that is before us yet Creationists insist upon turning God into some sort of super Fairy-godfather magically popping things into existence. Personally, if I'm going to entertain the notion of a Creator God I'd like him to be a bit more complex and developed than your average fairy-tale.

It's funny but I hear things like that all the time yet I find myself to be far less confused and agitated than most of the theists I know.

~Raithere

 

Re: Re: raithere

Ditto.

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Re: Re: Re: raithere

It comes from accepting reality as it is and not trying to force it to conform to our own desires and prejudices.
Most Christians spend an awful lot of time and energy attempting to get the world to behave properly.

~Raithere

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: raithere

Accepting reality for what it is, or at least what we can know it to be, has provided me with more contentment than I have ever known with any system of faith (second only to the contentment I feel with my "soul" mate, Jane).

It seems to me that religion serves two purposes. It gives a simple answer to the question "why", when in reality there are likely no simple answers. Secondly, it alleviates the tremendous human fear of our own mortality. Happiness, for me, comes with accepting that we do not know the answers at this stage of technological and human cognitive development, and accepting death as an inevitable part of life. No system of faith could replace that kind of contentment.

 

chris

hi,
what quality of reasoning power and perception are we talking about, chris. i have what u have- worldly reasoning, if i may term it such- and i also have the blessing of spiritual perception, which is not gained litely, but worked for. now, don't get me wrong with this spiritual perception stuff, as i stuff up a lot, vanity also is involved, and one man's depth can be another man's shallow. what i'm trying to say is that i have a good, basic foundation- a skeleton- to build upon, for, as the good lord say's, when the wind blows, the sand crumbles, but the rock stands forever.
'bright'- i'll let u decide on that one.
the reality of god is right before u, chris. just because u cannot see it, should 'we' be lumped with the same tar? it matters not to god if u see him, or not- for why should it? if u have a good heart, why worry so? i know the reality of god, and i can become unsettled about my fate, at times. innoccence ( or ignorance ) is a blessing.
a tree reveals it's fruit- whether it be bitter, or whether it be sweet.
cheers
i can't speak for the millions u refer to, but i can say this, what are u doubting? why doubt at all? if i didn't 'believe' in god, i wouldn't doubt, or search, one iota, but trust in my own strength of purpose... sadly, or gladly, that was just hypothetical.

 

ahh, now- raithere

a created thing builds upon created idea's, and it seems u have a way to go, yet, to discover that god may be a bit more complex than what u can imagine. did u know that truth is strength? can u realize that god made u so? can u realize that u have no real choices in life- none whatsoever? can u realize that advancement of humanity is also part of creation.
put i doll in a bath-tub, bring it to life. it will know nothing but the input that it receives. no passion, no love, no hate etc. give it love, it will never understand love until an opposite has been introduced. that's a magnificent creation taking place, but the doll only knows what it knows. the reality of jesus is , u may become an observer, and not the participant. no matter what i say, u will still absorb good fruit.
theists, creationists, what matter- it's who u know, not what u know.

 

ohh, by the way, i'm only working at about 3%- this is all elementary. no bragging, just strait fact.
glory to lord jesus.

 

Re: chris

Sounds like you're talking about Christian faith. Personally, faith is useless to me since it tells me nothing about reality and only serves to quell the perturbations of the ignorant.

Oh, boy.

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Doubt because the claims of Christianity are preposterous, especially given what we have learned about how the universe works since this monstrous work of fiction was concocted. What is wrong with putting your trust in your own strength and purpose, rather than in some mythical sky pixie?

Can you ever entertain the notion that your beliefs are nothing more than a well-concocted fantasy? A lie?

That sounds just like the perverse statement of unaccountability I would expect from a devout Christian.