Homosexuality - Nature or Nurture?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Cellar_Door, Jul 10, 2009.

  1. Betrayer0fHope MY COHERENCE! IT'S GOING AWAYY Registered Senior Member

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    Uh, I'm fairly certain India was super pro-homosexuality. Not defending anything, but I thought SAM should know that.

    Edit: Whoops, of course she knew that. I forgot who I was talking about.
     
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  3. Enmos Staff Member

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    Homosexuality was just (very) recently decriminalized in India.
    Article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/03/world/asia/03india.html?_r=1&ref=asia
     
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  5. superstring01 Moderator

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    You are very incorrect. See Enmos's above post.

    Homosexuality in India

    ~String
     
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  7. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    was some stuff on our news recently about it.

    there was a public march pro freedom and they added some coverage of some of the anti freedom extremists shouting about sex.

    there is a common ideal/moral construct doctrine in various different religions that basically says behave toward others as you wish others to behave to you.
    there is a VERY good reason for this basic construct of moral doctrine because it is required to follow the path of true love.
    WITHOUT IT you will not and can not obtain love.
    no matter what you try and preach, say, scream or command at the point of the sword.
    it is like trying to fit the triangle peg through the square hole.
    you can use a big hammer and smash it through but you no longer have a triangle peg or a square hole when your finished.

    you have peg in the sand that all your self worth and religion is founded on.
    as the tide comes and goes so does the peg and all your religion and society and way of life.

    such is the fatalistic reality of extremism and fundamentalism.

    if we did not evolve from birth to death then we would be a mineral deposit.
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    24,099
    You can't find a coherent, respectable, genuinely scientific study that has "found" anything like that.
    The psychosocial explanations remain more comedy than insight, nevertheless. Too many jokes about the mothering styles of gay penguins, sheep, chimps, etc.
    And nevertheless it is found in all human cultures and every known higher mammal. So apparently the reproductive hit is either not as great as supposed, or countered by some great benefit
    More jokes about Western Christian gay horses and flamingos and geese, setting up housekeeping together and building nests and stealing babies from fertile couples, coming right up.
    Your very own quote there describes some Chinese emperors with harems of boys - that was not so of all Chinese emperors, nor was it a passing phase.

    What your quotes and links support is the unusual nature of Abrahamic culture's blanket rejection of homosexual orientation as so much a flaw that even hints or tendencies towrad it are pejoratively labeled and ghettoized, and the contrast with other societies - such as the American Reds of the northern tribes, where some men of some tribes took on female identity generally, or adopted other roles commonly adopted by men with their sexual orientiation.
    That's because the Middle East and Orient was where Western Christian gay men could easily find sexual partners and live less secluded and sordid lives - Lawrence of Arabia being maybe the most famous, but thousands made the same journey.
     
  9. Cellar_Door Whose Worth's unknown Registered Senior Member

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    Why not? Whatever viewpoint you hold, surely a greater understanding of homosexuality is not a bad thing.

    Is this directed at me? If so, what 'complicated theory' of mine are you referring to? I have not put anything forward 'as fact'. Quite the opposite. In creating this thread I merely wanted to stimulate a discussion on the subject.

    That's as maybe, but it's not the point in question. We are talking about the causes of homosexuality.
    Almost everything has a cause or a motivation, but being gay is a bit of a puzzler. Procreation may not be the main aim of most sexually active couples, as the pleasurable incentive often serves as its own reward. But that's the original reason for intercourse between a man and a woman. So why do some people want to mate with individuals of the same sex?

    By asking this question I am not making any moral comment about gay people. Nor do I hope to find a definitive answer. It's just interesting to think about.
     
  10. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

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    Well, you mention it in passing a little later without developing it really(which I quote below), but what causes heterosexuals to deviate from "baby-making heterosexuality" in the first place?

    Many couples (including many I know personally), have not already or may never procreate, thus willfully defeating the elementary biological result which sexual intercourse is supposed to result in. Already present then is a strong example of a species (Homo sapiens) bucking the presumed biological programming in that they knowingly seek to defeat that which supposedly is the culmination of "natural" sexuality AKA birth control or abstinence or whatever frustrates and prevents procreation AKA continuation of the genetic line.
    Obviously there is a strong conscious desire by some heterosexual couples to avoid conception and procreation. That in itself is a huge deviation from basically all other species.


    Why do humans masturbate? Regardless of your sexual orientation, many if not most people masturbate, at least at some point in their lives. I think males masturbate more frequently, but I'm not entirely sure...
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/h204278732u0x4gj/

    Is a person completely disgusted by and rejects their own gender and genitalia?
    Do they enjoy giving themselves pleasure via masturbation? If so, then at least they aren't averse to pleasuring their own gender even though it is their own person they are pleasuring. Maybe they find their own genitalia exciting?

    Is it at all farfetched to think that someone would not only find their own genitalia exciting, but also be excited by the genitalia of others who share their gender?

    Is it farfetched to think that two people with the same genitalia and gender would be interested in each other, at least in the sexual sense?

    It's funny that people can have differing tastes in food, music, politics, colors, humor, philosophy, religion and spirituality (or lack thereof), etc etc etc but somehow it is IMPOSSIBLE that people can have differing tastes in sexuality!
    Even those acceptable heterosexuals can have differing tastes in women or men, regarding breast size or body size and weight, or how stereotypical your gender representation is (really masculine or really feminine), or how intellectual you are, or how much money you make, or whether you want children or not, blah blah blah...
    But if you find your own gender attractive, suddenly WHOA!!! There MUST be some really good explanation for this! The gender barrier simply CANNOT be breached unless something extraordinary (or extraordinarily horrible) has gone totally wrong!!!
    Why is that?

    As far as the studies the original post mentions, I have noticed that the purely secular and politically correct sources tend to favor a biological and immutable cause, while the religious sources tend to favor the psychological and environmental causes. The latter interests portray homosexuality as something that can and should be averted.

    I think people put too much weight on the biological functioning of sexuality and attraction without considering all the complex psychological factors that humans are subject to. Whether it's nature or nurture or a combination of both, it seems that both sides want to simplify the picture of human psychology and attraction. If there is a "right" way to be humanly sexual, then why are so many other diverse areas of human preference not under the same scrutiny?
     
  11. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    2,762


    does not compute does not compute does not compute
    danger will robinson ! DANGER !

    quick all you clean god fearing people
    to the most expensive building in the community that is only used on sundays !
    we must be told what god wants us to think by the only man god talks to.
    god does not permit free will !
    now do as i say because my word is gods word !
     
  12. Cowboy My Aim Is True Valued Senior Member

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    3,707
    I'm going with "nature".

    I'm heterosexual. At no point in my life did I choose to be attracted to women. I just am.

    I don't see why it would be any different for gays and lesbians.
     
  13. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    2,762

    ok i will give it a go.
    however i do state that your thought processes do suggest a level of stoic impasse seeking self validation rather than seeking knowledge.
    But i am actually capable to put all that aside and address the topic and see where it goes.


    it seems to me that there is some information and discussion missing from this debate, although some posts i have ignored because they seem to wander off into realms of conjecture on non base concepts.

    let us start with terminology shall we ?
    soo at least we may attempt to get on the same page for a starting point.
    defining heterosexual sex as having a "cause" is needed.
    thus homosexual sex must also have a cause.

    what now comes is your level of frontal lobe dynamic fluid ability which i am trying not to bang my head against a brick wall over.

    you see we don't actually need opposites.
    just as much as we do not need sex.
    but... if you are going to actually suggest the concept of opposites as if it is some type of human nature and physics principal then we must move off into the philosophy forum.


    homosexual is not an opposite of heterosexual.
    thus just as much as cause and effect is not a dynamic of sexual drive, be that homo hetero or any-oh-you-like-oh.

    probably worth a mention about the villages in china which supposedly are almost exclusively homosexual men.
    the one child policy
    and India.

    why ?
    because we must eliminate nurture bias as a mainstay.
    i think it is fairly safe to suggest India is quite strong in nurture bias toward heterosexual patriarchy along with china who in spite of having a matriarchal base construct in social nature are patriarchal as an overt control mechanism.


    i have to get ready for work so i will continue this later.

    think of this
    women have only just gained their personal freedom in the western civilised countries and along with that comes sexual freedom.
    thus we have only just established "sexual freedom" in the last 50 years.

    how old are your moral constraints and who do they serve ?
     
  14. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

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    Wow. What exactly are you getting at? I know you quoted from my post, but I'm not sure where your sarcasm is going.:shrug:
     
  15. Cellar_Door Whose Worth's unknown Registered Senior Member

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    Please go and look up the definition of Stoicism, riple. Using the word incorrectly doesn't make you sound more intelligent. And self-validation?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    In what way?



    Please show me where I talked about a 'concept of opposites', or suggested any philosophical yin and yang reasoning behind heterosexuality.

    Every person in the world (with a few obvious exceptions) would not exist if sex between a man and a woman had not occurred. One of our strongest, most basic instincts is to reproduce, and the orgasm is mother nature's reward (and incentive) for fulfilling our duty. Sex is two humans mating with eachother, much the same as any other animal would.

    Yet, since the dawn of time, a significant minority has been born without this instinct. 1% of the population is asexual, and has no sexual leanings whatsoever. Roughly a tenth only desire to 'mate' with their own gender, which means they can never reproduce and pass on their genes to the next generation. The 'cause' of heterosexuality is plain to see, but what is the reason behind being gay or asexual?

    How can you have the audacity to accuse others of 'wander[ing] off into realms of conjecture on non base concepts'.

    The one child policy, whatever its shortcomings, was put in place to make sure population growth didn't cause suffering and shortages. Above our instinct to reproduce is our instinct to survive.

    What village? Link please?

    What are you talking about?
     
  16. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    :soapbox:
     
  17. Enmos Staff Member

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    43,184
    Wash your mouth!

    lol
     
  18. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    11,529
    Who cares if it is nature or nurture?
     
  19. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    yeah i get that a lot.
    it is all in the delivery (soo the comedians say).

    i am a liberal social democrat in case your wondering.
    that means i don't mind if you want to jump off a bridge, and i am happy about my taxs being used to wipe up the mess or put you back together in hospital afterward.
     
  20. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    2,762

    i would if it would not get the conservatives sexually aroused with their pedophile sadist fantasies of days gone by.
     
  21. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    i am pro aborted gay marriages

    ... oops hang on !
    the fundamentalist/extremist inbred pedophile farmers from the bible belt are trying their hardest to make an abortion of gay marriage, they don't need my help.

    i mean i am pro abortion
    pro stem cell research
    pro same sex or alien marriage (why should they not be as miserable with just as high a rate of break up as married couples!)
    pro social welfare
    pro regulation of business
    pro anti violence
    pro pro's (women need on the job protection too)
    pro equal rights
    anti church combining with state
     
  22. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    When & how & why did you decide whether to be homosexual?
     
  23. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    Attempting to compare homosexuals & sociopaths is desperate absurdity.
    It doesn't matter what causes you to spew hate, intolerance & schoolyard bully braggadocio, it doesn't mean you should do it.
     

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