Homophobia & Racism

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by RainbowSingularity, Sep 17, 2019.

  1. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,038
    they seem to be connected
    what makes them soo attractive ?
    why are they such hard core sexy man love partners in the same ideological bed ?

    i noticed SNL re-evaluating a comedians fit with their audience in the news
    they decided racism and homophobia was not what their audience was looking for in a comedian.

    yet it seems to sell so well to the tin-foil hat brigade

    what i have wondered is if there is an association with psychopathy

    please discuss etc ...
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,289
    Should homophobia be construed as:
    Fear of momosexuals
    or
    Fear of homosexuality
     
    RainbowSingularity likes this.
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. mathman Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,644
    My guess: people who are unhappy about their lives need to blame something - racism and anti-gay fills this need.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,553
    Same thing. They're afraid of contamination. They're afraid of what they don't know or control about themselves. The more afraid they are (i.e. don't know themselves), the more aggressively they oppose the symbol of their own fear. If you're 99.5% sure you're happy being straight, you can probably associate comfortably with people of other sexes. If you're 86% sure, you'll probably avoid gay men, but tolerate women without violence, though you might dislike activism from either. If you're less than 70% sure, you're likely to be a vocal - or even physical - homophobic misogynist.
    It's a little more complicated in homophobic women - usually religious in origin, and most often associated with other fears regarding human physiology.

    As for the racism, that has two different geneses.
    One: Every pyramid must have a lowest tier. If you're close to the bottom, you want that lowest tier to be some group other than yours.
    If you're close to the top, you benefit materially from a constant struggle between the lowest tiers - elsewise, they may unite and topple the whole thing over on you.
    Two: Once a history of oppression exists, it features adversaries, perpetrators and victims.
    We may be able to forgive those who have mistreated us, but we can never forgive those whom we have mistreated. Their very existence is a condemnation of us - unless we can believe that they deserve it.
     
    RainbowSingularity and sculptor like this.
  8. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,038
    fears ...
    Vs
    indoctrination
    Vs
    adoption of ideologies to pander to inferiorities
    Vs
    attachment to hate concepts to maintain a singular outward process of hate(kinda like ADD or ADHD where a singular focus must be maintained to maintain self actualization)

    sitting under neath that is the culture of the sexual predator
    the corruption of power & control role-models and the adoption of sexual self actualisation as a process of exterior physical fear need to attack and destroy things to avoid the internal feelings.

    ... thus the Ego(which i eluded to in my opening post)

    notice how racist homophobics are naturally aligned to be sexual predators
    sexual predation is their normality

    is this the Ego loosing its grip on reality ?
    an immature Ego ?
    a childs Ego in an adults body ?
    an Ego that has never gone through puberty ?
    etc ...
    discuss
     
  9. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,038
    that is quite a big stumbling block
    more so for african american women in the USA(schizophrenic culture moralities & hyper polarized)
    there is quietly accepted violence toward gay women in africa also.

    funny thought
    'look for the pyramid, it is easy to sit on the bottom and then topple it over so you become at the top'

    thus the moral & cultural cancer of the terms "law-maker" & "bringing to justice"

    needs...wants...desires...sex...food...shelter...
    it is difficult to navigate realatavisims
    because it is difficult does not make them invalid

    there are differing layers

    someone raised in a closed community where bigotry is normalised has no comprehension of sexual or racial or cultural bigotry

    where does the need fit ?
    the need to have sex for entertainment ?

    how is the need to have sex for entertainment engaged in their cultural normality of social acceptance ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,331
    The underlying thread of most homophobia/xenophobia/racism/misogyny is homophily; the preference for people like oneself.
     
  11. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,038
    biologically programmed xenophobia ?
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,331
    There is certainly an evolutionary benefit in treating outsiders with suspicion, and physical similarity (along with behavioral similarity) are certainly two of the principal means of determining 'us' vs 'them.'
     
  13. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,553
    Not if some of the "thems" are your own sons and wives! That's both a societal and evolutionary liability: it causes internal conflict, rifts, factions,and fractured families.
    Those are three different categories - four, if you colour-code xenophobia. Also, they manifest on different levels, with different causes and driving forces: the societal (systemic - usually about power); the regional (tribal - usually about group solidarity) and the personal (psychological - usually about self-esteem).
    It's not a one-sentence phenomenon.
     
  14. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,038
    colour coded micro-phobioids ... lols
     
  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,974
    They are connected; both are forms of supremacism.

    The brain chemistry of empowerment is attractive.

    Remember that at the top of the bigot pyramid, somewhere, is a man: In the U.S., for instance, we have the (angry) white (cishet) male (anticatholic) Christian has traditionally enjoyed the most privilege. When these American birds of ominous feather gather, we can try the catch-all, men who hate everything, and the women who love them.

    An interesting example: The terf wars landed in my Twitter feed a couple weeks ago, and what stands out most is the idea that this so-called radicalism is apparently really popular feminism in Her Majesty's dominion, and it's only when I look at the proverbial everything else that goes on in this period that it really does make sense: There is a reason why such feminism should be popular among the British, as it strives to help women achieve their proper place and potential under a man. Of course British radicalism aims to serve traditional power.

    The thing is that the world is scary, the future unknown, and new concepts, influences, and outcomes alter people's understanding of how the future should go. As more of the world around a person seems harmful, and as individuals perceive dwindling empowerment, some will reach or lash out in order to establish a refernce point; the empowerment or authority to leave that mark, sometimes, is all they feel they have left. This becomes the measure of their empowerment. Not every domestic abuser was known antisocial before it started; even the petty rewards of, say, what goes on around here, eventually drain even righteous utility. Even if we think we have found an object worthy of such fear and scorn, there comes a point at which exercises in futility are simply about gratification. And then at some point, they're not, and people are left with whatever skeletal justifications they don't seem to have actually explicitly considered, before. Those who dig in, time and again, to hold and even push the line, essentially gamble against becoming what they contest.

    Consider that at some point over the last couple years, it started feeling like I was bludgeoning the noncompetent; to the other, noncompetency, by that assessment, would be alarmingly widespread. It's just that most people don't go out of their way to advertise it like that. The part that I don't get, though, is that if they are right, then why do they act like the guilty? It's as if some part of them still recognizes they are wrong, and they cannot silence that voice of dissent.

    A note crossing my Twitter feed a couple weeks ago made the point: Should he accidentally accuse a casual drinker of alcoholism, the one thing the other will not do is prove him wrong by going on a five-day bender. Some years ago, a neighbor here at Sciforums tried the stupid line that Obamanoia was a policy argument, that the first black president forced non-racist conservatives to look racist because he was just so dirty and scary. That manner of thinking has come so far in American conservative circles it's now a political cartoon trope all its own. Of all the arguments I've heard, over the years, about how people were forced to do something antisocial—(e.g., oppose human rights for women, homosexuals, transgender, nonchristians, nonwhites, &c.)—because someone else failed to meet their self-gratifying expectations, these latter-day iterations just aren't the same. That is, I accept that people had some stuff to work out about men who have sex with other men, but the Gay Fray really was about women, and we're this far along the way, and I just don't believe pretenses of traditionalism that can't properly recognize certain basic realities; they're disqualified for being either disingenuous or noncompetent, and any reasonably capable, well-intended human being ought to at least be able to acknowledge certain obvious reality. (To the other, it's not like I can make that disqualification stick in any practical sense.)

    Even still, however people were tripping up about the aesthetics of donut punching, flaming lisps, and mustachioed effeminance, it is easy enough to note the men have not been chasing each other down in public restrooms, demanding to examine each other's prostates.

    More to the point, the misogyny was already there, and whatever confusion we might acknowledge about failures to comprehend homosexuality, it wasn't the Civil War that turned whites against blacks; nor was the arrival of oral contraception what moved men to presume they had some right to dominate women.

    When someone needs the devices of supremacism, they become inherently more sympathetic to other forms of supremacism. It wasn't so long ago, for instance, that someone I know made the point of reminding that he does not fit a particluar description of the average white supremacist, and even went so far as to suggest that anyone who says otherwise is in lala land, but the really weird thing about it was the tumbleweed and crickets moment spent wondering at the straw man, because that was never the point except according to his own fallacy. There is also a microcosmic example hinted therein; if he couldn't understand the discussion he countenanced, it turns out that his usual response is to establish his reference point for empowerment by constructing a windmill and tilting with it. And there are times that seems incredibly particular and personal, but it's also really common human behavior, such that yes, we can occasionally witness it in naked performance. At any rate, his most apparent connection to white supremacism is the fact of being a white male, and thus just sort of imbued in it, but also and more immediately and apparently influential is his sympathy on at least a couple fronts in his life with the language of usurped victimization. One of the reasons he sounds so sympathetic to white supremacism is because he is sympathetic to the rhetorical structures; this sympathy, in turn, seemingly derives from his need for such rhetoric in other aspects of his life. And, again, the underlying behavior is very much human; what any of us do with it is a separate question.

    And toward that question, we see what many people do with the supremacist devices of prevailing historical narrative within a society.

    The less empowered people feel compared to the unknowns of larger-scale considerations, the more willing they seem to be to take it out on each other. And in such spectra, ceteris paribus is not in effect; as disenchanted with the system as we are supposed to pretend eighty thousand American voters in three states were in order to vote for even worse, it's also true that this bloc we might examine can generally say, well, at least they ain't black. And many can say at least they ain't women. Because as much as corporations suck, DUI adjudication is a racket, privacy is an illusion, and you can be fired for no good reason, same goes for women and people of color, and it is impossible to watch this part of our American struggle play out without noticing the conflict between the call for economic justice, and argument against disrupting economic justice by upsetting the powers that be by talking about things like racism or sexism or classism. That is to say, sure, we hear the economic justice pitch, but neither are we surprised, in the end, those voters chose against women and people of color; in the end, their pitch for economic justice was just the latest excuse for what they want and need, and every time now more than ever.

    Indeed, for these it's an ouroboros: They perceive themselves economic victims, so they attack others who have it harder, with the effect of reinforcing the institutions they perceive victimizing them economically, and thus blame those others they attacked for the economic victimization, and 'round about and 'round about and 'round about they go.

    So the only thing they get out of it is the thrill of harming others, which they somehow see as some just entitlement. Which, in turn, really does sound rather quite attractive as brain chemistry goes. Too bad about that apparent neurotic conflict though. Of course, they can just blame it on melanin and estrogen.

    And at some point, it really is that loopy.
     
  16. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,038
    this has thrown me a little as there are several clearly different types of domestic abusers.

    are you referring to the more mainstream sadist ?
    or the underdeveloped sexually dysfunctional child in an adult body ?

    in in self realisation of frailty become more abusive toward others and start publicizing more extremist ideologies.
    you see this happening in western aging males in adjacent structural systems equal in media voice to leadership.

    "the last brutal days of the empire" as it were
    the inner sadist must bath its self in blood, be that ideological or real.
    i have been wondering how long this will play out for and if the new global alt-right nationalism would adopt such sadists as their leaders and start ethnic cleansing.

    this is what i have been studying for the last few years
    semi-subconscious narcissistic defense as a cultural narrative of self justification intrinsically laced into the personality construction.
    from what i can tel it is a developmental cultural expression of cultural environmentals.

    the subconscious knows it is wrong
    while the higher mind knows it is wrong
    but the functional addict that drives the Ego and sexual self identity is a hard core junky

    billy bunter stealing pies sitting in the corner masturbating to his scenery then complaining that the next person who walks in and tells him to clean up the mess and put back the stolen pies is being a sexual pervert.
    it is in essence a sense of sexual projection of the self feeling disgusted at the self identity.
    self esteem etc etc etc....
    what makes up the inner person and what they think of themselves.
    matched with the socially normalized new paradigm of the narcissistic defense projected as a force of bullying(to replace normal bullying which is considered socially unacceptable)

    this is what i can reason for nazi males raping black males before they kill them
    the same process of rape and sexual abuse of weaker males by males seeking to dominate the social group. etc

    the personality adoption of normalizing the narcissistic
    and thus its narcissistic defense
    like a cave man making rules on how to abuse others
    the inner process is serving the outer justification
    the outer justification is held together by functionality and the extremely hard to unmask inner self image.

    projected sanctification of the prey animal female victim as having some type of rights.

    you remind me of a openly-bi women i know
    a real life survivor
    fantastically mentally agile
    physically stunning, most men turned their head to watch her
    not homophobic
    not trans phobic
    extremely liberal
    she once asked me as she was getting ready to go out as she was trying on various items
    "does this make me look like a tranny"

    it stuck with me.

    knowing how people perceive you and in knowing how you wish to be perceived...
    she knew exactly what she was asking and knew exactly how i would comprehend her question.

    the dictator parading as a liberal

    the modern socialistic wiki leaks whistler blower
    the burden of self accountability to report, but the compulsory self criminalization and vilification for doing so
    and in so is the corporate model of moral culture
    irony yes
    no wonder extremism can thrive in most corporate structures

    building the mechanism that self justifys by proxy
    though more so a moth tot he flame of self annihilation more so than evil intent
    and self annihilation is perfectly reasonable for good Christian & Muslim folk.

    indeed
    the cultural cancer that is manifested to turn the entire ecco system into a mono-crop
    i wonder if this is what may fascinate some about such brutal empires like the Romans and the mongols etc...
    the ability to validate a group acceptance for the lack of caring for others and a vindication for sadistic bloody behaviour feeding the primeval brain physical sensory functions to drown out the higher mind and reason centres.
    note prisoner of war and concentration / death camps / cults and christian like cult farm/groups (bible belt etc) protein starving

    hence my interest in the global African swine flu decimating global meat supply to poor children.
    will this breed a new slave class of mentally damaged children ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  17. pluto2 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    933
    Many people on the Internet are psychos and I have almost no doubt about that.

    My experience with Americans in general was not so good, especially Americans who post on Internet message boards.

    One guy on Google groups even said that he will go medieval on me just because I didn't agree with Capitalists and their economic and social policies.

    And in some other forum some guy said to me "meet me at the flag pole after class. Your ass is grass son."

    Also in a forum called brazzilforum/brazzilfbrief where I used to post under the name "X4D" a poster called Macunaima offended me very seriously.

    This Macunaima guy said that no girl or woman will ever want to date me or have sex with me.

    Macunaima also said that I dig abuse and that he's not proud enough from dishing it out if that makes my little willy get all chubby.

    You can see everything Macunaima said to me here:

    https://alt.usage.english.narkive.com/Z8b1ehR4/what-is-the-origin-of-rude-language-like-this

    Macunaima also told me that I deserve laughs and not slaps and called me a little Afro-Jewish emo boy.

    I stopped interacting with people on the Internet a long time ago because nothing good or constructive ever comes out of these interactions.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  18. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,038
    thanks for your post
    so you are a lesbian jew ?
     
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,974

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    You know that bit when they talk about a serial killer, and how people should have known because they saw him running over squirrels with his bike, or crucifying injured birds, but wrote it off as boys being boys, or some such? Not every domestic abuser, or, more generally, affectingly antisocial individual, was always so openly antisocial. Much of it is sublimated even in cases when we say it should have been obvious. The rewarding sensation of empowerment can be addictive. Maybe we just thought we were being manly, but we didn't go out of our way looking for fights. I don't know how many men believe themselves the first time they apologize for domestic violence, but not all of them got married for the purpose of securing a punching bag. What might seem like socialization—(e.g., machismo as play, skill, and custom)—might not display diagnostic antisociality until it finds a peg to hang on. What seemed like necessary violence of fighting back, in the schoolyard some years ago, takes on a new feeling, and the monstrous spectre reveals itself.

    And when we think of the part about how he does it because he loves her, and why does she make him do this, at some point he genuinely believes it. Is this a logical result, or something more akin to addiction?

    We can try this: The first time he smacks her, suddenly he acts horrified and apologizes, and it's pretty clear he "didn't mean to". But what does that actually mean? Is he distressed at having hit her because it's wrong; or because he didn't want to show it, and now people know? Did he not mean to be violent, or did he not mean to screw up and be undisciplined about how he visited that violence unto her?

    It is easily possible for a man to reach this point with his violence contained within a respectable, socialized shell, not because he isn't aware of the violence, but because he thinks it has merit. And, yes, this is a societal standard. But the particular focus might be invested elsewhere, and in communities where one can sublimate that antisociality in conventially-accepted prejudice such as racism and general male chauvinism, and which gets wishy-washy about its principles regarding violence when the question is violence unto women, the fact of what he is or carries within him does not make itself clear until later.

    The key word is, "known". A lot of these were antisocial to begin with, but they never would have known. Remember, in American society, and to some degree Western culture, there is a time and a place for everything, and in many cases, the lessons particular generations seem to have learned is to try to keep that stuff behind closed doors.

    In re a typal spectrum of domestic abusers, I am more referring to that at least some of them experienced something akin to a moment of clarity driving them further into the behavior, or, less inversely, something akin to a first proper fix. To this day, we will find places in these United States where boxing—that is, training to get in fights with other people—has long been a godsend intervention against violence less acceptable than organized contests of ritual brutality. And, sure, somewhere in there were at least a few who had that anime-like moment of intense and fulfilling recognition that whatever horrifying thing they are on about is what they were meant to do in this world.

    It's probably not quite so clear when one recognizes that first emotional rush of inflicting violence against an intimate partner, but when something just "feels right", humans tend to notice.

    An expression from a quarter-ecentury ago:

    That's right, my name is Danny Boy, and I like to drink at night. I go down to the pub, wherein I buy myself a pint or three. I like to go out drinking; the spirit is my life. As soon as I come home and lay eyes upon my darling wife, saying, "Oh, Danny, won't you come home earlier tonight? Your daughter doesn't know you; you're giving us a fright when you say—"

    Say something's wrong with anyone who's not like me! With you the violence just comes so easily. You never learn, I have to teach you constantly. With you the violence just comes—hush, now.​


    (Floater, "The Sad Ballad of Danny Boy"↱)

    We might wonder, if circumstance suggests we should, whether our Danny Boy, as such, came up in a home featuring substance and violence, which is likely, all things considered, and even barring stereotypes about Irish heritage. Because it's also possible he didn't. In either case, something about his antisociality feels normal to him, but that sensation of empowerment is attractive.

    Meanwhile, it can go on for years, and apparently the neighbors never notice until the coroner shows up to transport her body.

    We're considering a range between comfort of tacit habit, to the one, and e'er more demanding addiction, to the other, for this subrange of abuser. And some of them were not known to be antisocial until this or that particular combination of circumstance, behavior, and perception of empowerment and fullfillment scorches so many seeds to germination.

    I don't know, there might have been a short answer to your question, but I haven't sussed it out.
     
  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,974
    Going medieval is tough-talk from the movie Pulp Fiction. Flagpole and assgrassing is standard American schoolyard stuff from before the days of shooting the place up.

    And whether Macunaima is forty or seventy or seventeen, this is how he gets his jollies. There are lots of people in the world, like that, both online and vis à vis; it's all they have. If I mention there is a pathway by which Jesus is a walking antisocial and delusional disorder the faithful have clearly misinterpreted, it is to highlight a certain contrast: It is easy enough to feel sorry for the people who dig in so hard, because that petty hatred seems all they have, but much more difficult to sacrifice one's entirety for the first cheap sociopath that comes along. Indeed, if such an inefficient formula is what He intended, we're probably looking at it wrongly. We might thus apply: To extend unto M some measure of genuine human sympathy and care for the fact of being such a wretched soul—i.e., to appropriately feel sorry for him—is an easy enough notion to countenance. But how can you help this fellow who finds himself hungry and sick and in a prison of his own device? If you're supposed to destroy yourself for this one, per obligation to Christ, such as the example has it, then Jesus is a fucking psychopath trying to set society, and thus humanity, to destroying itself in order to bring about a proper Kingdom of God wherein we have all gone home to either eternal life or absolute death. And if He gets off watching people destroy themselves for futility, well, that would actually make some manner of literary sense, albeit one that describes a self-begetting circle jerk.

    More realistically: Take the schoolyard example. There is likely nothing you can do to help M, and as such, you're only wasting yourself worrying about it.

    Compared to the dumb shit people have said to me online, over the years, I think of someone I ought to be able to call a friend, for having known him so long, and I'm sure at some point he actually failed to lie to me, but if I say I can't remember the last time he was honest except by accident, it's because years have passed since I could have confidence in pretty much anything he says. But that's just it, he seems to say what he thinks will suffice in the moment, but can't keep track of it all, and what is really, really weird is that for all the obviously-timed vagary, and considering what look like accidents of actually saying what he thinks, he still seems to expect, years later, that nobody should notice. There probably is a lot he and I could talk about, but the only way I've found to have a conversation with him is to agree with everything he says before the discussion starts and spend my role affirming him; at least, I think that's what I'm supposed to do, but just can't bring myself to shovel that much pigshit for the sake of wasting my time shoveling pigshit socially gratifying antisociality in need of validation.

    Who knows, give us enough decades to go through it, and ... uh ... right. Meanwhile, if he was someone I could pretty much ignore, like any number of people in the world, that would be one thing. Since I can't, it's unclear to what degree I ought to give a damn. Meanwhile, he continues to winnow his repertoire, and these years later, we're supposed to pretend there is nothing going on.

    Which raises another question: Just how long have you been so entangled with M? How much power have you granted him in your life, and why? You linked to an old discussion, and that is what it is, but: Why is any one example affecting? I can recall incidents over a decade ago with this other I should be able to call a friend, but the only reason those occasions are significant is because the pattern is consistent; whatever the problem is, it's been going on for years.

    Most of the question marks are for your own consideration; there probably isn't much I can say about the answers. But if this continues to be significant to you, then go ahead and plant a flag, claim the hill, and figure out what you can see and understand from that vantage; if it's a defensible position, you should be able to hold it long enough to disassemble the devices the other sends against you, and cast the pieces to gather and decay down below.

    It won't necessarily stop the other; but it will make him matter less.

    Meanwhile, M's haughty style of shit-talking is its own search for empowerment. Most bullying belligerence is. And, toward the question of how individuals get along with each other, electronically or in the flesh, so also is a lot of reactionary truculence. And, in looking at the two abstract sides of the argument, so also is much of that third faction, the middle-roaders who disdain hard responses and attack because they think it's somehow discrediting. If the argument is, "Fucking die, already!" and the response is, "Fuck no, asshole!" the third faction will point out that you're not going to be very convincing when you say things like "fuck no", and call people assholes.

    In the search for empowerment, it is true that there is truth; but in a quest for empowerment, we ought not be surprised if it really does seem most people treat truth as just another hunk of dried-up bullshit on the table. Black people will never meet society's standard for being polite enough while asking to not be murdered for the color of their skin. Women will never meet society's standard for being polite enough while asking to not be raped. Any pretense they can be despite the consistently demonstrative evidence to the contrary is simply doing its part to perpetuate the problem. And it ought not be nearly comparable, but some people in recent years are making it so: Some targets for internet harassment can never be polite enough to get some opponents or harassers to behave in good faith.

    Think of it this way: At some point, something can be all someone has left; this has always been relevant to bullying and harassment, or even identity notions such as masculinity, in which the difference between love and evil might not be an act itself, but can be a state of mind.

    Sometimes that ferocity is what tool we have at hand; for some, is is the only tool they have left.
     
    RainbowSingularity likes this.
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,974
    re: Sketching the problem [1/3]

    [Note: It seems I am going to pry this thread wide open because of certain overlap. These posts are derived from notes circa March, 2018.]​

    If we start with misogyny as an example, the difference between leftward and rightward political manifestations tells me a bit about how a particular iteration works, but that's it. More generally, the fundamental problem with supremacism is not whether it comes from left- or right-wing sources and arguments, but that it is supremacism.

    Cooperative social endeavors, generally speaking, are not suicide pacts; this metaphorical application is observed per the point that the proposition of civilized society is itself implicitly not a suicide pact; American society explicitly declares it is not a suicide pact. In this application, the term "suicide pact" refers to execution of conventional standards in such a manner as to destroy the convention.

    †​

    There is a disclaimer that goes here, about the next couple posts: The suicidality displayed is not entirely literal. It threw me for a loop, at first, and then I figured it out; the author is alive and well, today.

    Additionally, there is the bit making an obvious point that what the author describes is not by any means definitive. The reason this rant resonated eighteen months ago, and continues ringing today, is the number of other people who encounter these behaviors who are trying to figure out why the description sounds so right. We've all encountered elements of it along the way; the question isn't a matter of conspiracy, but, rather, culture and subcultural iteration. And it's one of those things where we might hesitate to use certain words, such as "cult", because I am already aware that within this particular subcultural iteration, context of "creed, code, and cult" does not appear to exist. But, yes, there are observable behavioral commonalities associated with certain names, ideas, and identity assertions, and repeating coincidences of behavior and subject matter are not insignificant.

    Behavioral cult as component of identity assertion is by no means an extraordinary idea; it behooves us to give some reasonable consideration thereunto.

    Here is a joke: With apparent behavioral cult, as well as emerging code, it is not insignificant to consider that one of the movement's heroes is a media producer whose credits include the sitcom about a television show about nothing. That is to say, alt-right is not a religion, but can be argued to represent a "Creed of No Creed".

    Constraining to blandly equivocated, featureless dualisms is the sort of practice that only obscures details. Meanwhile, the question of civilized society versus willful antisociability is not nearly so dualistic; there are diverse iterations of civilized society with vastly different implications, while diversely antisocial behavior is, quite simply put, disruptive, and its diversity is primarily important in terms of etiology, pathology, and communicability, that prevention, prophylaxis, and remedy might be reasonably understood and applied.

    At any rate, there's a lot going on.
     
    RainbowSingularity likes this.
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,974
    re: Sketching the problem [2/3]

    In the spoiler is a tweet thread by MsHappyDieHappy, February, 2018, part one:

    NOBODY is talking about how the online depression community has been infiltrated by alt-right recruiters deliberately preying on the vulnerable.

    There NEED to be public warnings about this. 'Online pals' have attempted to groom me multiple times when at my absolute lowest.

    The common railroad stages of 'helpful' linking to 'motivational speakers' goes 'Jordan Peterson ---> Stefan Molyneux ---> Millennial Woes. The first is charismatic and not as harmful, but his persuasiveness leaves people open for the next two, who are frankly evil and dumb.

    People in these communities are often drowning in despair and susceptible to corruption by charismatic, lucid evil offering them what seems like the only lifeline. I know nobody reads my tweets, but I hope somebody stumbles on this and second guesses their influences.

    The alt-right offer people with absolutely nothing a sense of a loving 'extended family' and give the directionless a sense of spiritual destiny. The truth is that their ideas are brain poison to depressed and anxious and will exacerbate all your symptoms.

    I have seen vulnerable people melt into paranoid messes through this stuff, and their 'friends' do not care. The happy figureheads of these communities (Spencer, etc) are the bullshit frontage. Read the chat or comment section and you will find nothing but utterly broken souls.

    Mark Collett and his goons destroy depressed people's lives while offering them a friend and a lifeline. Be aware. Be safe.

    Yes, it didn't work on me, but I'm not anything special and can easily imagine that if they got me at a certain stage in my life I would have yielded. It starts SO seemingly harmless. Everything is buried under layers of subterfuge and euphemism until grooming is complete.

    I cannot help but feel people like Sargon, Dave Rubin, Jordan Peterson, Lauren Southern and Styxhexenhammer are ABSOLUTELY aware their videos are FREQUENTLY used as alt-right primers in online communities of lonely, anxious young men. How could they POSSIBLY not be?

    I was invited to a Discord server after expressing general depression, suicidal thoughts, etc. It soon became clear it was an alt-right mob. I don't mean gamer liberals with Pepe avatars. I mean Jonathan Bowden fanatics, Anders Breivik supporters and ethnostate advocates.

    The racism conversations were worked towards first by bashing 'mainstream religion', which amounted to a lot of talk about Muslims and then 'globalism'/big business', which amounted to a lot of talk about the Jews.

    To be clear, I don't think Peterson is alt-right, but he IS directly funded and exploited by them. A primary gateway to their message. He's 'their guy'. I found him to be a very captivating talker initially. The man has a charming intensity about him and can be humorous.

    He has an inspiring manner about him – fatherly. The panacea of his message is that meaningless, depressing, isolating society stems from shadowy 'neo-Marxist' cabals. From this exact conclusion the alt-right then led me to 'cultural Marxism', an antisemitic conspiracy theory.

    The next step in my alt-right red pill crash course was Stefan Molyneux. Unlike Peterson, I didn't fall under his spell. He spoke like a cult leader. I was left wondering what the fuss about this Phil Mitchell lookalike motherfucker was all about.

    One of the subsections for the Discord was the war room. Organised action merely amounted to the mass down voting of 'SJW' interviews or media trailers

    People may be wondering how I could just hang with fascists like that if I wasn't one of them...

    When the very pit of one's stomach is full of utter revulsion for the universe and being alive, numbness consumes all. I wasn't attracted to fascism, but I was ambivalent about it. This is fundamental to how they ensnare (some) depressives.

    A bunch of the group planned on attending the now infamous Charlottesville rally. It was sold as a Unite the Right rally for everybody against political correctness rather than an exclusively alt-right rally, so many of the 'normies' were interested in going for the social aspect

    Again, this is how they operate. 'We will be friends with you.' That can be an immeasurably powerful statement for people. Most of these young men were mildly above average in intelligence and shared the same nerdish hobbies. For some it was their only chance at a social life.

    An 'alt-right dating group' was formed. Everybody was male. After about 30 men posted their bios, the group died.

    Millennial Woes was to be my big red pill moment. People were so excited to hear my reactions to seeing his videos that they logged in specifically, having followed my initiation for a while.

    This excitement about me was not something I was accustomed to and made me feel wanted. It was one of the primary reasons for me sticking with the group. They were funny, a bit dangerous and LIKED me. Hurray. Warm feelings. Little by little I grew to depend emotionally on them.

    MW is the most cherished member of the Brit alt-right. Woes' audience are, to be blunt, outcasts. Loners. Depressives. Like myself. He was spoke of as some genius thinker, but I found his oration skills to be VERY poor and his vids dull and meandering.

    (attachment: "Advice for the Broken: A youngman in the reactosphere trolled a friend of mine, and it resulted in me making this video for him. He is troubled, confused, frightened and anxious. … youtube.com)​

    Over Xmas, every day for 30 (or so?) days he interviewed somebody from the community. A few of these were Discord group members with small YT alt-right channels. They were so happy, and everybody was so happy for them. A sincere bond of friendship binds these lonely people.

    The state of my depression was so all-encompassing that I viewed their fascism with detachment, but I admit I had grown to pity and even like some of them. I didn't understand racial pride or national pride, but I understood depression, loneliness and alienation.

    The ones I truly disliked were the higher ups. The groomers. Those who lured people to these communities not to 'save' them, but to make up the numbers. The bullshit scare tactics. The nonsensical promises. Mark Collett is one of these people. I grew to despise him.

    The alt-right primarily organise on Discord servers. Hundreds of people. Many view Stormfront as 'Nazi LARPers' ruining the 'optics' of the movement. No, the alt-right plan and work in secret. Alt-right videos often aren't for the alt-right. They're to PROMOTE the alt-right.

    How do you get an invite to alt-right Discord servers? They deliberately target lonely, disenfranchised young men. They have strategies. 'Best Jordan Peterson video to red pill a normie?' was a three day discussion.

    Richard Spencer morbidly intrigued me because he seemed so grotesque, campy, ridiculous.. A bloated Crispin Glover trotting across the world stage and effeminately declaring himself the peak of western masculinity. WTF?

    (attachment: Richard Spencer sings Karaoke: Compilation [FU…] White supremacist Richard B. Spencer visits a Karaoke Bar. Songs sung: "Enjoy the silence" by Depeche Mode "A View to a Kill" by Duran Duran 25th June, 2017)​

    I'm a huge fan of campiness and the aesthetic of the diva, so I admit to having slightly enjoyed Richard Spencer at these times, but make no mistake, he is a profoundly irresponsible, immoral and manipulative man. I STRONGLY suspect he isn't a true believer of his cause.

    Yes, you picked up on the ingenious homoerotic subtext of the last few tweets. Well done. I am perhaps not the sort of person these folk would like in their ethnostate. Let's move on...
     
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,974
    re: Sketching the problem [3/3]

    And part two of the Twitter thread↗ from MsHappyDieHappy, including the truculent suicidality:

    Right now – yes, right now – there are separate online communities of hundreds of nerds plotting the absolute best way to get people to their cause. The overall number of active alt-right regulars numbers in the tens of thousands, though level of involvement varies wildly.

    Mark Collett's video on how to beat depression. Sedate, friendly and offering support, telling people if they would like to know more to read his book. The name of his book? THE FALL OF WESTERN MAN.

    (attachment: "How to beat depression: A frank discussion on depression and how beating depression isn't about medication, it's about making positive changes in your life. Crucially, beating depr… youtube.com)​

    One I have seen a lot lately.Varg Vikernes' cure for depression comes with soothing, relaxing music. Mostly awkward pseudo-science then he drops the eugenics bomb.

    (attachment: "The Key to Happiness: A video about how to become or remain happy in a world that is going down the drain. Based on 'About Tomorrow' from the Thulean Perspective blog ([link fragment]… youtube.com)​

    I was hesitant about posting these as I was worried about giving them attention or showing them to vulnerable people, but hopefully if you read this far you'll know this is all a scam. I wanted to show further examples of the far right specifically targeting depressed people.

    A really bad break up with a girlfriend a few years earlier had left me with a bitterness about future romantic pursuits, which they frequently tried to tap into in order to manipulate me. I was routinely told my ex was an evil feminist and that MGTOW was my ideal path.

    Hanging with the alt-right for hours everyday ultimately failed to influence my ideas on race, relationships or socialist policies (I voted Corbyn around this time), but through links to 'moderates' (!) Peterson and Shapiro my view of trans people was slowly and subtly altered.

    Many people who view trans people as freaks to be bullied in order to preserve the moral purity of society know their message is unpalatable to a lot of people, so the debate is insidiously framed as a free speech one in order to alter the narrative.

    This is again a method of 'normie priming'. There is a LOT of pretentious mind-maze pontificating about free speech, but beneath it is a firm root of hatred for people for how they look and behave. When I realised the way I framed the debate had been influenced I was scared.

    I'm REALLY sorry to hear people think I'm trying to drown out others' experiences with a white male bias. My average like for a tweet prior to this was 0 or 1. My social experience is very limited as I can count my friends on half a hand and have no close ones. I'll be quiet now.

    I am NOBODY. I hate myself. I agree with the criticism. I made this thread in the vain hope some young gamer guy looking up Peterson, Sargon, Styx, etc. might find it and then have their guard up. The gaming community is rife with rabbit holes for lonely young men to fall down.

    Jordan Peterson isn't alt-right, but there's a REASON at least hundreds of white nationalists are giving him a minimum of ten dollar donations PER MONTH. People in the alt-right communities openly tagged who they donated to as a point of pride. It's huge.

    No. I am NOBODY. I legit want to be dead soon. I just had to warn people, and I hope people who are smarter than I am and more articulate than I am can get to the answers of why this is happening and how to stop it because I see it as an existential nightmare on the RISE.

    Self-obsessed ASSHOLES such as Sargon and Warski (who the alt-right view as useful FUCKING morons) exploit this crisis for fame. I do not deserve or crave a platform. Take the information I give and spread it yourselves, PARTICULARLY to young men with autism, depression or ADHD.

    Young men with autism, depression or ADHD are DELIBERATELY targeted as ripe for 'priming', which is how this escaped far right-centric sites and took over the chan boards and finally mainstream sites such as YouTube. Before I'm gone I want this all known.

    This world is not for me, but before I leave I wanted to help others escape unnecessary, wasteful or needless suffering, whether it's neurodivergent prospective recruits to the alt-right or the many victims of the alt-right and their violent dream for the world.

    To reiterate the necessary disclaimer: The author remains alive; that last tweet in the thread bears particular meaning.
     

Share This Page