Home made energy converter.

Discussion in 'Architecture & Engineering' started by DaS Energy, Oct 29, 2012.

  1. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    2,826
    you would also call MIT researchers cranks?

    http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/infrared-photovoltaic-0621.html

     
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  3. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    That's all good, as it's obviously rooted in science. But if we go back to the diagram DasEnergy posted in the OP: there is a magic line between red and blue where fluid that was hot magically gets cold. I haven't been able to get an intelligent explanation of it, but he seems to think that the same ambient that adds heat will also remove it. That's a huge error which completely overturns his entire idea.

    Obviously, the heat source can be a solar collector and the cold source can be a pool or geothermal well, or some other source. But there have to be two energy sources supplied--a high energy source and a low energy source. Otherwise, nothing happens. You get a boat anchor.

    Most of the time we never have to describe engines this way since tekkies generally understand that energy can not be created. For example, we don't think of the ambient air as an energy supply to your car through the tailpipe. But we have to cast it this way for DasEnergy, because he's not up on his science. In other words, if you raise the temperature and pressure of the tailpipe to that if the combusting gas-air mixture, the engine will never operate. It runs because the high energy source (combusting gas-air) is so much greater than the lower energy source (ambient air at the tailpipe). DasEnergy seems to think he can harness heat from the ambient even though his high and low side energy sources are identical.

    Photovoltaics are a great source of renewable energy. If the cost of production could only come down, I think they would come into wider use. Hopefully this project you cited will eventually lead to a general price reduction. But right not it sounds rather expensive.

    I'm a great fan of geothermal energy, but it's not cheap either. One of the opportunities for renewable energy-minded folks is to explore how geothermal systems really work. Some of the best posts I've seen on this have been by billvon and BillyT who immediately recognize that the temperature gradients tend to be small, even zero (when air temp is hovering at or around ground temp). However given that ground temp is quite comfortable as an indoor temp, I do think this is an excellent way to heat and cool homes. That is, if you simply maintain ground temp inside the home, through direct heat exchange, during hot and cold seasons you've saved enormously on the non-renewable energy usage. Then, you can exploit other systems, such as this idea you've posted, to develop electricity for other uses, which should be much more cost efficient knowing that you don't have to spend any "expensive" energy on keeping the indoor temp comfortable.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
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  5. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Hardly!! That's a MILLION miles from what this crank, DasEnergy, is talking about.

    Simple question for you: Do you not understand that what you posted about is REAL technology and what he posts about is garbage??
     
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  7. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    A minor correction here: What you're calling geothermal is more accurately labeled "ground-source." True geothermal is sourced from the heat in the interior of the Earth and you find places like Iceland taking advantage of that. While ground-source energy is actually ground-stored solar energy from the sun.

    Indeed, it's a very effective and efficient means of providing both heat and cooling. Two wells are employed - one is source and the other is sink - and between them is a common heat pump. There are several thousand of them currently in use in the USA alone.
     
  8. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    17,455
    in refrigeration such a device is an orifice and evaporator.
    this converts the high pressure/ high temp fluid into a cold gas.
    the suction side of the compressor probably aids in this process.
     
  9. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Correct. That device is either an expansion valve or capillary tube.

    But the problem in DasEnergy's idea is that he never leaves the gas phase and expects to - somehow - dump the waste heat right back into the ambient air where he got it.

    Oh... and he's also a believer in over unity as well.
     
  10. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    17,455
    sounds like a dehumidifier to me.
    the ambient air in this case will slowly increase in temperature due to current losses in the motor, and that's assuming 100% heat transfer.
    i'm not sure of the efficiency of refrigeration cycles but electric motors are typically above 95% and always less than 100%.
     
  11. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    Sure. If it's in a confined area, the relative humidity would decrease as the temperature increases. (Although the actual (absolute) humidity would remain unchanged.)
     
  12. DaS Energy Registered Senior Member

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    223
    Hello Aqueous Id,

    Re ambient cooling. Take a CO2 fire extinguisher and squeeze the trigger, do not face the nozzel at yourself

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    or your balls will freeze off due to ambient cooling.

    Cheers Peter
     
  13. DaS Energy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    223
    Hello Read Only

    Your getting closer, hang in there almost home. Have you noticed there be hot winds and there be cold winds. Funny thing is cold wind is not hot wind thats turned to rain to get cold!
     
  14. DaS Energy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    223
    Hello leopold,

    "Einstein" the father of refrigeration does not have liquid passing through the restrictor plate, he used gas (Ammonia). Liquid came later when Kelvinator put in the compressor.

    Cheers Peter
     
  15. DaS Energy Registered Senior Member

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    223
    Hello billvon,

    Your waxing funny right! (Combustion engine) They are also more efficient than turbines.

    Cheers Peter
     
  16. DaS Energy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    223
    Hello leopold.

    Please look to OP again. Magical cooling occurs at blue and green line. Red is heat Blue is water. Note in green shaded area the words in black. expansion chamber. I beleive I have many many time stated (magical) cooling occurs at expansion chamber.

    Cheers Peter
     
  17. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152
    I think that's a very good comparison to your device. Here's the cycle:

    (1) Buy a fully charged extinguisher
    (2) Release it, cooling your bottle. Drink a cold beer.
    (3) The tank and empty bottle return to ambient temperature.
    (4) Go to (1)

    Your device:
    (1) Charge it with pressurized working fluid.
    (2) Let the material expand, cooling a bottle chilled by the expansion chamber. Drink a cold beer.
    (3) The expansion chamber and bottle return to ambient temp
    (4) Go to (1)
     
  18. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,152
    Einstein is certainly not the father of refrigeration. It was already in use before he patented his version.

    The only reason it works is because ammonia will automatically "compress itself" by hygroscopic absorption into water. This gets back to why you should prefer ammonia over CO2. That is, if you ever figure out how to put usable energy into your device, you will gain an advantage by using a pump instead of a compressor.

    We discussed this several pages ago, but you may not have understood it.
     
  19. DaS Energy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    223
    Hello Billvon.

    The reason for heating CO2 is obtain a pressure force. Its the TEMPERATURE that does the trick not BOILING WATER at below 100*C.

    "Not at all! You see, if you keep the pressure within the system below atmospheric pressure, you could run the system at any temperature at all. For example, if you want to make energy from an ambient temperature heat source, you just keep system pressure around 10mpa. Then the water boils at room temperature, pressure rises, and you can do work."

    Cheers Peter
     
  20. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152
    I don't think he's planning on using a compressor. It will work just like an air conditioner that's turned off.
     
  21. DaS Energy Registered Senior Member

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    223
    Hello Aqueous ID,

    I have been able to find Ice-Chests but not refrigeration before Einstein came along. Do you know of any examples that may still have the paperwork?

    "ammonia will automatically "compress itself" by hygroscopic absorption into water" This occuring in the bolier. Ammonia and Water in mix then leave the boiler and travel up a pipe, where the water(liquid) and Ammonia seperate. The hot water falls back into the boiler and the Ammonia gas passes on through the restrictor plate.

    The pump has nothing to do with the cooling. The "pump" only guides a liquid force to the hydro turbine, the hot CO2 providing the push force, no piston no runner. Cooling occurs in expansion chamber assisted by vacuum. CO2 is neither pumped into nor out of the expansion chamber.

    CO2 is hydrobolic. Its a gas with all the propperties of gas and liquid but is gas. It freezes when heated. Past +31.1*C no amount of compression will condense it.

    Nothing refrigeration has any real revelance unles using transcritical CO2. The a compressor, gas and liquid may be joined. Transcritical R774 (CO2) may also be engaged in heated operation.

    Cheers Peter
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  22. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,152
    Refrigeration - History

    You jumped from describing the ammonia cycle to CO2. So I have no idea how to interpret your statement "The pump has nothing to do with the cooling."

    I keep asking you to explain what you're proposing, and I still have no idea what it is.
    You mean you suck the air out of it before you charge your system with CO2. However, once you chill that first beer, it will no longer be a vacuum. It will be at equal pressure and temp with the inlet (red) side. So it will go from blue to red in a short time, and nothing else will happen.


    In that case your system won't do anything.

    None of this will matter since your box will be in equilibrium without any energy differential to change its state. In other words, it won't do anything.

    (between the typos, the choppy language, the wandering thoughts, and the lack of science, I'm having difficulty following you.)
    It's not clear to me what you are trying to say. Are you talking about spending energy to make your machine work? It needs you to spend energy to make it cycle. Without a cycle, it won't do anything. Conclusion: it has to spend energy.
     
  23. DaS Energy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    223
    Each paragraph. Carries a seperate reply.

    The simpliest I can put is if you heat a contained gas it will push, heated more and it will push harder.

    That marked as pressure in some things you see, can be taken as a form of energy. One step advancement above cave man was to heat boiling water a bit more, that made steam. What they do is take water and heat it, that makes steam, steam has a pressure, pressure is another form of force. The force is what is used to push something. So what they do is take cold water and heat it to steam, after the steam has exchanged all its force, they cool the steam so it returns to water, that is called a cycle. Another form of cycle is they take a cold gas and heat it, then when all its energy is used up they cool the gas down again, no liquid involved but still known as a hot cold cycle.

    Science comes from more learned sources than the back of Cornflake packets. However a good many have not yet grasped that nor expanded their reading material.

    Some even have experience with what they are talking about!
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012

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