# HD DVD returns and kicks Blu-ray to the gutter

Discussion in 'Computer Science & Culture' started by Festering Boil, Aug 6, 2009.

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1. ### StryderKeeper of "good" ideas.Valued Senior Member

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13,101
I have done and higher resolutions too. Of course it does require a fast internet connection to either get the files or stream them since they are quite large (6-7Gb at least)

The point is though that most of the Cable/Satellite providers have started to put the Films on Virtual servers that are linked to the client, so they can stream directly from a virtual server. No torrenting necessary or bandwidth decreases if it's straight from the ISP.

3. ### superstring01Moderator

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You're describing YOUR personal persepctive, which is valid to you. I'm talking marketing, and people buy into stupid marketing tricks like blue packaging, stupid spelling and cool sounding names. Deny it all you want, the name "BluRay" is far more marketable than the name "HDDVD". The two formats were basically the same (though BluRay's theoretical capacity limits appear to have outstripped HDDVD).

Your complaints about BluRay are applicable to HDDVD as well. You act stunned and appalled that an industry is milking something new for all its worth. Where have you been? Here's a thought: don't buy it. Save money. You won't look back on your deathbed and sigh at all you missed by opting out of consumerism.

As I pointed out, BluRay has already won. Nothing, except the next format will topple it (Syz is right: Something solid state). China won't pass the USA for 20 or 30 years in market share so whatever they do, while certainly valid, won't actually make a difference. Currently the USA, Europe and Japan already use BluRay and they account for upwards of 70% of the global market.

Even Betamax occupied a small niche until Sony stopped production at the turn of the millennium. HDDVD just might have that distinction, but consumer momentum is self perpetuating. The train, in this case, has left the station and it ain't coming back.

~String

5. ### phlogisticianBannedBanned

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I watch streamed and downloaded video from sources like BBC iPLayer, and 4OD on a 1080p, and it looks damned good.

7. ### phlogisticianBannedBanned

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Well, no, it's also my observation, that the 'Blu Ray' section at my local HMV is nothing more than an aisle end, and all the rest of the ground floor is regular DVDs. Blu Ray hasn't made the tiniest dent in the sales of DVD yet, and is ripe to be unhorsed by a cheaper technology.

I disagree. HD and DVD are established acronyms, it's an obvious and self explanatory conjunction. 'Blu Ray' could be a fucking fish.

HELLO! Did you read the OP? The NEW HD DVD system is aimed to undercut Blu Ray by a significant margin.

Well guess what? I'm not. Since Blu Ray is still in it's infancy, and I don't buy into it's market dominance or longevity at all, and I am happy with the quality I get from regular DVDs, and especially their price, Blu Ray and it's flaccid marketing team can go rethink their strategy. And take the DRM with them.

Nah. Let's revisit this in five years. Cost is a huge market force. If this new, cheaper HD DVD format delivers cheaper unit cost, Blu Ray is in trouble. I can wait until then for prices to fall to a reasonable level, however that happens and competition is GOOD, and I hope this new format wakes up the lazy, sloppy Blu Ray marketeers.

Nah, people like buying objects as gifts. There will still be a market for tangible, discrete objects for a while yet, and as Blu Ray hasn't taken off yet, it can easily be supplanted.

70% of the market, what % of that market buy Blu Ray? A small percentage I reckon, in fact, a quick Google, shows Blu Ray (last years figures, admittedly) at 12% of the market. I wonder what share Laser Discs managed, or Video 2000, before being dropped, and leaving gadget hunters with a pile of useless tech?

Hey, let's spin up some tunes on your Mini-Disc player, we've got all the latest stuff, ... from the 90's, ....

Last edited: Aug 13, 2009
8. ### X-Man2We're under no illusions.Registered Senior Member

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#1 What phlogistician said.

Blu-Ray, Who's that?

9. ### John99BannedBanned

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+1?

i said it before him, he is just copying.

i can give further examples:

Betamax=NO
VHS=YES

Laserdisc=NO
DVD=YES

BluRay=NO
HD-DVD=YES

See a pattern?

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11. ### phlogisticianBannedBanned

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It's a good move, they get the license to make Blu Ray players, the Chinese version of HD DVD becomes popular, and they Toshiba can make players which will play everything, to keep the early adopters of the failed Blu Ray format happy with their obsolete collection of discs.

12. ### superstring01Moderator

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12,110
I bet on momentum. BluRay already has enough. The movie's aren't that expensive. And you're issue with prices is more to do with demand and "newness" than anything else. I bought a Proscan DVD player (with a free copy of "The Matrix") that my local Circuit City sold in 1999 for over $200. As with all things, in time the prices come down. Competition between manufacturers is always, and inevitably, enough. I think this is more bitterness than anything, which is fine. I was pissy that Betamax lost too. Perhaps the fact that I work in retail, have managed at Target, Costco and Walmart, and currently work at the corporate level of a major US retailer gives me better depth of understanding these matters. You are underestimating the hurdles that HDDVD would have to overcome, especially when the biggest hurdle is based out of Bentonville, Arkansas. Consider, the production capacity that's already been devoted to BluRay. Corporations are single minded in their aversion to retooling, especially when what they are making is a "sure thing" (and it's a sure thing because, well, they say it is). Why risk something else when BluRay is--in fact--technically superior. All they have to do is keep doing what they are now, refuse to accept HDDVD, and the thing will die. Consider the fact that the world's largest retailer (by a factor of five) now sells BluRay players for less than$99.

Lastly, I can't help but think you seem to believe that the proponents of BluRay are living in some vacuum where they would miss out on all the hype at a resurrected HDDVD format. Like all corporations in such circumstances, the slightest hint of a resurgence of HDDVD will prompt the corporations (who have invested multi-billions of dollars into BluRay) to just cut the prices to the point where it will drive re-upstart HDDVD out of business for good (and, this would no doubt, be good for us). People still have a bad taste in their mouth over buying the now defunct HDDVD's and players. The market, for nothing more than an eye on profits, tends to snuff out alternative formats very quickly.

But, in twelve months and in a few years, we can revisit this point again at which time I'll say, "Told ya' so."

~String

Last edited: Aug 15, 2009
13. ### DigmasterRegistered Member

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Personally, I hope bluray wins. It technologically superior and I'm glad to have some innovation. I might even end up getting a player for my TV.

Also, anyone have the size bluray disks can store? I heard it was extreamly large.

14. ### phlogisticianBannedBanned

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12% market share is pretty flaccid. It could disappear, and nobody would notice.

Around twice the cost of a regular DVD, if available.

Clearly there isn't much demand. Sales are elastic, hence the price/crappy market penetration percentage.

And Blu Ray has competition from the cheaper, and satisfactory DVD format. DVD has more titles, is cheaper, and is not that inferior in quality to Blu Ray, and most people clearly aren't willing to shell out the extra at the moment.

I'm not bitter, I'm just not buying into the hype.

I worked in retail for three years selling TV's Videos HiFis and computers myself. I don't think you have a better understanding, you've just bought into the hype.

I don't think the proponents of the Chinese HD DVD system give a rat's what goes on in Arkansas. If they tool up and mass produce their system, the only thing stopping it crushing Blu Ray, will be market protectionism, license restrictions, region encoding, and other fake shit used to limit consumer choice.

Consider a billion Chinese customers. Then all of India too. Game over, Blu Ray.

12% of market share makes it a damp squib, not a 'sure thing'.

Betamax was technically superior to VHS. What's your point? Customers don't give a rats ass about the numbers, the majority want bang for buck, and it's weighted towards the buck.

They can't stop China from developing HD DVD, and they tool up to serve a market of one billion customers, and then India, they can easily take over that measly 12% share Blu Ray has.

The only way Blu Ray looks to succeed, is if regular DVD production ceases, and again, that would be fake bullshit, limiting consumer choice.

Last edited: Aug 15, 2009
15. ### superstring01Moderator

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Can you back that up? The entire industry is directed at a total conversion to high-def within the next five years. While high def can be supplied through HDDVD, as I poitned out, it would take considerable re-investment to alter the course of history right now.

Nothing takes off at 100%.

You are correct. In its infancy, DVD's had much the same history. Just like high def TV's at the beginning, the technology is still too expensive. It'll take time. Two more years for it to occupy a profitable market share. This is usually the case for most new products.

What was the P&L of your local establishment? How much capital did your retailer invest in DVD's and what percentage of sales were they? If you don't know those things, then you aren't explosed to the larger factors that influece what is, and what is not, sold. Sure, it's about demand, but equally it's about corporate buy-in and the "buy" is already in on the format.

Actually, I do. For starters, as part of my job in retail, I sit on a merchandising committee that reviews consumer buying trends, styles and attitude, so I'm actually quite informed, and obviously by several orders of magnitude, more so that you. Second off, where did I ever say that I bought into the trend? Sure, I'm a consumer, but everything is tempered by price and quality. Your argument has been "doubt based" and "skepticism based", which is valid when it comes to personal buying needs, but is ultimately ineffective when predicting macro-economic trends, especially those that have to do with technology.

Walmart is the largest buyer of consumer goods in China and the largest sell of those goods on Earth. They are deeply in bed with the Chinese government and have considerable pull on what happens in the market.

Partially correct. Each factor you named is certainly important, but you're acting like HDDVD wouldn't come along and do the same thing and/or that BluRay would just win, again, on its own merits. Have you actually explored the technical capacity of the two?

Why India too? Do you have any proof that India is in on this game too and is committed, as a nation, to a secondary or tertiary format? Or is this just more emotional argument to make your point seem more valid?

Overall, you've posted a perfect example of totally uninformed statements. One: It assumes that all of those consumers would even want the HDDVD formant, Two: it assumes that BluRay won't just cut its prices and costs to be more competitive, Three: it leaves out the fact that that less than 10% of those populations have the disposable income to even buy a player. While that is about 230 million people, it's still not really enough to make the format a winner, especially since the jury is, essentially in, for places like Tesco, Carrefour, Walmart and Target who service most of the western world.

Now who's buying into hype? Even better that it's your own manufactured hype. Also: most BluRays are made in China, so you'd already be buying something from them anyway.

Apparently you're a part of that group too, since you prefer HDDVD to BluRay. So, quality it would appear, isn't of maximum importance to you either.

Correct. Also, "China" is not a single industry and from your prose, you seem to think that all of China would tooling up--as if for war--which is totally false. There are upstarts within China that are making valid attempts to revive the format, while the rest of China (like the rest of the world, India too!) continues to be totally committed to the current BluRay format.. What the already-committed industry can do is refuse to allow them to elbow in. You, being as familiar with the industry as I am, do know that the greatest obsticle to overcome in selling any product is finding a distribution network. . . don't you? Walmart and Carrefour are the largest retailers in the western world (and in China and Japan to boot), and they have already thrown their weight behind BluRay. HDDVD needs to elbow into a market with no financial ability to distribute their product.

I mean, sure, you can go to China to get a gray market product if you want, but then what good would it do you when you would struggle to get it to work in the US (you'd have to change the outlet), and then you'd have to find actual media. Distributors in the west now deliver all their media formats in both DVD (it's still a legacy format) and BluRay. Do you really see distributors and suppliers like Blockbuster, Walmart, Carrefour and Tesco having to buy a third format? If you do, then, well, it's proof that you have no knowledge of how the industry actually works.

China's and India's "middle class" is about 450 million people. Their middle class is still significantly lower in income than anything in the west. The class with disposable income is, as I pointed out, really quite small and frugal; generally not investing in ether BluRay or HDDVD on account of a stronger sense of value and income prioritization (i.e. food).

Uh, wake up call: BlueRay has already won. HDDVD players and disks are no longer sold anywhere in the free world (beyond re-sellers who market niche products and previously own merchandise). Look it up. What you're looking for is the market equivilent of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. And it's nice to hope for such things, but statements like "The only way BluRay looks to succeed..." is just silly. BluRay has already won. The only thing that is preventing it from having greater market share is 1) a down economy and 2) consumer buy-in (which usually lasts 5 to 7 years).

~String

Last edited: Aug 15, 2009
16. ### phlogisticianBannedBanned

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A quick google, admittedly last years figures, but it's not good % for Blu Ray;

http://www.betanews.com/article/Bluray-market-share-creeps-up-or-down-to-8-percent/1222372337

<edit> more recent figures are worse if we compare the Top 20 sales (and that favours Blu Ray, as it lacks a back catalogue) </edit>

http://www.blu-raystats.com/NewsLog...are-back-to-10-for-the-week-ending-march-8th/

Like I said, the only way Blu Ray is going to prevail, is if regular DVD production is halted. Consumers are NOT choosing Blu Ray over DVD. IF this Chinese system can get into production in the next couple of years, and be cheaper, Blu Ray will need to lessen it's price AND sort out the tacky plastic boxes.

It's had three years. People clearly aren't keen to drop DVD in favour of it.

There is nothing wrong with DVD. Consumers don't want Blu Ray. If a product becomes available cheaper, that is backwardly compatible it will easily supplant the weak market share Blu Ray has.

I didn't say I sold DVDs, did I?

Seems that the public, you know, the people with the money, don't share your opinions, Mr Up His Own Arse. I'll clue you in. Sales are elastic. I said it earlier, but you clearly didn't grasp it. 'Elastic' means that they roughly conform to a rectangular hyperbola, when plotted as cost/volume. IE, the cheaper shit is, the more it sells. Blu Ray is not selling in volume, because it's too expensive. DVD is keeping it's market, because it's cheap. If a cheaper system HD comes along, Blu Ray will have to lower it's prices, or fail. If they are unwilling to lower their prices now to take market share from DVD, they are exposing themselves to being surpassed by the new format selling to the 88% of consumers who have not switched yet. It's simple, why don't you grasp it?

The technical capacity isn't the thing that's going to convert the remaining 88% of the market, is it, so why do you bring it up?

Did you read the article linked in the OP? Where is Asia?

I actually posted some numbers, you are just making a qualitative argument.

Nope. I said people purchase on price. That's why they are still buying DVDs in far larger volume. Clearly the format, better or worse isn't the thing driving the market. Consumers don't care about the format, Blu Ray or DVD, they want bang for buck. With your alleged expertise, you should understand that.

Again, I didn't say that. I said;

" I can wait until then for prices to fall to a reasonable level, however that happens and competition is GOOD, and I hope this new format wakes up the lazy, sloppy Blu Ray marketeers."

Which means I recognised that competition from a new format could see Blu Ray drop it's prices to compete. Have trouble with comprehension?

I presume they know their market as well as you profess to know yours, ...

If it's cheaper, it's serious competition.

Blu Ray is being outsold by the cheaper regular DVD format in those very outlets.

Not true. I'm still happy with DVD. Bang for buck it ticks all the boxes. Only if HD DVD were comparable so it was a no brainer would I switch to it. I have no preference over format or technology. Here, I am a consumer.

12% market share is 'winning'?

Well, that's a dishonest dividing line considering it's possibly going to resurface in China, isn't it?

It's been three years, you telling me Blu Ray sales are going to quadruple, and equal DVD sales in the next 2-5 years? That 12% figures wavers, btw, there isn't a solid increasing trend. I was correct when I said the only way Blu Ray will supplant DVD sales is if consumer choice is restricted. You have no statistics to prove otherwise, just conjecture.

17. ### John99BannedBanned

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seems like were talking about two or three seperate issues here. first i think that whatever technology Sony is behind would be the better one. this had been true for quite awhile now. sony is behind blu ray and from a technological standpoint it is better. supposedly by about10-15gb of data perd disc side, does not men HD-DVD is bad though but Blu Ray has the edge.

NOW does anyone know how this transfers into bit rates or compression? that is the biggest issue here. Tbh, i havent kept up with the technology wnough, we know that DVD is just mpeg2. so i relly cant say but i am willing to bet that there is probably no difference BUT like i said i really dont know for sure.

now we get to the name. HD-DVD is better and whoever got there first certainly chose THAT name.

18. ### superstring01Moderator

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How are you so confused by this? I'm not debating with you about DVD Vs. BluRay. There's no debate: DVD is the dominant format. It will be (as I said) for a number of years. I'm debating with you about BluRay Vs. HDDVD. As I pointed out, and which you seem to be forgetting, DVD is the legacy format. DVD, itself, experienced slow growth until after 2000. It didn't become the "dominant" format until Walmart and Target BOTH stated that they'd totally phase out VHS by 2005.

The point I'm making is that BluRay currently has 100% of the High Def format. HDDVD has none. It will not elbow into that format because of the industrial momentum that has catapulted BluRay into the lead.

Again, you're confusing the two issues. There's the legacy format and the new format. New formats generally take a while to catch on. In this case, during a very down economy, it is believed that BluRay will take another two years to being seeing a ROI. The same happened with DVD Vs. VHS.

Who said there was? I own several of them myself. I admittedly have a HDTV and BluRay player (the former bought for under $300 at an auction and the latter bought as a reman from a seller on eBay for under$100) and my boyfriend and I just watched Season 1 of Dexter on DVD (which we own) and we were impressed by just how great it looked on the new TV. But, there are some noticeable differences, especially in stereo and picture quality. BluRay is just insane in it's vividness. DVD, while great, is... well, it's not BluRay. During this economic slump, DVD for most people works just fine.

All of them? Every single one?

Actually, consumers do want BluRay, they just aren't prepared to fork out the bucks. I've yet to meet a buyer who said, "Shucks, I don't want better stuff." Just, most of them are now forced to recognize the worth of their dollars.

Again, this introduction parallels the shift from VHS to DVD. The only thing slowing it down now is a bad economy. Moreover, DVD's were introduced on a massive scale back in '98 and didn't dominate totally until around 2003. That's five years. Major retailers didn't pull VHS until 2005. BluRay will move slower (people not only have to upgrade the player but their TV's too: that's a big investment), but that same investment would be required for HDDVD as well. Since, in either case, an upgrade would be necessary, the smart money is on BluRay.

Doubtful. As I pointed out, which point you ignored, the distribution and production of BluRay has already been set. Markets are loath to make such adjustments, especially when the adjustment will be, basically, for the exact same thing (an HD disk for an HD disk). If, and this is a big "if", HDDVD experienced a mild restart, the industry would snuff it out by way of a price cut and saturation.

No, but you implied an understanding of the market forces behind product supply by your statement. It was misleading and very incorrect.

My opinion? My opinion is that BluRay has won. That's all that I stated. You, Philogistician, are the one who has confused a dominance of a legacy format like DVD for a debate between new formats. It's really rather silly, actually.

I've stated my opinion already: DVD will continue to be the dominant format for two to five more years. The governmental shift away from the old signal formats, in both the USA and Europe, will force most people to upgrade to High Def within that time frame. Prices on those TVs will continue to drop. Even after a total upgrade DVD's will still be relevant for another decade since all BluRay players are backwards compatible. During this time, the prices on BluRay players will continue to drop (you can find them, already, for under a hundred dollars USA) which will pull more people into that format.

Did I not already say this? BluRay is the new format. It won't occupy a significant market share for another few years.

I'm sorry, were you debating HDDVD's possible resurgence or DVD's relevance? As I stated, I'm not arguing about DVD. It's the legacy format and will continue to dominate. The margins that BluRay occupy will only continue to rise in the years to come because of regulations in the broadcast industries that have forced them to upgrade to HD formats. BluRay will follow suit.

Yeah. I said this like six times. It's exactly what they would do to snuff out any upstart.

Me? I grasp it. In fact, what I don't understand is how you've confused a debate about HD formats for a debate between a legacy and HD format. That's just weird. I mean, it's a frakking entertainment format. More to the point, it would appear that you, in your haste, have confused the debate between HDDVD and BluRay and somehow included (out of desperation to seem relevant?) DVD which is a total non sequitur. But sure, bring it up. I've already stated that it will be some years before BluRay becomes totally dominant.

Because you said, "Betamax was technically superior to VHS. What's your point? Customers don't give a rats ass about the numbers, the majority want bang for buck, and it's weighted towards the buck." With distain.

And before that you said, "So I'll buy a Chinese made HD DVD player."

And I pointed out that quality must not mean anything to you, because BluRay is actually technically superior having greater end capacity of storage. You seemed not to care about the end quality, only about the fact that the name bothered you and the silly blue packaging. Which is odd, because HDDVD's were just as expensive and the players, before being pulled from the market, were just as expensive.

Really? That's your argument? Because India is next door to China it will do whatever China does, and buy into whatever comes from that economy. You lumped them together in order to add weight to your argument. It's a common debate tactic. People often times use it when they say something about someone they don't like, "Well, Suzy is a jerk, and everybody I know says so!" See: it wasn't that the person complaining was upset about Suzy, she also needed to include other people to make her argument relevant.

You did the same thing. Fact is, India is another non sequitur, but you included its population (because it's so big) because it made you look smart (see TWO BILLION PEOPLE!) as if Indians with disposable income would somehow jump on a bandwagon that you've totally contrived. Why not Vietnam them? Or Japan? Or Indonesia? Shit, you should have just said EVERYBODY in Asia and made it about 3 billion people!

Duh. They especially purchase on price during a down economy, which means that any upgrade, if and when, will not happen too quickly.

But they'll buy this totally hypothetical format, for which you've argued quite passionately, which doesn't even exist in production yet, which already failed, even against competitive odds of a dominant format that already in production?

Right.

Actually, they do. Consumer trends tend to veer towards the newest and the best. People instinctively want the best. It's human nature. Price, usually slows them down. Prices continue to drop on BluRays. Eventually, they'll be within striking range of most middle class consumers. That's how the market works.

It happened with GPS locators and remote locks in cars (originally available luxury models). It happened with cell phone technology. It is currently happening with television technology.

You mean, the point that I made like fifteen times in this thread?

No. Well, I mean, I didn't confuse a simple debate about HDDVD and BluRay with DVD, so I guess I might be missing something.

But I'm listening.

Indeed, and I mentioned that any upstart in the HDDVD world would simply cause BluRay to cut costs to drive it out of business. You were saying something earlier about "comprehension", so how did you miss this point?

You're really still confusing the whole "legacy" thing, aren't you?

Your statement here is in response to my statement that you'd prefer HDDVD from China to BluRay. We weren't talking DVD. Besides, your statement about prefering "HDDVD" is an absolute statement and disregards price or quality. And in this case, BluRay is actually better quality. Comparing DVD quality to BluRay is pointless. BluRay (and HDDVD) are better.

The upgrade to HDDVD and/or BluRay is the debate. You said you'd buy a HDDVD from China. This seems a political choice rather than a choice based on price or quality. It may well be, but the fact is, you won't have that choice. As I said, HDDVD is dead. Permanently.

Are you really that confused?

Philogistician, I not debating the slow move from DVD to BluRay. You and I were discussing the "format war" between BluRay and HDDVD? Why is this so confusing? To this point, I said that BluRay had won (against HDDVD). That much was settled (well, not with you it wasn't). There is no "war" between DVD and BluRay since all makers now make both. In fact, the makers of DVD all hope you upgrade to the new format. DVD sales are flat and the market really isn't going anywhere. It's through BluRay that the makers of DVDs and DVD players will begin to see increased returns.

In the world of marketing one does not speak of "possibilities". One talks about certainties. It's a certainty that BluRay has won against HDDVD and that the legacy DVD format will slowly be phased out during the next decade. It's a certainty because the non-committed parties (who sat out the format war in order to save money) have now all invested their precious dollars into BluRay, and that bell cannot be un-rung. An upstart, who offers nothing but the same quality but at a lower price will only drive the market to (a) elbow them out by suffocation (no distribution and/or investment dollars) (b) buy them out directly (and then allow the format to die) or (c) undercut them by cutting prices temporarily until they die, then raising them again (or leaving them cut, who knows).

It's precisely what happened to VHS. Or don't you remember?

Duh. Your choices are restricted. The market cannot survive with a hundred formats. For example, you we cannot have choices between 5:3, 16:9; 4:3 or 7:4 aspect ratios. The system couldn't handle it. TV and Movie studios couldn't handle the production costs of all four. The same is true of High Def disk production. It would be one thing if we were debating about substantial differences in quality, but we aren't.

What we have here is a, essentially, a price centered debate. The interesting thing is, even if HDDVD re-surged, the prices would be the same because the capital investment that would be needed to bring it back would be so tremendous that it would, essentially pad the costs to the net effect of making it the same (or more) in price as BluRay.

Everything seems cheap on the small scale. Try to get a product into production and distributed throughout the world, and the prices necessarily go up to accommodate those costs.

You mean, beyond the "statistics" that BluRay already accounts for 100% of all high def formats sold? That it is the ONLY high def format in production, distribution and sales throughout the world? NO. I guess I've got nothing.

~String

Last edited: Aug 16, 2009
19. ### phlogisticianBannedBanned

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String, you clearly do not grasp the simple economics of the potential resurgence of HD DVD.

If and when it is marketed, it only has to take 10 to 12% of the existing DVD market share, to equal Blu Ray, and give Blue Ray some serious competition. Blu Ray will have to lower it's prices, because this new format is aimed at being cheaper, because of a large, and controlled market. In the meantime, while HD DVD is development, Blu Ray should be attempting to increase their market share, because if they became dominant (more than 50% of the market) it would pretty much assure the longevity of the product. While they are wavering at 10 to 12% vs DVD, they are in a precarious position, so the debate really is Blu Ray vs DVD, until HD DVD is available.

Oh, and on your last point, Blu Ray is not the only way high definition is sold. Sky offer HD ppv.

20. ### superstring01Moderator

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Clearly, since you've backed up your claims so well.

Clearly you need the above paragraph to seem like you know what you're talking about. As I pointed out, my entire field is retail and my experience in that field has given me insight into this issue that you've missed. You've yet to respond to any of my points about the distribution costs that are already set, the contracts that cannot be broken without major lawsuits, etcetera etcetera.

I while I know you believe (and at this point are so invested in this debate that you cannot actually back down from) what you say, but market forces that you seem totally unawares of would say differently. You've yet to address the distribution costs, the re-committment costs on the part of marketers, and the costs that have now been totally invested in BluRay that already cut so far into the bottom line that they cannot be re-alocated and would leave scant else for investing in HDDVD. You keep making the debate about your points, but have failed to address any of mine. I mean, do you really know anything about how these things are marketed, the back-room deals that bring them to shelves?

Doubtful

Great, PPV is offered in High Def everywhere. Leave it to you to insert another non-sequitur. We were talking disks, Philo... not PPV.

~String

21. ### John99BannedBanned

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obviously they are going to work together, there is probably some minor competition but i would say, afa Japan is concerend Sony, most likely, has the most input. once they decide on a standard all the companies use that technology. that is what i think

.

22. ### AsguardKiss my dark sideValued Senior Member

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HDDVD was dead the second Blue ray was put into playstation 3. Once that happened you had a whole section of the market basically getting there blueray players for free (because they bought it as a game console not a DVD player)

23. ### phlogisticianBannedBanned

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Au contraire, maybe you missed it, but I did say 'perhaps they know their market as well as you profess to know yours.'

So I doubt that they would consider such an enterprise, unless the numbers looked favourable. Content could be a problem, if Studios get strongarmed into not licensing movies to this new format by the status quo, but like I have said all along, that would be limited consumer choice, and not market forces making the decisions.

What don't you grasp about this, the Chinese are perhaps going to develop this format, and bear the brunt of that cost. Once they are tooled up, all they have to do is offer players and HD DVDs with a region code for Europe, USA, wherever there is a market. Distribution costs is a fleet of containers, same way they ship EVERYTHING, marketing is no different or more costly that the thousands of other lines stores add to their portfolio every year.

Do you not read what I write, I said the only way Blu Ray will become dominant, is if consumer choice is limited by DVD production being ceased. While there is clearly a strong, and undiminishing market for DVD, why would that happen, if it wasn't for some strong arming? Of course I am aware of industrial motives NOT serving the customer. They are in business to make money, not please us.

I am talking about distribution of media. I don't give a shit how you feel you need to ringfence the debate to try and make your points valid. It's a broad marketplace, so it needs to be a broad debate. You are trying to corral this into a HD DVD vs Blue Ray two horse race, well it isn't. Blu Ray hasn't won anything until it has more than 50% market share. While it is merely a niche product, it can be easily supplanted. HD DVD is just one contender for that.