Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by SaphireKosmos, Jun 20, 2007.
trek wins by far...
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That's because you don't understand physics very well. The Covenant shielding would laugh at the pathetic ST shielding buttfucked by kiloton KE impacts. But then again, you could be one of those Creationist types of people who believes that his universe is invincible against all the opposition.
Forerunners, Covenant, Flood, and Humans are some of the key variables in this fight. There is always the possibility of some of the variables betraying one another and maybe become turncoats but if it is just a battle of between Star Trek and Halo, it maybe evenly matched.
Then again the Precursors are more advanced than the Forerunners so Halo has a chance of winning
I thought the precursors went extinct? But then I didn't read the books. I only played the games and that is 'bout it. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
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I'm actually an atheist.
Whatever makes you sleep ricrery. You have some serious anger management problems. And I mean serious. You get worked up over fiction, I don't know if that's funny, but it sure as hell is sad.
I thought you are Jewish, because I remember you saying you are Jewish.....
I am Jewish by upbringing, but in reality I'm not really very religious. It's kinda iffy.
I know I'm reviving a dead thread. But new information constitutes a new look.
Let's just limit it to two factions, for now. Specifically, the main factions of each universe.
For those of you who do care about this, I went into lengthy research into the offensive and defensive capabilities of the 2552 UNSC, and the ST:TNG United Federation of Planets. Here is what I've discovered.
UNSC ships are comparable in speed, better armored, and have more powerful weapons than the Federation. This is proven with a comparison using canon sources on both subjects.
ST:ICS states that Photon Torpedoes have a firepower of 64.53 megatons, A.K.A. 2.7 x 10^17 Joules. That's 22% more powerful than the Tsar Bomb.
Halopedia states that UNSC MAC guns have an equivalent firepower of 4.3 x 10^21 Joules. That's over 20 thousand times more powerful than Tsar Bomb.
Weapons Advantage = UNSC
Memory Alpha (The Star Trek Wiki) states that at Warp 9, a ship can travel 0.032 light years in in roughly twenty minutes.
20 minutes = 1/3 of an hour.
.032 x 3 = .096
.096 x 24 = 2.304 lightyears a day.
Halopedia, however, says that "Human Slipspace velocities...carry a ship at an unimaginable speed of approximately 2.625 light years per day."
Speed advantage = None
In the ST:TNG episode "Booby Trap," it is demonstrated that a weapon carrying "four hundred gigawatts of particle energy" can knock down a Galaxy Class Ship's shields.
Now, 1 gigawatt is equivalent to 0.0008604206500972474 megatons.
If we multiply this number by 400, we get 0.34416826.
So that means you only need .4 Megatons of explosive energy to bring down a Galaxy Class' shields.
However, UNSC Ships are WAY hardier, and don't need shields. According to Halopedia, "The closest weapon that the UNSC has that is anywhere near as powerful as the plasma turret is the Magnetic Accelerator Cannon." We've already established that a MAC is over 20 thousand times more powerful than the Tsar bomb, and by this statement, the plasma turret's plasma torpedoes are comparable in destructive power.
Given this information, let's look at Halo: Combat Evolved. In the cutscene at the end of Mission 1: The Pillar of Autumn, the ship Pillar of Autumn was seen surviving not one, but three glancing blows from Covenant Plasma Torpedoes. Even after that, the Autumn was still able to crash land on Installation 04 in one piece.
This proves that, while we don't know what kind of destructive power the ships of the UNSC can handle, it is certainly a MUCH larger number than .4 megatons.
Armor advantage = UNSC.
Overall, the UNSC would mop the floor with the Federation in a straight up fight.
All your information is old. Really old.
Man oh man are you months late to this debate.
There is no ST: ICS and even if it were, they're not even considered canon half the time--and when they are, they're sub-canon.
Unfortunately, we see that in Halo Reach, they have a yield comparable to the US MOAB, which is 10 tons.
Weapons Advantage = UNSC
No, it goes to the Halo side. Warp 9.975 cannot be obtained for more than twelve hours before the ship has to drop out of warp.
That's not Booby Trap, that's The Survivors.
And that same weapon turned an entire planet into a dustball. You can't do that in three days at its rate of fire. Not to mention that's much lower than the 500 gigajoule NX phase cannons that they fire in pairs on Enterprise. Take note that a Defiant class ship absolutely raped an NX in battle--even direct hits to its unshielded hull didn't even scratch the paint job.
Don't need shields? Let's try that again; they can't generate shields that large. Every admiral on Halo Earth would put out to a hobo with twelve different forms of STDs for the ability to create energy shields.
Which is odd that they're losing the war then, given that the Covenant are said to not to be able to literally glass a world in Halo Reach.
Which is why 30 megaton mines spread over a small area of space will take out shielded Covenant warships in Ghost of Onyx.
Tell me, what sort of heat can their armor take?
Hardly. We've seen actual firing of the MAC closer to ton ranges and we're told in Halo Reach that nukes are ship killers. Archer missiles are high chemical weapons--so unless their warheads are the size of most busses, they're not going to be doinbg anything close to a MOAB's firepower. In other words, we're probably looking at weapons in the sub-ton range. Hell, even the MACs in Halo 3 didn't show anything resembling megaton range (ie, otherwise both Chief and the Arbiter would be smears on the ground).
To be honest, I'd put money on the NX Enterprise before I even look at the Pillar of Autumn. At least their standard spatial torpedo is 250 tons--and their upgraded antimatter warheads are supposed to be even stronger.
I remember reading it from somewhere...I might be getting titles confused from the SW:ICS back when I was debating that.
Which cutscene was that?
My mistake. Episodes got mixed up in my notes.
Where's the source that says NX's phase cannons are 500 GJ?
Based on my research, they probably wouldn't need shields against phasers and proton torpedoes.
The games are considered more Canon than the books.
Unknown, however, Halopedia states that Titanium-A is "specially strengthened at the molecular level...with a high tolerance to heat." By the same source, Titanium-A is made from Titanium-50.
Call me a fanboy, but I'll take a UNSC ship over a Federation ship any day of the week. They seem safer from both boarders and malfunction (How many ships had destabilised warp cores and such over the millenia?) and they're more aesthetically pleasing to me.
Ahhhh ok, you leave out the biggest gun in field. The halo array can destroy all higher lifeforms in the entire milky way galaxy in one shot.
Also, UNSC more aesthetically pleasing? Thats like saying a shoe box is better looking than a porsche.
Sadly the covenant would also destroy starfleet. The shields on their ships far exceed anything in the ST universe (i.e. they take shots from a MAC gun no problem).
If the forerunners were around this not be a discussion.
The humans in Halo would lose to ST, the other races would take down the federation. However, pre-earth humans in halo would be able to take on ST. (cryptum) I've also never seen them talk much about anti-virus stuff in ST. Cortana would do a number on any computer system that she could her hands on. Basically taking over the ST ship and beaming them all into space with their own systems Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Please note I don't mind Trek tech books--I actually enjoy them and I consider them fairly accurate since it worked as the blueprint for most of the series--but keep in mind that most of the writers wanted to keep the ships and fleet abilities of the series as vague as possible so they could do whatever they wanted.
When the Keyship is launching. We see Swordships or whatever they're called bomb the ship first, then we see three frigates open fire with their MACs. Please keep in mind that they considered it a high possibility that the keyship was going to activate all the rings--so even if their weapons killed everything on Africa, it'd still be better than the alternative. Just about anything would be.
Not a problem.
Silent Enemy, when they were introduced. There have been one or two contradictions later--but the only one that I clearly remember is where he was talking to an alien, so he may have been lying--and even then I think it was only a few hundred megajoules below.
Your research is a wee bit flawed I fear.
Data pad 10 actually:
That really doesn't tell me much.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Honestly dude, I think UNSC ships look like flying bricks. The only decent looking ones are the frigates--the others are just ugly. Ships like the Sovereign class, Defiant class, Prometheus class, Nova, Nebula, Akira, and so forth is really where it's at.
That really only happened to the Enterprise D--and to be fair that was their most advanced ship at the time. Later, especially in DS9, we'd see a great deal less sensitivity in the warp cores. Even in the Dominion War, ships would literally be having large sections of their ships being vaporized off and they'd still be kicking.
DS9 tech manual fleshes photon torps out at 690 gigatons actually, but the manuals are not full canon anyway.
66 kilotons max for a standard ships MAC.
And the UNSC cannot even fire a projectile fast enough to catch a fed ship at a fraction of its impulse speed in the first place.
You're gonna have to be more specific. I never played ODST (Hearing bad reviews about it, and all) and I'm having trouble finding it on youtube.
Well then, we're gonna have to do this based on logic. So tell me, why would the Federation abandon an older model phase cannon for a newer model phaser array, when the phase cannon is more powerful? Aesthetics, likely, if the phase cannon really held that much power. But if it was actually obsolete, and a phaser really is stronger, then why can't a TNG Federation phaser one shot the Enterprise-D's shields, since they can't deflect 400 GW of particle energy? By the numbers, any TNG Fed ship should easily be able to destroy a GCS. And numbers do not lie.
My conclusion: Either Starfleet is full of dumbasses that favor more "Artsy" ships then actual combat-effective ships, or the 500 GJ statement was a slip of the tongue.
That's why I have a problem with them. They're not designed for war, as a warship should be. They're designed to be artistically appealing, not in any way practical. I can't see any logic behind a Fed ship's design.
But then, that's a matter of opinion.
There's still been too many malfunctions on Fed ships for my liking.
Also, I think you'd find this article interesting, while we're on the subject.
Yeah, but in this case, at least the shoe box doesn't explode at the slightest breeze like the porsche does. Seriously, there have been enough fatal mechanical malfunctions on board UFP ships enough times to tell me never to ride in one.
Sauce? (Source, for you non-internet savvy people)
Oh, I'm sure a projectile travelling at 40% the speed of light is far too slow to catch any federation ship. [/sarcasm]
Apologies, it was Halo 3. Just before they launch the keyship.
Except the problem with that is that we saw in A Mirror Darkly that a Constitution class starship took several phase cannon shots to the hull--with no apparent damage. It didn't even scratch the paint. We also saw that in ST XI that even a mining ship from TNG era was able to destroy over a dozen ships. That's not mentioning that in DS9 we see old Miranda class ships getting taken out with one or two shots.
That's a rather biased conclusion. Especially because you can't vaporize all water and oceans on a Class M world within 3 days--as the alien ship with 400 GWs of energy did.
...Have you watched Star Trek? They're not supposed to be warships. They're explorers.
Not only is that full of malicious lies, but even what's half true isn't even based in reality. The Yamato wasn't destroyed because of a systems failure (though that's what the crew initially feared), but because an alien program had rewritten the ship's software and caused the ship's antimatter containment to fail.
Such as? No really, point to some overly dangerous design flaw in Star Trek and not just something caused by some sort of strange anomaly?
Their standard moving speed is .25c the speed of light and it was mentioned in Voyager that they could reach .8c. So yes, if they wanted to, a Starship could easily outmanuver a MAC given it has no means of guiding itself towards a target. They could also just shoot it down seeing as it has no shielding.
Halo: The Fall of Reach, page 108
Halo: The Fall of Reach (2010 edition), page 130
270 terajoules = 65 and a bit kilotons but i gave you 66kilotons cos i iz nice.
1. Sorry to burst your bubble but the "Super" Magnetic Accelerator Cannon only fires its 3000-ton ferric-tungsten round at 12,000 kilometers per second,
Halo: The Fall of Reach, page 320
2. The connie in TMP traveled at 50% of c at full impulse and ships in the TNG era and onwards like voyager could reach upto 80% of c at impulse.
Ah, I see.
But note, those were mostly frigates in that cutscene. I know, what's your point?
This is conjecture, but it's supported by a lot of evidence in the Halo series.
Although never explicitly elaborated upon, there may be many more different sizes of MAC weaponry based on the size of possible mounts. For example, one might extrapolate that a frigate would mount a smaller, less powerful cannon than a supercarrier or a Marathon-class Cruiser, if only for power management issues.
Conceivably, a 'large' ship could mount many 'small' MACs. However, the lack of such occurrences might suggest that the power of a MAC, once the mass and volume of all attendant components (i.e. capacitors) are accounted for, does not scale linearly. However destroyers and Marathon-class Cruisers are outfitted with two MAC cannons. The Pillar of Autumn had one large MAC cannon which could fire three 144 ton "shredder" rounds in succession on a single charge.
But that supports my second conclusion. By assuming that 500 GJ wasn't a mistake, that mean the Phase Cannon should've just tore through the Constitution class.
By the way, they didn't take any apparent damage? Bzzzzzt! wrong. There were several explosions on the outer hull while the Constitution class didn't have power.
We're talking about Phase cannons from the NX-01 era. This has nothing to do with that.
^^ See Above ^^
So, we don't know how much power they can withstand, even though their sensors clearly read 400 GW?
...Actually, knowing every other failing on that ship, their sensors were probably faulty, too.
Ok, stop. Think. Just for a second. You want to explore a universe that likely has hostile life out there. What do you send? An unarmed vessel populated with civilians, or a ship designed to take on any other ship of it's class, populated with military personnel, I.e. a warship?
Further, if the Federation didn't have warships, why, then, does the Earth Empire in the alternate universe have the EXACT SAME SHIPS? Surely an empire based on expanding it's borders would want the best warships they could come up with, so why aren't their ships better than the Federation's? Instead, they're equivalent. That tells me that both the Feds and the Empire have warships.
If I have to name them, you're not a ST fan.
Gee, a program that rewrites computer software. What does that sound like? A virus?
Furthermore, if a virus could do that, then UNSC has a great upper hand. A copy of a shipboard AI could piggyback onto a hail (which a fed would likely answer, wanting peace and all) and then wreak havoc on every system onboard a Fed ship.
And if it is full of blatant lies, then how come there are numerous canon sources listed under the article? Or are you ignoring the very thing you're defending?
According to Star Trek, space is FULL of strange anomalies. If your explorer ship can't survive an encounter with one, what is it doing exploring? That in itself sounds like a design flaw to me. If I were to design an exploration vessel, I'd make sure of three things:
1. That critical systems (life support, engines) were all on separate grids, preventing any outside influence from shutting it down.
2. That my unstable energy source (warp core) was well shielded, preventing any anomalies from causing catastrophic failure.
3. That my ship's circuitry was grounded so my consoles wouldn't explode in my face when my ship takes damage.
Federation designers have done NONE of these things, and those, to me, are serious design flaws that need to be addressed.
Like you could reach top speed in a tactical situation. Unless you're doing a hit n' run, but I've never seen a Fed ship do that.
[/QUOTE]So yes, if they wanted to, a Starship could easily outmanuver a MAC given it has no means of guiding itself towards a target.[/QUOTE]
UNSC captains treat MACs with timing. Standard protocol, you have to time your shots so that the enemy wouldn't have a chance to react. The time it takes to bring the MAC's systems to full charge on a UNSC vessel is the deciding force in a conflict. Thus, while a vessel may not run out of ammunition for a long time (depending on the size/weight of the shots and the capacity of the ship), a captain or commander has to carefully analyze the situation of a battle and use his shots strategically. Thus, I don't think a UNSC captain would use his shots in a long range salvo.
...And how exactly do you pull that off? Do you even know what a MAC round is? It's a molten mass of Ferric Tungsten or Depleted Uranium. You'd be firing phasers and torpedoes into a bubbling mass of metal heading towards you at 2/5th the speed of light. And given the strategic way it's used by most UNSC captains, if your shots even made a difference, they wouldn't make much of one.
You don't factor in the speed of the projectile.
Yes i did the math is simple.
A super mac fires a 6000 ton projectile at 12,000km/s giving it approximately 51.6 gigatons.
The ship macs fire a 600-ton projectile at 30,000m/s giving it 66 kilotons.
Halo: The Fall of Reach, page 108
Halo: The Fall of Reach, page 320
Halo: The Fall of Reach (2010 edition), page 130
You are a decimal point out on your speed for the super mac it is 4% of c not 40%.
Separate names with a comma.