group sex, is it rape?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Asguard, May 14, 2009.

?

is this rape

  1. Yes

    7.3%
  2. No

    75.6%
  3. Other

    14.6%
  4. Want to vote

    2.4%
  1. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    Recently a women has come out claiming that she has suicidle thoughts because of group sex which she paticipated in 7 years ago. One of the male paticipants is a former rugby player who was employed by various clubs and the media. The girl was 19 at the time and police did investigate it and found that there was no evidence that a crime (ie rape) had taken place.

    However the former player has now been droped by most of his employers and rape counciling services have come out (i herd 2 on the radio but it could have been the same women both times) saying that the consent laws should be changed because there is no way a women could consent to this.

    So the question is that if you are not criminally cohersed into it as the law currently stands (ie not to drunk to be unawear of what you are doing, not druged, and you agree at the time) is it still morally rape? and if you do paticipate in something like this do you have the right to complain 7 years latter and destroy someones career because of it?
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    The moral to the story is that if one wants to enter a PR vocation, one has to be sensitive to PR issues.

    Perhaps Mathew Johns would have been better off as a truck driver or something .....
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    lightgigantic, it goes alot further than the initial incident and who did it. The laws of consent are set so that consent is IMIDIATE (ie miniute to minute as it happens), they are NOT retrospective. If the laws were changed as they have been talking about there is a real risk that someone who wakes up the next morning regreting there decision to go to bed with x could have x charged with rape
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    He hasn't been criminally charged and found guilty

    He's been sacked
     
  8. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    so?
    The rape crimes advocate (i cant think of the exact name of the organisation) want to have the law changed so it IS a crime. Ie to say that a 19 year old CANT consent to sexual activity of her choice. Thats the danger

    One of the interviews i was lissioning to was with his wife and she was quite correct. The only moral "crime" here was the fact that he cheated on her and thats up to the 2 of them to deal with.

    Personally on him specifically i think he should sue the women for destroying his carricter and his employment, but that is beside the point in relation to this thread. Im more interested in the nut jobs who want to use this to have the consent laws rewritten
     
  9. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    30,937
    Group sex can be consensual or non-consensual. If it is non-consensual, it is rape, because rape is sex without consent.

    In this case, obviously the police did not file charges. Perhaps that was because they did not believe they could prove in court beyond reasonable doubt that the woman involved did not consent. Or perhaps consent was an open question.

    What is clear is that this woman remains traumatised by the experience years later. As far as I am aware, she has never received an apology from the players or club officials involved, or even a query about her welfare.

    Criminal coercion is not necessary for rape. Technically, a person must consent to each and every sexual act. In the case of group sex, the person involved must consent to sex with each other person involved. In this case, the woman involved doesn't even know who all the people in the room were.

    You're blaming the victim here, Asguard.

    If Mathew John's career is destroyed, it's hardly the woman's fault. He was 30 years old, she was 19. He knew exactly what he was doing at the time, and he knew it was wrong.

    While a legal prosecution might not stand up in court due to the high standard of proof required, the public is obviously entitled to judge the evidence presented to it in its own way.

    Did you see the 4 corners episode that broke the story, Asguard? What's your opinion of the situation?
     
  10. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    30,937
    The age of consent won't be raised in a hurry.

    Sounds like the wife has totally discounted the experience of the victim and the impact on her. All she sees is herself and her husband, just as all he saw was some fun for himself and his mates.

    He should sue her because he took advantage of her and is now paying the price.

    Yeah, right.

    If anything, she should sue him for nervous shock and long-term psychological damage.
     
  11. John99 Banned Banned

    Messages:
    22,046
    of course if no crime was committed then the op is obsolete. however the players employer feels he does have a responsibilty to them and their image that he in some ways represents. i dont blame them for firing him and more employers should do this instead of looking to line their pockets.
     
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    30,937
    The man involved here has lost his job on TV because the TV station fears it will lose advertising revenue, as advertisers would want to distance themselves from the actions of this man.
     
  13. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    James R, as far as i have herd, NO ONE including the alleged victom has claimed that as the law currently stands in relation to consent that she DIDNT consent. you are quite right that consent must be given to every act, i would take it one step further and say that consent must be second to second because it can be withdrawn at any stage and IF there was doubt that consent was given then i would be quite happy to see the guy\s in front of a judge to deal with that. However as it has been reported thats NO WHAT HAPPENED. what has been reported as what happened was she consented and then latter regreted her desision. Thats a compleatly different situation from what YOUR discribing and you know it. Further more there is at least one women calling for consent laws to be changed, how she wants them changed she doesnt specify. Does she want the age raised? (i dont know the age where it happened, im not even 100% sure what state it was in but im SURE its at 18 or below because thats the age which marks an adult) Does she want group sex banned? if the second that raisis HUGE questions like what will be next? will FF be the next to move that no one would consent to having S&M and there for that should be banned? what about using light bondage?

    James im sure you rember what happened with those stupid laws banning FGM (great idea, stupid laws) which went from banning FGM on minors to banning consenting adults from getting formally legal piercings. Political adjenders must NOT be alowed to get into the bedroom. Im all for protecting those who dont or cant consent (like children) however im NOT in favor of destroying peoples lives because you wake up the next morning and think "what have i done"
     
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    30,937
    With all due respect, you don't know what the victim has claimed about the issue of consent. From the interview with her that I saw, she said she couldn't recall how many people had sex with her or who they were (with the exception of Matthew Johns).

    The New Zealand police at the time interviewed the entire team and officials as well as the woman involved and decided not to prosecute. However, that says nothing about whether consent was actually present or not.

    It's not a simple matter of regret. The woman has long-term psychological scars from the incident and has attempted suicide at least once. She feels degraded and still considers that it was her fault.

    There are always people who want the consent laws changed. They won't change because of this; I guarantee it.

    What are the chances, do you think, of this unnamed woman's views changing the laws of the land to ban all the things you mention? I'd guess about zero.

    No, I don't recall that.

    Depends what you want to call a "political agenda". It is arguably "political" to ban rape, but most people consider that to be a good thing.

    So, Asguard, what consequence, if any, do you think Matthew Johns and the others involved ought to suffer for this? Nothing? Just let them get on with their lives, leaving their victim to suffer in silence?

    Would you stand up and defend John's actions on TV?

    And on the wider issue, what do you think about the culture of group sex in rugby? That was the subject of the 4 corners programme, after all.
     
  15. swarm Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,207
    so she had consentual group sex and now regrets it 7 years later?

    She screwed so many people that she can't remember them all, but she is nailing him?

    Seems like the lesson is if you want to have group sex, don't be famous.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
  16. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,514
    Seems like the lesson is stay away from humans.
     
  17. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    30,937
    The issue of consent is not clear in this case.

    She apparently agreed to go to a hotel room with 2 men from the team. So, chances are she agreed to sex with one or both of them. Then, once they got started, their team mates started arriving. Soon, the room was full of perhaps 12 or 15 men participating to various extents. Some even climbed in through the bathroom window.

    Do you think she consented to the other 13 or 14 using her as an object? She says that nobody talked to her; they talked about her. She was used as a toy for some male bonding.

    I'd say the lesson is: make sure all parties give fully informed consent to your plans for group sex before you start.
     
  18. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    ok james, you want to know what i think should happen to him specifically. nothing, just like i think nothing should happen to someone ACUSSED of murder but not proven. rember ignoring that little detail is what lead to gitmo
     
  19. Roman Banned Banned

    Messages:
    11,560
    Clearly. Sex without consent is always rape.

    The problem here is, if you consent to something at some time, is it rape later if you end up regretting your decision?
     
  20. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    30,937
    Here, Johns has admitted what went on. There's no question that what happened happened.

    For my part, I think the public reaction to his treatment of the woman involved is to be expected. He knew what he was doing. He made a choice. Now he can finally take some responsibility for what he did.

    No, it isn't. (BTW, nobody is making accusations of rape here, although some have suggested that the police ought to take a second look at the incident. The police themselves have said the case is closed.)
     
  21. Roman Banned Banned

    Messages:
    11,560
    No it isn't rape, or no it isn't the issue here?
    I haven't read anything regarding this, other than what has been presented in this thread:

    That certainly sounds unsavory. I am uncertain how one should go about punishing those involved, though. Should they be?
     
  22. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,631
    Rape is, in the end, just a word. If the intent of the question is "Should having sex with such a nominally consenting woman be a crime?", then I would say no.

    If it means "Should it be considered to be morally reprehensible?", then I would say it depends on a variety of factors including the awareness of the men of the mental state of the moman in question, but that if they were (for example) aware that she was likely to suffer long term distress over this, then it would be morally reprehensible for them to continue.

    In this case, I thing there is a degree of pressure applied to a woman already in flagrante delicto when a large group of presumably strong and sexually aggressive men begin joining in. It is difficult for me to imagine any woman of undamaged self-esteem overtly agreeing to it, so I do think the men are fairly ascribed some degree of moral culpability for simply assuming she was okay with this. That said, there *are* women out there who would happily consent, I just suspect they are rare, but I can imagine many women who simply felt ashamed and intimidated into silence in that scenario, and the men involved should have recognized that as a possibility.

    Whether we call that "rape" or something else is semantics. It's morally questionable on the men's part, but I am not sure that you could convince me "beyond a reasonable doubt" that they all knew that she was not one of the rare women who might have enjoyed it (assuming there is no evidence of her trying to escape, cry out or stop things during the act, of course).
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
  23. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    30,937
    Roman:

    Sorry for the confusion. I was agreeing with you that if consent is given at the time and later regretted, that doesn't convert the act to rape after the fact.

    By the legal system? I don't think so, unless they committed a crime.

    By the public reaction we're seeing? Yes. Why should they get away with doing something like this with no consequences?

    This sole incident is not so important in itself, however. What is the real problem is that incidents of this nature in certain sporting circles are apparently not uncommon. So, what really needs addressing is the attitudes of some sportsmens to women.
     

Share This Page