Good Cop/Bad Cop

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Bowser, Dec 11, 2015.

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My feeling about the police...?

  1. They do the best they can while resolving very difficult situations.

    5 vote(s)
    62.5%
  2. They have too much authority and too much leeway for abuse.

    2 vote(s)
    25.0%
  3. They are too quick to shoot. Cops are killers

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  4. Anarchy!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,152
    My experience with the police has been a mixed bag; some were jerks while others were very friendly. When I consider the nature of their work--which is dealing with the worst society has to offer--I need appreciate their job and their responsibilities. Honestly, I couldn't do the work of a police officer. I also think they take too much garbage from the public at large. Even when they make a mistake, it's because of their responsibility to protect and serve.

    In short, society would ravage itself if not for the police. I'm glad they are around.

    Your opinion?
     
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  3. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    4,501
    good
    bad
    all professions have both
     
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  5. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    2,967
    Too many cops have a siege mentality - us against them, black hats against white hats.
     
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  7. wellwisher Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,160
    The police have a tough job, because they are sandwiched between the politicians and the bad guys. If the Mayor runs on a low crime platform, the police may need to achieve numbers, with the ends justifying the means, as long as the Mayor looks good at election time. If the Mayor needs more revenue, then the police will be expected to write more tickets, even when everyone knows this is extortion. It is not the police initiating this, but the needs of powers to be.

    On the other side, they have the bad guys, who play by a different set of rules, than you and I. Since the bad guys do not play by the same rules, police often have to play by the rules of the bad since it is easier and more effective. If you are playing one-on-one basketball and the other guy cheats and you play fair, you will alway have to play twice as hard and may even get hurt in the process by elbows. You may need to cheat to make the game fair and keep the cheater more honest. If the bad guy draws first blood, you get to draw second blood.

    The bad guys murder, assault, steal, rape, extort, intimidate honest citizens playing by the rules. These predators don't play by the same rules. The police may have to do similar things, but if you compare numbers, side by side, the bad guys are an order of magnitude or two worse. Why are the police singled out as the only bad guy? The black lives matter don't talk about the fact that most of the black lives, lost, are due to black criminals.

    There is a wild card in the equation. This has to do with lawyers. The more laws you make, the more violations will occur, therefore the more jobs there will be for lawyers. Many in the inner cities complain about being targeted for recreational drugs; victimless crimes.

    These laws, victimless or not, provide a lot of lawyer jobs. For example, according to the FBI
    there were 11,205,833 arrests in 2014 , with 1,561,231 of these drug related. Drug laws generate a lot of defense lawyer revenue. It turns out defense lawyers donate the most to the democratic party, which is the party of laws and regulations; lawyer jobs.

    The police are a scape goat to hide the damage being done by the leaders for political and funding raising reasons. If you notice the black live movement, that is making police an issue, are all in democrat controlled areas; democrat politics.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
  8. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,967
    If the police are playing by the same rules as the bad guys, how do you tell the police from the bad guys?
     
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  9. Yazata Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,659
    Cops are interacting with people all the time, they are always getting calls. So when they encounter you for some reason, you are basically just a number to them, one out of a hundred contacts they will have every day. Cops have things that they need to do when they contact someone. There's some reason for the contact. Their purpose in being there isn't to be friendly or to engage in light social interaction. They don't need to hear your life story, they just need to see your ID or whatever it happens to be. It's all very mechanical. If you try to get social with them, it just diverts them from what they have to do. So if they don't respond to your attempts to be friendly, it isn't because they are assholes, it's because you are just making things more complicated.

    Lots of people feel kind of paranoid when they are around police officers. They shouldn't. Cops have enough on their plate already, responding to serious matters, so they aren't likely to have any professional interest in you. They aren't morally judging you or sizing you up for arrest.

    The news media are intentionally stoking it. There's this myth out there that police are all racists who dream of the chance to kill young black men. If you tune into lefty news outlets, even moderate ones like CNN, they are often leading off with very positive coverage to the 'Black Lives Matter' movement which has exactly that message.

    The irony is incredible when something like the San Bernardino attacks happen and the same media outlets turn on a dime to very positive portrayal of police heroes risking their lives to save people.

    So what is the public supposed to think? Are police racist murderers or brave and stalwart defenders?

    Sometimes I fantasize about all police and law enforcement everywhere going on a month long strike. No arrests for assaults or armed robberies. No vigilance against terrorism or response to it if it occurs. No traffic enforcement. No secret service protection for the president. Nothing. Just tell everyone to take care of themselves... if they can.

    All the rhetoric about guns in public hands would certainly change overnight.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    34,694
    Is that I do not understand why the police need to break the law in order to enforce it.

    And also that it's not the 1950s, Bowser. This cardigan and necktie naïveté approach died with Fred MacMurray.

    In the State of Washington, the police have the legal right to murder you for whatever reason they want.

    So start with that. What part of their responsibility to protect and serve means they need that power?
     
  11. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,152
    Maybe you are being a little vague in your statement, Tiassa. My belief is that they can kill you when you present a danger to them or the public. Certainly they can't put you down for a traffic violation. But there are other circumstances that also apply.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.040

    It would seem that you, a private citizen, also have a right to kill under certain circumstances: defending yourself, others, and property.
     
  12. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,875
    Well, that's partially true. Cops often have a lot of down time, they are not always on a call. The degree of downtime depends on location. Some places are downright boring. What is true is cops sometimes have to go from zero to 100 in a matter of seconds. Their shifts and their duty can go quickly from relative calm to crisis in an instant. They are sometimes reviled and sometimes revered. And sometimes they have to deal with some very difficult people. In their jobs the deal with a great deal of variation in human behaviors and personalities.

    In most situations cops behave well and sometimes not. Sometimes cops are well paid, and sometimes they are not. But in any case, they are sometimes confronted with life and death situations and are required to make split second life and death decisions. For 10 years I worked as an EMT in a major urban center as an EMT. I worked with cops. And frankly, I think the EMTs had a more difficult job than the cops. The EMTs were confronted with the same kinds of people and many of the same situations with the same if not more risk and EMTs didn't carry defensive weapons. EMTs physically restrained people. I have physically restrained a number of folks during my time as an EMT.

    While there are somethings that are routine like requesting IDs. There are somethings that aren't routine. Cops and EMTs have to treat every situation differently, because people are different and situations are different. I don't know what you mean by social, cops or any first responder doesn't mind working with amiable folks. Most folks don't call cops or first responders because they want to socialize, although there are a few.

    I have noticed that some cops can be more aggressive than others. What I as an EMT would resolve with communication, sometimes a cop would be more inclined to resolve with physical restraint. I have observed those occasions, but that doesn't make the cop wrong or abusive. It was simply a different approach.

    Society has invested a great deal of power and trust in cops and in the vast majority of cases that trust is well founded. But cops, like all of us are not immune from bad judgement, bad days and assholes.

    Agreed, though I wouldn't use the word paranoid. I would say uncomfortable. When people are pulled over by policemen the best thing to do is be honest and stay seated in your car. If you made a mistake, own it.

    Well, that might be overstating it a bit. But some people do distrust policemen and the media does foment and exacerbate that distrust to feed its penchant for yellow journalism and higher ratings.

    The truth is policeman are just people. They are neither saints nor sinners and they provide a much needed and valuable service and the vast majority of them are good folks and do their job well. But they shouldn't be immune from scrutiny. Because bad cops are a reality. Some people idolize cops and that too is at least equally as dangerous and as wrong as defaming them. At the end of the day, cops aren't demons or saints. They are just people.

    Cops are vital to our society, their services are critical to society. I don't think too many people would question that, and most of them are really great good people and do a good job. Cops should be respected and neither canonized or demonized. Cops are just people doing an important job, just like firemen, EMTs, nurses, and physicians.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
  13. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,152
    People need to realize that the police deal with the worst society can offer. I couldn't keep a smile on my face under those conditions, much less make a career out of it.
     
  14. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,759
    Most do a difficult job well, and they do it to protect citizens. They are too often lumped in with the worst segments of the police force.
    Some do not do that job well, and a very few do it so poorly that their actions are criminal. They are too often defended just because they are fellow cops.
     
  15. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,875
    They do deal with the worst of the worst. But as an EMT I use to envy the cops because they didn't have to get up front and personal with it as I did. When I picked up a kid who was stabbed in the back, it wasn't the cop who had to get up front and personal with the kid and try to save his life. My partner and I were first on the scene and the murder was still there. I talked to him and he watched while we tried to save this kids life. Unfortunately, we didn't save this kid's life. The kid died. So while cops get to see the worst members of society, the EMTs are the ones who have to get up front and personal with those worst members of society and what those worst members of society do to their victims.

    Yes, cops get to see some pretty bad people. And yes, many of the people they deal with are absolute scumbags. They are always running scams, they aren't truthful. Life on the streets is pretty rough and there are a lot of bad characters out there. But that isn't a licence for cops or EMTs or anyone else to misbehave. After 10 years, I had my fill. It's tough if you work in a major urban area. I have lived it. But that isn't an excuse for misbehavior either and that is one reason why I am no longer an EMT.
     
  16. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,152
    Well, you've spelled it out, from your own personal experience. You know how tough it can be.
     
  17. Yazata Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,659
    I'm going to agree with Tiassa (!!!!! Hell just froze over) in saying that Washington state law seems to be awfully permissive regarding justifiable homicide by police officers. They are permitted to kill people who "resist" service of a process, order or mandate? And they are permitted to kill people who "resist" them in the performance of their duties?

    I'm guessing (hoping) that there is a huge body of Washington case law further restricting police officers' freedom to shoot anyone who "resists" them. Quite likely courts have already weighed in on whether this kind of thing deprives individuals of their constitutional rights to trial and due process.

    If not, this is probably an occasion for state legislators to rewrite the law.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    34,694
    It's something I have mentioned before↗ in other considerations; and that post also refers to the blog version↱; the key point:

    [Fmr. U.S. Attorney Jenny] Durkan's explanation is essentially a slightly more verbose reiteration of what the people were told at the time, that the state would be unable to overcome the presupposition of good faith. But here is the thing: Not only does nobody else get an internal review, speak nothing of an internal review that is traditionally so shoddy that it is subject to a second layer of review, and the city attorney can bury those reports if he chooses, but it was also found that Officer Birk perjured his incident report and manipulated physical evidence. What, exactly, are people supposed to think when the burden of good faith is too great to overcome for perjury and subversion of justice? Seriously? He lied in good faith?

    The only reason SPD even fired the guy was that he got caught lying and manipulating evidence. But they would not even charge him for that, because, you know, good faith. Nor was it insufficient evidence, as such. The state's version of it was that they saw no reason to file charges.

    He lied in good faith.

    And as I noted in the Sciforums version, considering the question of how people view police, I would suggest there is a great difference between what you are saying in the abstract and what it means in real application.

    It's hard to complain that the police take too much garbage from people when the practical reality is that any encounter we, the people, have with the police can end our lives for no decent reason.

    It really is a dangerous situation; you don't know if you're dealing with a bad cop until it's too late.
     
  19. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,929
    Strangely enough you are wrong. The Black Lives Matter movement started in Ferguson which (surprise, surprise) has a republican mayor.
    The black lives movement is not only in democratically controled areas, that is completely absurd. So are you saying that if a black person is in an area that is controled by the rebublican party he won't be a part of the black lives matter movement?
    I think what you are seeing is that the largest demonstrations, which is what the TV news is going to cover, are from the largests cities - makes sense right? So the reason it seems that the issues are in democratic areas is because there are almost no republican mayors in the largest cities.
    So, in short, I think you are seeing things through Murdoch colored glasses.
     
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  20. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,501
    I like cops.
    Whenever they feel a need to talk to me, I respond lightheartedly, politely, and succinctly.
    Once that's done, a little humor goes a long way, as does asking for advice.

    My first interaction with a police officer was as a lost little boy, crying on a Chicago sidewalk. The officer figured out how to escort me to my uncles garage, and did so, holding my hand all the way.
    That memory comes in handy when I meet new(previously unknown) policemen. They get some of my gratitude, and seem to appreciate it.
    "The thin blue line between me and chaos".
    If you ever see a cop approaching you in a menacing manner, look up with a smile, and with spreading arms(hands exposed and empty). and exclaim, "Wow, just the guy I was looking for!" (great stress reliever)

    and:
    Know your rights, and, if need be, politely remind the officer of his oath to protect and defend those rights.
    That being said;
    I have known, or known of, brutal dishonest cops too quick to pick a fight, or lie to get a conviction.
    And, some who were just incompetent for the complexity of their job, trying to get by with bluff and bluster.
    These guys need a tad more compassion than is normal.

    Ain't nobody's perfect and I ain't throwing no stones.
     
  21. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,051
    There are times when it should be obvious, such as driving above speed limits and going in places where normal people would be prohibited/tresspassing.
    I find that very hard to believe, not to mention self-contradictory. Please provide a quality/reputable/official reference detailing that power.
     
  22. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,875
    If it were so lenient one would expect police involved homicides to be more prevalent. This is Seattle Police Department Policy:

    8.000 - USE OF FORCE CORE PRINCIPLES
    Effective Date: 09/01/2015

    This section outlines the Seattle Police Department’s core principles relating to the use of force. These general principles provide the foundation for the more specific policies governing the application, reporting, investigation and review of force. The Department recognizes that officers will face unique and challenging circumstances not specifically addressed in this policy. Officers are expected to apply these core principles reasonably in unanticipated situations.

    1. Every Member of the Seattle Police Department is Committed to Upholding the Constitution and Laws of the United States and the State of Washington, and Defending the Civil Rights and Dignity of All Individuals, While Protecting Human Life and Property and Maintaining Civil Order.

    It is the policy of the Seattle Police Department to accomplish the police mission with the cooperation of the public and as effectively as possible, and with minimal reliance upon the use of physical force.

    The community expects and the Seattle Police Department requires that officers use only the force necessary to perform their duties and that such force be proportional to the threat or resistance of the subject under the circumstances.

    An officer’s commitment to public safety includes the welfare of members of the public, the officer, and fellow officers, with an emphasis on respect, professionalism, and protection of human life, even when force is necessary.

    Officers who violate those values by using objectively unreasonable force degrade the confidence of the community, violate the rights of individuals upon whom unreasonable force is used, and may expose the Department and fellow officers to legal and physical hazards.

    Conversely, officers who fail to use timely and adequate force when it is necessary may endanger themselves, the community and fellow officers.

    2. When Safe under the Totality of the Circumstances and Time and Circumstances Permit, Officers Shall Use De-Escalation Tactics in Order to Reduce the Need for Force

    Additional guidance on how to reduce the need to use force may be found in Section 8.100.

    3. Sometimes the Use-of-Force Is Unavoidable, and an Officer Must Exercise Physical Control of a Violent, Assaultive, or Resisting Individual to Make an Arrest, or to Protect Members of the Public and Officers From Risk of Harm

    In doing so:

    * Officers should recognize that their conduct prior to the use of force, including the display of a weapon, may be a factor which can influence the level of force necessary in a given situation.

    * Officers should take reasonable care that their actions do not precipitate an unnecessary, unreasonable, or disproportionate use of force, by placing themselves or others in jeopardy, or by not following policy or training.

    * Officers should continually assess the situation and changing circumstances, and modulate the use- of-force appropriately.

    4. An Officer Shall Use Only the Degree of Force That Is Objectively Reasonable, Necessary Under the Circumstances, and Proportional to the Threat or Resistance of a Subject

    Objectively reasonable: The reasonableness of a particular use of force is based on the totality of circumstances known by the officer at the time of the use of force and weighs the actions of the officer against the rights of the subject, in light of the circumstances surrounding the event. It must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight

    The calculus of reasonableness must allow for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions—in circumstances that are tense, uncertain, dynamic and rapidly evolving—about the amount of force that is necessary in a particular situation.

    The reasonableness inquiry in an excessive-force case is an objective one: whether the officers’ actions are objectively reasonable in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them, without regard to their underlying intent or motivation.

    Necessary: Officers will use physical force only when no reasonably effective alternative appears to exist, and only then to the degree which is reasonable to effect a lawful purpose.

    Proportional: The level of force applied must reflect the totality of circumstances surrounding the situation, including the presence of imminent danger to officers or others. Proportional force does not require officers to use the same type or amount of force as the subject. The more immediate the threat and the more likely that the threat will result in death or serious physical injury, the greater the level of force that may be objectively reasonable and necessary to counter it.

    Guidance on when force is authorized may be found in Section 8.200.

    5. Each Officer Is Responsible for Explaining and Articulating the Specific Facts, and Reasonable Inferences From Those Facts, Which Justify the Officer’s Use Of Force

    The officer’s justification will be reviewed to determine whether or not the force used was in or out of policy.

    Failure to adequately document and explain the facts, circumstances, and inferences when reporting force may lead to the conclusion that the force used was out of policy.

    Additional guidance on reporting force may be found in Section 8.400.

    6. The Department Is Committed to Upholding Lawful, Professional, and Ethical Standards Through Assertive Leadership and Supervision Before, During, and After Every Force Incident

    The Seattle Police Department recognizes the magnitude of the responsibility that comes with the constitutional authority to use force. This responsibility includes maintaining vigorous standards and transparent oversight systems to ensure accountability to the community in order to maintain their trust. This includes:

    * Force prevention efforts,

    * Effective tactics, and

    * Objective review and analysis of all incidents of reportable force

    Additional guidance on the Department’s review of force may be found in Section 8.500.

    7. A Strong Partnership Between the Department and the Community Is Essential for Effective Law Enforcement and Public Safety

    Uses of force, even if lawful and proper, can have a damaging effect on the public’s perception of the Department and the Department’s relationship with the community.

    Both the Department and individual officers need to be aware of the negative effects of use-of-force incidents and be empowered to take appropriate action to mitigate these effects, such as:

    * Explaining actions to subjects or members of the public

    * Offering reasonable aid to those affected by a use-of- force

    * Treating subjects, witnesses, and bystanders with professionalism and courtesy

    * Department follow-up with neighbors or family to explain police actions and hear concerns and feedback http://www.seattle.gov/police-manual/title-8---use-of-force/8000---use-of-force-core-principles
     
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    24,303
    CNN is a solidly rightwing news outlet. Black Lives matter has no such message. Your info source is full of shit.
    So the police are basically running a protection racket, with the criminals as their muscle.

    I've seen police work like that - it used to be common for police to withdraw protection from men they thought were gay, for example, allowing all manner of assaults and crimes against them. Hitchhikers and "hippies" and the like, also.

    That works for me, too. White hath its privileges, indeed.

    The black guys I work with - it's a little different story.

    So are bad police forces - entire police forces whose norm of behavior is abusive towards entire communities of people.

    Spiritually, karmically, psychologically, there may be no more difficult civilian job than police officer. These guys are often sleep deprived, as well - working debilitating shift hours etc. And people lie to them all the time, every day all day. That's corrosive. So maybe a sane community would give them regular time off, psychological recuperation time - like, months consecutive of normal human life every so often.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015

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