Are you sure about that? Actually, Jenyar, I'm not trying to build a house in the sand. It's merely a hitch in Cris' assertion. Otherwise, consider the idea that, while the path to God might be through love, God itself cannot solely be love. That condition makes God too weak to live up to Bliblical and Christian assertions of His authority. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
If you take the bullet, it is not suicide... You are sacrificing your life to save someone elses, you arent killing yourself because you cannot take it anymore.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hopefully finally 'butt in' [Will you look at that?!?] Looking at it this way... You have to realise, Jesus was God, Jesus would have felt the temptation to do many things you did given similar circumstances. In the same way, the husband, who takes the bullet, might be sure of his ressurection on the day of judgement [read my reply to Cris], he might not be sure of his wife's. Didn't he still sacrifice himself? I'm sure he would've felt conflicting emotions, just like Jesus did. Well in conclusion, I can risk getting hit by a car by helping a blind man cross the street. The risk can be of varying degrees, depending on the traffic on the road. I don't know what's going to happen. Baseline - risk can't be applied to God, and you know why, of course [uncertainty].
If you do not believe Jesus is the savior, how can believe that he can forgive you, let alone accept his forgivness. You MUST believe in Jesus and his divinity (and accept it) because that is how you are forgiven. People uphold prayer as the way to be forgiven, but no. Praying for forgiveness is not forgiveness. Prayer is the demonstration of belief that through Jesus you are forgiven. This is why no direct action was needed to save the hypothetical suicidal man taking the bullet for his wife. He was Christian. He believed Jesus would wipe away his sin, and so it was gone. This is not to say that Christians are allowed to sin, but we do, and because we believe, are forgiven. The sacrifice is also another way of saying Jesus power to wipe away sin. That phrasing developed because it was Jesus sacrifice of a perfect life that bestowed the power to forgive sin. Because Jesus is a part of God. The very first sentence of the bible starts "In the beginning, God..." Gen.1:1 That word God, in its Hebrew form, literally means three in one. Thus from the very start, the Bible tells you Jesus is not just God's son, but also part of God himself.
Your basic argument seems to be "If you believe God can choose to save you, and believe in Jesus being God on earth, then Jesus is your savior". That logic seems to flow except that I don't buy the 'trans-historic' part of His sacrifice. My next question would be.. why do Jews not believe Jesus is their savior? Especially if God in Hebrew means 3 in 1.
The closest meaning that Yodh, He, Waw, and He has in Hebrew is the verb "to be". Some may say it implies all three tenses, past, present and future. Nowhere does this imply three entities in one. Otherwise there would be a wider agreement of the Trinity.
Thank you. This brings up a new question of reasons for belief and non-belief in the Trinity... it'd drag us off topic, but I think we already arePlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
ok persol...once again.... God did not lie and does not lie. Ok here are some backups read this and then judge if you think God lies or not. Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. ok for this one. "Sometimes God hastens the destruction of a rebellious person through influences that cause thtm to fall deeper into depravity...which is the case here, where the Lord warns that he will judge a prophet for cooperating with an idolater. The passage does not say that God will over power the prophet and forcing him to sin against his will. Rather, it assumes that the prophet is aware of te inquire's idolatry but minimizes it perhaps for financial gain." 1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. No God isn't guilty of lying. "God allowed 400 phrophets to prophesy falsehoods. He used them much as the he sometimes used heathen nations to punish Israel (see Hab. 1:2-11). Remember that Micaiah denounced the false prophets. God didn't trick Ahab; he offered him a choice--believe a lie or believe the truth." 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ok for these two: "Those who refuse to believe (v.10) eventually become incapable of believing. When ppl resist God, he allows a hardening to develope." see the "allows" in these explanations? and the "choice" 's? hmm....something to think about eh? Why would God use a lie to accomplish his purpose you might ask...... 2 Chronicles 18:22 the explanation(this is not verses in the Bible. Just in case you thought they were.): "Ahab, though unwilling to follow the Lord, tried to get God to endorse his plan though the prophets. he decieved himself and get exactly what he wanted --confirmation of his war strategy. if he had been opne the true word form the Lord, however, he would have recognized that the false prophets were simply echoing his personal desires. in the final analysis, God did not decieve Ahab. He gave him the choice between believeing a lie and believing the truth. But Ahab already had his mind made up and chose what he wanted to believe." Now what do you think? Did God lie? NO! You might want to re-read this a couple of times (my advice) before you send another message. Read carefully.
answer to a question up a little...scroll up.... Good question. Jews are still waiting for their messiah. Jesus is/was the messiah, but they believe that he was just another really good rabbi (teacher). They only believe in some of the old testiment. I am not a Jew, so sorry if there are any reading this if I got this wrong or not. God in Hebrew means 3 in 1, you're right, which means they are still waiting for the messiah, they don't believe Jesus was; for what reasons I couldn't tell you at this moment. Research it a little. There are answers. Please, other ppl answer to this to. I'm not judging Jews in any way. I wanna know what your inputs are too.
Re: ok persol...once again.... Originally posted by withoutGodIamnothin Ezekiel 14:9 "Sometimes God hastens the destruction of a rebellious person through influences...." It says very clearly "I the LORD have deceived that prophet". While it may not be a lie, it is still deceipt. 1 Kings 22:23 No God isn't guilty of lying. "God allowed 400 phrophets to prophesy falsehoods." I agree that God didn't do himself lie, but 'putting the lying spirit' implies that he influenced the choice to lie. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 "Those who refuse to believe (v.10) eventually become incapable of believing. When ppl resist God, he allows a hardening to develope." It doesn't say "God shall allow them strong delusion" it says send them see the "allows" in these explanations? and the "choice" 's? Sorry... but no... it may be possible that you are correct, but you have not made a convincing remark. hmm....something to think about eh? That's why I started this thread. Why would God use a lie to accomplish his purpose you might ask...... The same reason parents doPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! However, do you think it is'right' for God to encourage evil for his own purpose? 2 Chronicles 18:22 the explanation(this is not verses in the Bible. Just in case you thought they were.): I know... I am wondering why they are quotes thoughPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Now what do you think? Did God lie? NO! You might want to re-read this a couple of times (my advice) before you send another message. Read carefully. Zep 2:3 - Seek righteousness, seek humility.
Re: answer to a question up a little...scroll up.... I'm trying to find this at the moment... in my mind just following the OT would still be legitimate if you are not SURE that Jesus was actually God. False prophets and all that... Found so far: Jewish view on why Jesus is not the Messiah - Mainly attacks using contradictions... also very annoying popup ads Jewish Messiah beliefs - It basically comes down to their feeling that Jesus was not a savior to the Israelites, and instead caused destruction A to the point list of reasons - This is the most complete one... although it doesn't give counter-arguments
In the end it appears to come down to Jews believing that Jesus did not fit the Messiah definition, and that only God should be worshipped... not his creation. This makes sense, in that even if Jesus was the messiah WE have no way of knowing that besides faith. The worst that happens is we err on the side of caution and worship God directly, as he would be today, and not a person who may or may not be Him. If Jesus happens to be God, they'd be worshipping him indirectly.
Of gods and men... Also you should take a look at the Old Testament examples of men or objects that were worshipped as gods (whether elevated to that position by themselves or by others - it didn't seem to matter much), and their consequent destruction. Some examples include the brass serpent, Nehushtan, whose destruction is related in 2 Kings 18:4; the nameless "King of Babylon" mentioned in Isaiah 14; and the "King of Tyrus" spoken of so harshly in Ezekiel 28. The NT itself points out the similarity between Nehushtan and Jesus, in John 3:14. Oddly enough, the mother of Jechonias (of the abominable branch from which Jesus allegedly descended) was named Nehushta. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! And if you read the Isaiah and Ezekiel passages very closely, you will soon begin to notice a remarkable resemblance to the savior of the Christian religion. Coincidence? I think not...
The obvious isn't obvious? Isn't that the reason they're referred to as prophecies? Or is it the arguement they(not sure who they is myself) molded Jesus' life and death to match these prophecies? I have heard that one before but I'm not sure it makes much sense.
Re: The obvious isn't obvious? So you are admitting that the "King of Babylon" (a.k.a., Lucifer, the Morning Star) in Isaiah 14 and a similar character referred to as the "King of Tyre" in Ezekiel 28 are both archetypes for Jesus? :bugeye: Well, that makes sense to me, but color me surprised that you would agree! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
