God does exist.

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Daiel Hegarty, Sep 28, 2002.

  1. everprince Registered Member

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    you can prove it

    you can prove it, just not everyone believes,

    what you can't do is show people God, until Judgement Day tho.

    everprince

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  3. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    No, you are completely wrong. The first of what we now call scientists we the ancient Greeks, Egyptians and Mesopotamians (among others). None of them were Christians. Not one.
    Many also believed the world was flat. Many also believed that the Earth was ruled by a vast number of gods who lived on the top of a mountain. Many also believed they could turn a different medal into gold simply by mixing things. The point is - what they believed is not indictive of the truth at all.
     
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  5. everprince Registered Member

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    Greeks believed snot in your brain made u sick

    um yeah great what is your point? you missed mine and not only that argued against your own point, THESE ANCIENT GREEKS AND EGYPTIANS also had the same inccorect beliefs you just stated, ****.

    what does the "many" who have incorrect beliefs have to do with Christians??? you could apply that to your "scientists" who also believed nonsense in those days as many still do both christian and no christian! When you want to prove a point, prove it, don't refer to something and pretend there is some magical link to a point you are trying to make. If I say most scientists eat food, what the hell does that prove if I don't explain what it has to do with Christians not having the correct beliefs? I'm not replying to your replies anymore, you are not intelligent enuf to carry on a useful conversation. Also you were to stupid to tell me what I wanted to know and instead introduced annoying nonsense that had nothing to do with my questions.

    get a life

    everprince

    Moderator edit: Personal insults add nothing useful to the discussion.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2003
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  7. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Re: On 'slaps in the face'...

    Originally posted by MarcAC
    Well Wes, what do you use? As The Prince so studiously illustrated, it certainly cannot be logic. What are your terms of reference in determining right from wrong?

    I use reason. In terms of what is advantageous to me. It seems for instance to be quite advantageous to me as a social creature to adhere to the golden rule: "do unto others". I would say that Everprinces argument is nullified by the very first sentence: "The reason we feel the need and do need to refer to scripture to determine wrong from right is because God did not allow us perfect recollection of the laws he programed into us." I suppose you don't see the unreasonable falacy? "god did now allow us"? WTF is that crap? Well, I'm sure you can possibly see a little uh.. damnit I'm not familiar enough with the types of illogic... but I'll just label it circular and move on eh? My terms for reference are pure selfishness. Sounds ugly eh? I agree it does but ultimately that's my motivation for everything. It just so happens though, that for instance I find it pleasurable to argue about this junk. I find it pleasurable to please people I care about. Blah blah blah... if you study this from a pure economic perspective, IMO.. you'll find that the more selfish I am, the better off you are. Cheap example: Say I want more education for no money. I'll seek out other people of intellect learn from them. In the process (since i'm so damned smart (giggle)) you'll learn from me. Eh, you get my meaning.


    Your slang modified. IMO/IYO me/you? Get it?

    Oh, it was the parenthesis that threw me.

    In the human mind your why is as plausible as mine: in truth/reality one is more plausible than the other. My faith in my God tells me it’s mine.

    But your faith in god is NOT based in reason... it is thusly unreasonable. To me it follows directly that it is NOT VERY PLAUSIBLE.

    In other words you just don’t want to find out what ‘the truth’ is just yet, and more than likely you don’t think you can. The search is exciting enough. You want to think and explore, with serendipitous discovery. I agree, I’m an X-Files junkie too. That whole show was sustained by Mulder’s search for ‘the truth’. But interestingly, my faith in God the Triune, in no way, limits my exploration of the wildest hypotheses concerning cosmogony. Not matter how far back you go you have to come to that point where you say, God. That’s how I see it. E=mc^2 [energy cannot be created or destroyed – so there was energy – then chaos which produced this] is a sorry excuse to eliminate God from the equation. I forgot the scriptural reference, but in the Bible, a verse says – paraphrased – With God, all things are possible. I believe in the possibilities of intelligent alien life, evolution – these, in my eyes, in no way conflict with any biblical teachings. But then, if I were to forsake my faith in God, I’d forsake all things being possible, no?

    I'll start with the first sentence there... want???? What the hell are you saying man? That's retarded and indicative of a halfassed attempt at psychoanalysis from a meme infested mind. You seriously sound like a cult member saying that kind of stuff man. Can you think of a bunch of examples that would make that assertion look foolish? "Uhm... my invisible donkey's ass is a LOT bigger than your invisible donkey's ass, you just don't want to believe it!". Dude, I would expect more from you. (I dug the x-files too though, untill the last couple of seasons when I was begging for the stupid crap to finally end.) Oh and no matter how far back you go you have to think "god" at some point? No I don't. How do you presume to even comprehend TIME let alone a what could have existed before it... do you understand how weird it is to think like that? It's nearly impossible. Try to imagine a complete lack of time.. eh, anyway.. you just have to say "god" because you are in the grips of a mind virus. You don't HAVE to say anything. The reasonable response is to plea the fifth. Ignorance in this case is NOT bliss, but it is all there is.. your word "god" is a mere psychological tool to ignore this uncomfortable fact. Even more importantly: Okay, say "god" is a reasonable assumption for the sake of argument. The next extrememly important question becomes "okay, you think there is a god - why is does the bible have any legitamacy WHATSOEVER in describing what this "god" might have to say?" WHY? It doesn't unless you make it that way in YOUR HEAD. That is all. It's a piece of propaganda designed to teach an animalistic species how to behave. A tool for social control/design.

    Unwarranted in your eyes, but not necessarily untrue.

    That is the weakest of arguments. My martian is giant and green. That's not necessarily untrue either right?

    That shouldn’t turn you off from the Bible, just the readers who ignore it.

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    Why should I be turned onto the bible in the first place? I'm not that much of a history buff and honestly the perspective of the people involved in writing it would not have encompassed reality since the peoples didn't even know the world was round or that gunpowder goes bang... so I don't have a lot of interest.

    I doubt reason will help me after I complete this ‘leg of my journey’. You see, you’re getting ‘slapped in the face?’ all the time, but it’s like your spiritual senses are temporarily paralyzed, you just don’t feel it.

    Hehe, yeah. You keep telling yourself that. If it makes you feel secure I'm sure it's worth it I suppose, but really I find it despicable that your mind virus has made so presumptuous as to assume you know what's slapping my spiritual face. I'm not paralyzed bro. You might have noticed I'm quite perceptive.

    Oh, and sorry, you're a cool dude man, I don't mean to be insulting. I just feel strongly about the issue so my apologies if I've offended.
     
  8. everprince Registered Member

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    whatever monkey

    dude ur reponse was so bloated and nonsensical...

    seeya

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  9. Zero Mass Registered Senior Member

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    Re: whatever monkey

    Bloated and nonsensical, ehhh? I highly recommend that you read some of the stuff on that webking page that you linked.

    It is that largest collection of nonsensical crap I have ever seen in my life: here is a link off of that site about evolution, please note the use of cartoons on this site for the millions of Christians with diminished capacity, like everprince:

    http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/genesis.html
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2003
  10. MarcAC Curious Registered Senior Member

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    No Accolade to EverPrince

    If you are an active reader and don't have extremely short term memory you would have figured that "Based on the view" referred to the former statement. There is nothing wrong with the grammar.
    So, since there is no "proof" for what I "just said" it means it is nonsense. I'd like you to prove that what I "just said" is nonsense. You need to read more actively.
    If the word monkey referred to MarcAC - in which case the person who typed this is also a monkey - or alas! alien life exists [reserved intelligent for now] - MarcAC was arguing exactly the opposite everprincce. Your first argument sounded good - that's what accolade alludes to, but what you typed here doesn't make any sense in reference to my post.

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    Were you really responding to my post?
    Therefore your arguments above amount from nothing, I agree, because you misinterpreted totally.
    Or were you typing before a mirror?

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  11. MarcAC Curious Registered Senior Member

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    What if it was advantageous to you to kill someone? Would you do it? Advantageous meaning that you'd get away with it as clean as a whistle. The ‘more selfish I am the better off you are’ term can only work for a few people, alas, the ones you care about? And speaking of care about – what is the reasoning behind ‘caring about’ anyone at all?
    Christians - you would say - assume - but we would say know - that since God is all powerful the only way we can, in essence, have anything at all is if He allows it. And about the other stuff that everprince posted - if he/she is saying what I think - well God did allow us perfect recollection of the 'laws he programmed into us', it's just for us to feel that 'slap in the face' so to speak or for us to recall them. It is up to us. If He did not allow us perfect recollection of true goodness and love how would He expect us to follow His way?
    I was attempting a psychoanalysis. So you want to know what 'the whole truth' is - but do you think you can, really? How would you know when you are at the 'truth of all truths'. I always liken scientific reality to a curve Y=1/X, where the X and Y axes are the truths of all truths - science would be the curve Y=1/X. It could get veeeeeery close to the Y or X axes but for those on the curve they won't know when they are close or when they are at the point where Y and X = 1 (farthest). Get it? We are on that curve where science is concerned - my view – possibly where everything is concerened.
    That's where faith in God and Jesus Christ as His Son comes in. Jesus illustrated the value of scripture for Christians.
    Not necessarily. But in truth and reality it is either one or another or both - mine could be grey and have big black eyes - they could both exist as separate species... etc. No evidence to support this, right? So it is improbable. Well, ‘God did it’ is still as plausible as any explanation going back to that 'event' prior to creation of the universe in a reasonable mind (you know that mine isn't reasonable so... go figure).

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    because for all the explanations out there they are just guess work. That's why you can't argue about God's existence. It can't be proven or disproven - in my eyes it won't need to be. I just try to argue about other things which might lead to the assumption that God doesn't exist. And interestingly, science thrives on assumption. Scientists assume there is something called ‘Dark Energy’ from observed phenomena. Einstein assumed. String theorists assume. Then they wait/search for evidence to support their assumptions. In essence hypothesise are assumptions based on limited evidence. As I’m sure you know.
    This is thought to be suggested in the bible - but it is debatable – I guess it could also mean the near circular orbit about the Sun? heh heh – Isaiah 40:22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and it’s people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy and spreads them out like a tent to live in. (New International Version). I’m no history buff either, I look to the Bible for present day guidance, and future reference. It works.
     
  12. MarcAC Curious Registered Senior Member

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    For everprince...

    One more thing... you should learn to post properly, as in the post Re:Accolade to Everprince you quoted some of the potential crap you were saying and made it look like I posted it. So please, post properly. Is "nonesense" and "nonesensical" all there is in your vocabulary... or yooouurrr... head? Are you really a Christian?

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  13. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    But MarcAC

    You forgot to respond to some stuff:

    Oh and no matter how far back you go you have to think "god" at some point? No I don't. How do you presume to even comprehend TIME let alone a what could have existed before it... do you understand how weird it is to think like that? It's nearly impossible. Try to imagine a complete lack of time.. eh, anyway.. you just have to say "god" because you are in the grips of a mind virus. You don't HAVE to say anything. The reasonable response is to plea the fifth. Ignorance in this case is NOT bliss, but it is all there is.. your word "god" is a mere psychological tool to ignore this uncomfortable fact. Even more importantly: Okay, say "god" is a reasonable assumption for the sake of argument. The next extrememly important question becomes "okay, you think there is a god - why is does the bible have any legitamacy WHATSOEVER in describing what this "god" might have to say?" WHY? It doesn't unless you make it that way in YOUR HEAD. That is all. It's a piece of propaganda designed to teach an animalistic species how to behave. A tool for social control/design.

    and

    You keep telling yourself that. If it makes you feel secure I'm sure it's worth it I suppose, but really I find it despicable that your mind virus has made so presumptuous as to assume you know what's slapping my spiritual face. I'm not paralyzed bro. You might have noticed I'm quite perceptive.

    In response to the first line of your last post to me:

    And it is never to my advantage to kill someone just for sport even if I could get away with it. What right do I have to steal that person's life? Regardless of whether I get away with it? I don't want someone to behave that way towards me. If that's true, I have to be responsible to see that within my sphere of control, i do not treat someone as I would not want to be treated to the best of my ability.

    It's about personal responsibility.

    You relinquish all of yours with your poorly placed faith.
     
  14. MarcAC Curious Registered Senior Member

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    Yes Wes?...

    I did, or tried to but I didn't quote everything... I think I just... o.k.... I'll try again... I responded to the part about the bible and why is it worth at least a millisecond of your time... I'll try the rest. About me comprehending time, good question. But my point is that what we know or think we know about God and what we know or think we know about science have no bearing on each other - mutually exclusive - when it comes to proof of God's existence. Therefore if you go and explain that there was pure energy and then something happened. It doesn't disprove my notion/knowledge of/faith in God's existence - it doesn't give me a reason to disbelieve - the only way I can disbelieve is - well - I guess never - I was gonna say after I die but that's something else. They have that notion about energy cannot be created or destroyed. I can say God created energy. God cannot be created or destroyed. I don't think it is wierd to think like that [what exisated before time - hell it's fun]. If you don't think like that how on earth will you ever begin to comprehend what happened back then? What existed back then - if anything? It's either something existed or there was nothing. I don't know about you but I'd be curious. I need to know. If you think that's wierd then you should think that Einstein is one wierd cookie for dreaming up relativity. That type of thinking is required for you to fully comprehend what the hell time is - my view. That type of thinking drives hypotheses and scientific discovery - my view. That type of thinking battles scientific 'inertia'. You are right though, you definitely don't have to say anything; even the bible acknowledges that, but that stance has consequences.
    It is worth it. Either way. I know it seems presumptious. You can see it that way if you wish. I can't see it that way. I might find it presumptious that you would think that my condition is due to some 'mind virus' or something - or that it is not a worthy stance, because in truth, you obviously can't say for sure, you can only criticize it. About your perception. That within itself is or could be an illusion, you will look at the world in visible light and the bee will see it in ultraviolet. Dog's see it in black and white and red and green - it is assmued. You might look at a "crowd" of zebras and see zebras - lions will look and see an amalgam of stripes - so they can't isolate any to attack. Who is really seeing it as it is? You or the lion? You or the dog? You or the bee? Who are you; the human who sees zebras individually, or the lion who sees just stripes? I see the huge hole in this potential argument but hopefully you'll 'walk past it without noticing'
    I didn't say just for sport. What if there was a girl you really loved, the next question is what logical reason you would have to love her?

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    he heh. And there was this other guy that she loved - you and him equally - you saw an opportunity to tamper with this guys car and run him off the road - and make sure he doesn't tell anybody about it - hey - then you'd get the girl. Logical don't you think?
    That's not the question, the question is what is preventing you from taking that persons life?
    Why???... anyway... Holy crap!?!? Do you know that a paraphrase of that is in the Bible?!?!?! I quoted a similar sentiment on the previous page in a post to one/a few of the apparent Christians - including myself. Have you been reading and holding out on us wes???

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    Luke 6:31; "Treat others just as you want to be treated." [Contemporary English Version] Well damn... wes?... it would seem that... according to your principles... the Bible has some use after all... LOL. Maybe you should have a read?
    I guess God, or those people who "didn't even know the world was round or that gunpowder goes bang..."? were possibly as smart as you?!?... LOL.
    Wierdly enough, that 'poorly placed faith' provides me with the same sentiments that you seemingly have. LMAO. Hell, maybe it's not so 'poorly placed' after all!?!
     
  15. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Re: Yes Wes?...

    Originally posted by MarcAC
    About me comprehending time, good question. But my point is that what we know or think we know about God and what we know or think we know about science have no bearing on each other - mutually exclusive - when it comes to proof of God's existence.

    That's not entirely true. Science can in fact generously debunk the claims made by those who purport "truth" regarding religious events in history. For instance, science tells us the world is not the center of the universe... but before copernicus, you weren't supposed to imply such things. Did he pay for his life with his sin of science? They interact directly and have over thousands of years. Generally with power asserting itself in the name of religion to tread upon science. Thank "god" that's mostly over with eh? *cough* Hell man, creationist idiots have successfully removed EVOLUTION from the educational mix in Kansas right? (not sure, thought that's what I read not too long ago). Yeah, mutually exclusive. Well, you're off on a technicality "the existence of god" could be constrewed as indepedent from religion, but it's YOU who quotes the bible and implies dependency, so I believe you're wrong even by your own reasoning.

    Therefore if you go and explain that there was pure energy and then something happened. It doesn't disprove my notion/knowledge of/faith in God's existence - it doesn't give me a reason to disbelieve - the only way I can disbelieve is - well - I guess never - I was gonna say after I die but that's something else.

    Well then why do you debate it? Just want to understand the other side? I understand your side, I just want to educate you. Of course it never works, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't try. Plus I get intellectual excercise. I like you, but IMO, you've exactly demonstrated that you are unreasonable with your statement "the only way I can disbelieve is - well - I guess never". That makes me sick. Not only from the content, but from the phrasing. You put it in terms of "disbelief" rather than belief. Your assertion "god exists" is unwavering in your mind to the point that there is no way NOT to believe.

    I have faith that reason will lead me towards truth, you have faith that "jesus christ (who is DEAD mind you) is your savior." I'll stick with my faith thank you, as it is reasonable by definition. Plus, I'd hate to distract you from your efforts to confound your mind with retarded assertions regarding old fairy tales.

    They have that notion about energy cannot be created or destroyed. I can say God created energy. God cannot be created or destroyed. I don't think it is wierd to think like that [what exisated before time - hell it's fun]. If you don't think like that how on earth will you ever begin to comprehend what happened back then? What existed back then - if anything? It's either something existed or there was nothing.

    You missed my point. I didn't say "don't think like that" or "I can't think like that" I said "it's weird to think like that" which I should have stated as "there are a lot of unknowns about the foundations of physics that might change the results of any analysis regarding the formation of the universe" or something like that. My bad for not having typed more clearly.

    I don't know about you but I'd be curious. I need to know.

    I'm the same way but I've learned to accept that my knowledge is tentative and permanently incomplete. It doesn't take much of a lesson in history to understand how one might come to those conclusions. I would say that it is exactly your "need to know" that is the compelling factor in your inability to accept the truth that about certain topics "nobody knows". As such you bullshit yourself into thinking "well the whole jesus thing is pretty plausible" and being a bright guy, can twist your observations to fit your interpretation of christianity (or whatever it is that you believe). Your only big problem is if someone who is actually as bright as YOU with reasonable communication skills questions you on the foundations of your shit. You are then faced with a dillema. You apparently just cling to your initial assumption with a death grip in the face of unwavering reasonable analysis. That would be fine if you would just admit that that is what you are doing. Of course if you did I'd ask "well why to you assume that?" and you'd say "because I do (or something like that)" and I'd say, "well, that's a shitty assumption" and we've likely have to agree to disagree (which is where this is heading I'm sure, since you cannot change your mind...).

    If you think that's wierd then you should think that Einstein is one wierd cookie for dreaming up relativity. That type of thinking is required for you to fully comprehend what the hell time is - my view. That type of thinking drives hypotheses and scientific discovery - my view. That type of thinking battles scientific 'inertia'.


    Well, since I miscommunicated my point, you've responded in a manner attempting to correct that which I did not misunderstand.

    You are right though, you definitely don't have to say anything; even the bible acknowledges that, but that stance has consequences.
    It is worth it. Either way. I know it seems presumptious. You can see it that way if you wish.

    It's not a matter of me seeing it that way. It IS, regardless of what I think.


    I can't see it that way.


    Of course not, it would interfere with your programming (which you've apparently accepted voluntarily)

    I might find it presumptious that you would think that my condition is due to some 'mind virus' or something - or that it is not a worthy stance, because in truth, you obviously can't say for sure, you can only criticize it.


    It that right? I know this sounds bad, but to the victim of the virus it's basically impossible to accept the idea of having the virus.

    About your perception. That within itself is or could be an illusion, you will look at the world in visible light and the bee will see it in ultraviolet. Dog's see it in black and white and red and green - it is assmued. You might look at a "crowd" of zebras and see zebras - lions will look and see an amalgam of stripes - so they can't isolate any to attack. Who is really seeing it as it is? You or the lion? You or the dog? You or the bee? Who are you; the human who sees zebras individually, or the lion who sees just stripes? I see the huge hole in this potential argument but hopefully you'll 'walk past it without noticing'


    I like that argument, very pretty. You've got some good points too.... but they're superfluous to the argument at hand. We're talking about an objective property of the universe, an entity. Does said entity exist. I say "the answer is currently unknowable". You say "yes, the entity exists". I say to that "you're full of shit". I believe that's the gist of the argument. I believe that implies that it doesn’t matter what the dog thinks. There IS or ISN’T a ‘god’.

    I didn't say just for sport. What if there was a girl you really loved, the next question is what logical reason you would have to love her?

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    he heh.


    I don't require a logical reason to love my wife. Of course, in terms of survival of the species I could probably dole out a few reasonable theories as to why I "love" anything in the first place, but that's a different thread. Further, what if loving my wife gives me pleasure? What if by loving her, I recieve love in return? Love gives me pleasure, thusly it is logical to love. Is that too illogical for you?

    And there was this other guy that she loved - you and him equally - you saw an opportunity to tamper with this guys car and run him off the road - and make sure he doesn't tell anybody about it - hey - then you'd get the girl. Logical don't you think?


    To a simpleton I suppose that's logical. To me, I'd find it pretty stupid. For instance to me the more logical point is as follows.... if she went with me and I'd screwed that kind that way, she'd be worse off for being with a murderous fuckard. Through my love, I want the both of us to be improved. If she were to love me though I'd killed someone for wanting that love, she would not be improved.. rather, she'd be with a murderous fuck with no self respect. Sure, it may SEEM better at first, but a love like that is doomed before conception.

    That's not the question, the question is what is preventing you from taking that persons life?

    Two things really: 1) I have empathy for the other humans, it’s emotional. Emotions affect my thoughts and resulting actions. 2) It wouldn’t be fair. I don’t like the notion of someone killing me for no reason, thusly I reciprocate.

    Why???... anyway... Holy crap!?!? Do you know that a paraphrase of that is in the Bible?!?!?!

    My point is that I reached my conclusion independently of fairy tale texts. I take personal responsibility for it because I derived it from my own mind, regardless of how many times it's been printed, I understand WHY it should. I thought about it and reached a conclusion and behave according to what I think is right. I'm no lemming, so reading it in a stupid book is just going to make me ask "why is this?". You sound as if to be saying "you could have just read that cool book and saved yourself a lot of time" and to that I say... "I'm not a lemming".

    I quoted a similar sentiment on the previous page in a post to one/a few of the apparent Christians - including myself. Have you been reading and holding out on us wes???

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    Luke 6:31; "Treat others just as you want to be treated." [Contemporary English Version] Well damn... wes?... it would seem that... according to your principles... the Bible has some use after all... LOL. Maybe you should have a read?


    No, I didn’t need that silly book to tell me how to behave.

    I guess God, or those people who "didn't even know the world was round or that gunpowder goes bang..."? were possibly as smart as you?!?... LOL.

    What does intellect have to do with being a lemming? You think since you read it in a book I should be impressed? Good boy, you can read. I’m proud of you. Let’s try “thinking” now.

    Wierdly enough, that 'poorly placed faith' provides me with the same sentiments that you seemingly have.

    Jeez from your continued objections to my argument, I wouldn’t have imagined that you’d concede so readily… but as you wish, I am worthy of your faith.

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    LMAO. Hell, maybe it's not so 'poorly placed' after all!?!

    Well, if it was in “god” and “jesus” and “the bible”, then yes… it was, because that’s all a bunch of dramatic crap to keep the lemmings from killing each other.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2003
  16. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    Wes,

    You are conveniently ignoring all my posts on Christian responsibility (or you never read them).

    People who use faith/belief/God to relinquish responsibility aren't reading the Bible.

    On the other hand, where Christians do accept responsibility, it is as part of the human race - the concept that all have sinned. The difference is that we see ourselves as being held accountable by God.

    Otherwise it would be just about yourself - What is to your own personal advantage. Any unselfishness is to your own credit. Does your responsibility stop when it doesn't suit you anymore?
     
  17. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Well, it's convenient for me not to read them because I get busy eh? Gimme a break. I didn't read them, didn't know they were there. I DID however, abandon arguing with YOU sometime back. I don't remember why exactly.
    You're saying that as a generalization right? For all cases that's an obviously incorrect statement. Second, reading the BIBLE, IMO.. IS relinquishly the responsibility to THINK FOR YOURSELF. If you have to obtain your morality from a book somewhere, philosophy might not be your specialty. IMO, intentional subjegation of one's self to fairy tales is a crime against what could have been one's good judgement.
    Yeah? I don't recognize the concept of "sin". I think it's STUPID. Just my opinion obviously, but that's what I think. IMO, it's basically "oh jeez I screwed up" or "hey, I kick ass!".
    I am accountable to ME and those I love. In order to function in society, I am further accountable to several orders of government. Subjegating one's self to your own emotional disfunction (as a resultant of your susceptibility to your meme) is a horrible mistake IMO.
    It is to my advantage to peacefully co-exist with my fellow humans.
    I'm exactly selfish, and I believe it to be to my credit. I just have a higher understanding of what selfishness really entails. I'll say it again... the more selfish I truly am.. the better off you are.
    Huh? I'm obiligated in that I'm the member of a social species. In that light I accept the responsibility of selfishness to ensure that my species, including myself.. is prosperous.
     
  18. MarcAC Curious Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,042
    Long Post

    Well the bible did not indicate anything about the earth being the centre of the universe. The creation story was told from an earthly perpective. And weren't Copernicus' fellow scientists also questioning his position based on their logical reasoning? Ptolemy was not a Christian – he proposed the heliocentric system based on his observations and reasoning. In fact there was as much evidence for the geocentric model as there was for the heliocentric model of the solar system - so any could go. The only claims science can generously debunk are those which are not corroborated in God’s word – interesting isn’t it?
    When I spoke of science and religion being mutually exclusive I meant current scientific methodology. Pleeeeaasee, alchemy became chemistry, and arguably, physics - butchery became biology – no doubt they will continue to evolve.
    Ha... ha + 1/2. Quite fummy. Well in that sense I won't disagree.
    God’s existence is independent of religion. My Bible is the Word of God. I'll tell you one thing. You can have a Bible, read it, and you will never see one utterance of the Word if God in it. You have to use God's given Spirit to guide you in interpreting what is stated.
    The infamous question. I don't. I simply aim to make you educate yourself, through God, similar to your aims where I am concerned. I aim to make you question your whole certainty about the direction in which your mind is taking you - or your 'mind virus'. I'm just here to prove the point that you can't disprove God's existence. If you read my first post on this thread and on this site, it will be something similar to this that is stated.
    I understand 'the other side' quite well. Some of my Christian friends call me 'agnostic' - after they look it up in the dictionary - because I always question things. I question everything - the Bible says you should - sadly I'm sometimes even tempted to entertain the thought of the non-existence of God - but then - I still believe He exists. It's proven to me everyday. I'll accept Him by the same token that everyone accepts anything - Faith. In fact, If I don't accept God by faith, how can I accept anything? "...He is my mighty rock, my refuge..." (Psalm 62:6-7) - in other words my anchor - my point of reference - my guide through life.
    A question wes. If you didn't believe the Sun existed would it exist? If I were to try to convince you that the Sun is not there, would I be successful? Consider me telling you that the Sun is all in your head as you telling me that God is all in my head.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Jesus is dead to you; when you can show me his bones with some sort of positive identification – sure. Therefore reason is your god it seems – but then – your ‘mind virus’ has convinced you that only reason can lead you to truth: Jesus Christ (who is not dead mind you) will lead me to truth – you cannot reasonably say the same for your reason can you? I can tell you that reason cannot define all aspects of your life. I can tell you that your faith in reason will never allow you knowledge of when or if you arrive at truth – reasonably – you have to agree – unless like me – you are unreasonable in some respects.
    I have also accepted that my knowledge is tentative and permanently incomplete - if I knew everything I'd be God. I do not believe that God's existence rests on what I think.
    That need to know also drives the human quest for knowledge. Man will never settle with the assumption nobody knows – better to say nobody knows if anybody really knows.
    Unwavering reasonable analyses. I disregard reason without my God as an anchor. Don't you get it? You can reason anything to be plausible and implausible under the same circumstance for yourself. What will you use as a term of reference? You need a constant or you will just reason in circles and every imaginable squiggly shape. That’s the problem with most branches of scientific frontiers at the moment – they can’t define anything which is constant – it is all random – thus they are tending to the possibility of everything being possible. Oh and it’s not a death grip – I’m hanging on for dear life.
    I am yet to see a reason to warrant such a change in mind - or should I say state of being. I can ask why do you have faith in reason and we’d end up going through the same stated process. Truthfully ‘s***ty assumption’ doesn’t really say anything about it – science thrives on assumption – you assume reason is your conduit to truth.
    You notice what you just said can be regarded as a U-shaped gun right? Maybe a boomerang? I quoted a similar sentiment from the Bible earlier - Jesus' words paraphrased; you can see the neutrino in me but you can't see the galaxy in you?
    Well, my argument was weak in one sense. The fact that we all possess equal abilities to experience God and know he exists. It doesn't matter what the dog thinks as it concerns God’s existence, but it has consequences as to his destiny - Hell.
    As is seen below you do. Why love her then?
    Heh heh heh... no, it's 'perfect'. So tell me, how many wives do you have? The more wives the more love the more pleasure. Right? That too logical for you? Just make sure none of them are reading when/if you post. Lol.
    Doesn't 'SEEM' better to me at all, before or after. So what if she is with a murderous etc.? How does not being with a murderous etc. improve you? Why the hell do you need improvement in the first place? What’s the reasoning behind it all? You love her – you won’t harm her – you just did in that darned competition. This is fun. Lol
    Why reciprocate? Why do unto others as you would have them do unto you? Because if you do that to them they’ll surely do the same in return? How the hell do you know that? Or is it some inner piece that you feel? Maybe a God given conscience?
    If your WHY is the rationale that people will do the same in return as I stated above – it needs to be revised. If your WHY is just that you feel better inside – I can accept that.Luke 6:31; "Treat others just as you want to be treated." [Contemporary English Version]
    Nope, you just need your God given Spirit.
    What’s a lemming? You should be impressed that the people in the book arrived at the same sentiment you did – though you were underrating their knowledge and intelligence. I don’t aim to impress anyone.

    It was interesting wes. Lata.
     
  19. enton www.truthcaster.com Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    454
    Yes, God the Maker exists, his angels exist, satan and his angels as of now are existing. The gods of God exist too.
     
  20. the preacher fur is loose 666 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    476
    enton get a life daiel's not here he's be gone since december 2002.
     
  21. draqon Banned Banned

    Messages:
    35,006
  22. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    33,264
    The more discussion about something that isn't a fact or truth, that thing becomes known to many as something to think about. The less discussion about a subject that can't be proved, the more that subject comes into everyday thinking and life. If we were all of a sudden to stop discussing any Deity there wouldn't be as much turmoil about it. I know that won't happen but it is true.
     
  23. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,135
    I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

    Not per se.
    Science and religious belief, even belief in deity, are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
    I do not believe in transcendent gods because, they are inherently impossible to prove. Transcendence is, by definition, outside of the physical world of empiricism and evidence.

    I know I can. It's a much-cherished right and liberty that I do not planning on losing any time soon, especially to fundamentalist christian theocrats.

    Scientific? No.
    Historical references? Perhaps. The only contemporary reference to Jesus is very vague, possibly a forgery, and is not very explanatory.

    Flat-out wrong.

    Again, this is a broad and vague subject. There may be some figures and occurrences which have natural, scientific explanations and historical backgrounds, but at the same time there are many which are flat-out false or made up.

    Appeal to authority. A logical fallacy.

    Again, flat-out wrong.
     

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