Give up AC to save future generations?

Suffice it to say that automation makes large swathes of employment that the previous generation considered a staple of the economy entirely unnecessary.
The internet is no exception to this and as the current generation become and the majority of the working age population their view of technology and how we interact with it will become and is becoming the dominant one.

Your view is technology is firmly rooted in your own generation, which is fine, but it is illogical to expect that same perspective to be permanent.

I can just imagine one day telling my children and grandchildren about the horrors of dial up speeds.

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None of them are supporting evidence of the claim, which is that you can get this stuff to work for people who don't know and don't care how it works, so that they can do their jobs unaided by computer pros.

You are a computer jockey by trade. Once you have access to your network, you are basically home free.

All that stuff would be nice. It would be a good idea to have it - I have never seen a workplace that does, in practice. But even with all that, the essential qualifier - "by the user" - is missing.

And that is where I think the whole scene hits a rock.

Regardless of whose fault it is, as far as I can see almost everyone who does "knowledge work" with a computer in a corporation learns the essentials via oral transmission in the presence of someone who knew what to do, the same way guildmembers learned their trades in the Middle Ages, and depends on the continuing physical presence of computer professionals to keep their system functional. And you are talking about massively complicating that interface.

 

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Who makes those "automation" machines?
Who makes the steel used in those machines?
Who digs the iron ore?
Who ships the iron ore?
Who makes those ships?
Who loads and unloads the iron ore?
Who services those "automation" machines?
What do those "automation" machines make?
And who buys what the "automation" machines make?
And where do the buyers get the money to buy what the machines make?

Supply and demand is not illogical, nor is it rooted in my own generation. It's a simple concept that's been the mainstay of civilization since man began to walk upright on the African plains. Man does not live by bread alone can just as easily be stated as ...Man does not live by technology alone. And yet you and Fraggle seem to feel that "information trading" is all that's needed. I just think "information" might not be very edible or nutritious.

Baron Max

 

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Have not read much of thread but seems to have drifted from AC question. FR and the Baron now seem to be the conflict, and I think both have their points, but think both are missing the real problem.

Yes, automation can grow our food, build our homes, entertain us, (even pick up the trash, etc.) with only a tiny fraction of the work force and is doing more so every year. Thus, more of the population will be concerned with "information processing"* but the social / economic concepts are stuck in the past. Just because few are needed to produce the consumed goods does not mean we have a social structure that can distribute them. We still have the idea expressed by John Smith in Jamestown (if memory serves me correctly. If not FR will fix it for me.) that “Those who don't work, don't eat.”

In advanced societies, to a large and growing extent, the problem is not how to produce enough for all, but how to distribute this potential, without destruction of the incentives needed for it to be made.

It will no doubt outrage the Baron but what seems to be lacking is not potential productive capacity, but more welfare “free loaders.”

For most of man's history there was a scarcity of goods, even great hunger for many; but as Dorothy of OZ said: "We are not in Kansas anymore."
We are in a land of potential abundance and do not know how to "spread it around" for social stability.
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*Many living in virtual worlds (sciforums included) or wasting their time in role playing games, etc. - many ways now exist to "kill the surplus time." I think life-long education/ learning can help do that too. I think it is part of human nature to want to feel that we are "contributors" not "leaches" in our social structures. I delude myself into justifying time spent here at sciforums by trying to correct errors (nonsense, I usually call them) when I can and think that is a "contribution"; but in truth sciforums etc. for most other entertainment IT is just a pointless game, to fill in surplus time.

 

Distribution of food and goods? No problem, Billy, just have all those "automation" machines do it.

Spreda it around? Just have those "automation" machines spread it around. No problem, Billy. Machines plant it, machines grow it, machines harvest it, and machines distribute it equally to all.

I think the Romans had the gladitorial games to entertain those free-loaders and keep them occupied. We can do the same having automation machines fight each other in huge, free arenas for the people's entertainment.

As long as the machines provide the essentials of life for the people, free of charge or labor, everything will be just wonderful ....just like the Land of Oz.

Baron Max

 

Don't forget that over 80 percent of the worlds population doesn't have electricity or clean potable water AS YET.

 

We'll just let those "automation" machines take care of that minor little detail. All we need to do is have those "information traders" sell some additional information, then they'll have enough money to build more of those "automation" machines. See? No problemo, Cosmic.

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Baron Max

 

Soon only a handful of people will have enough money to buy food let alone electronic gizzmos. :shrug:

 

No, that can't be! We'll just have those "automation" machines give out the food and goods free of charge. Those people who work from the luxury of their homes via computer and Internet would be happy to trade some more "information" so as to pay for it. No problemo, Cosmic.

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Baron Max

 

You may well be right. - That was my point. The real problem is not lack of productive potential, but inadequate social/economic structures.

 

Absolutely. And I understand that fully. But you'll notice that there is ultimately a product and an ultimate consumer ...who has the money to buy that/those products. And yet you've been trying to tell me that everyone will be "working" at home via their computer, and that there'll be no factories making consumer products!

But see, from all of your examples, there are consumers who buy those products. Now, for the really kicker in your little IT world ....where did those consumers get the money to buy that IT product?

Well, Fraggle, for your sake, I hope that "human labor" keeps working, 'cause when he's gone, you ain't got no one to buy your IT.

Huh? So there's nothing that moves? Software and data files can't move food or products along on a conveyor belt, nor make the welding machines move into proper position to weld a product. Servomotors, Fraggle!

Fraggle, I must say, honestly, that I think "Star Trek" tv shows and movies have affected your mental grasp on how things really are in the world. I don't think they've perfected the "replicators" just yet ...which seems what you're talking about ...making something from nothing!

Sorry, Fraggle, but your dreams of no more human workers is just too far out in fairy tale land for me .....and all those silly words you use won't make it any more real. You're getting dangerously close to the fairy tale worlds of Likluke!

Baron Max

 

Baron is quite right in this case. Working from home is fine, but it is predicated on a working economy, it's parasitic. It remains to be seen if it can be the basis of an economy as a primary activity. I highly doubt it. It's like the proposal that we can extract all the energy we need from garbage. While we can get some from it, we can't have an economy based on processing garbage, because we would soon run out of garbage.

 

I'm not argueing that Supply and Demand is illogical, quite the contrary in fact.

What I am saying is that as technology progresses it takes less people to do more work then could previously be achieved, technology allows production to become more efficient and in many cases become so efficient that you can effectively take humans out of the loop altogether.

As Fraggle was saying, you work less then your grand parents did but I'm guessing you make more money than they did.

 

Who makes those "automation" machines?
Who makes the steel used in those machines?
Who digs the iron ore?
Who ships the iron ore?
Who makes those ships?
Who loads and unloads the iron ore?
Who services those "automation" machines?
What do those "automation" machines make?
And who buys what the "automation" machines make?
And where do the buyers get the money to buy what the machines make?

Building homes and condos, providing food and utilities is essential to living even if no one works.
Who buildings those homes?
Who grows the food?
Who cuts the trees to make the lumber?
Who digs the clay to make bricks?
Who makes the cement for concrete?
Who digs the sand and gravel for the concrete?
How is all of that shipped to where it's needed?
Who builds the machines on which stuff is shipped?
Who builds and maintains the roads/rails on which stuff is shipped?
Who processes the raw food into edible products?
Who raises the cattle?
Who butchers the cattle for the meat?
How is all that meat shipped to the consumers who are lying around on their asses doing nothing but playing on their computers?
How is that meat distributed to the consumers?
Who maintains the machines that do all the work?
Who maintains the utility lines and pipes?
Who works in the sewers when there's problems?
Who works in the power plants to make sure that the nukes don't go 'BOOM'?
Where does the uranium come from to make fuel for the generators?
And the list goes on and on.

"Second Life"? What's that? ...a computer game? How much money does he make playing on his computer and pretending to make clothes? Who buys his pretend clothes?

Fraggle, I think you're being seduced by some computerized "world" where everything is done with the flick of a button. Fraggle, that life is only possible when one already has the money to pay for everything he needs in the REAL world. The "pretend world" is for entertainment.

You've lost sight of the real world, Fraggle. Perhaps you should get some professional help.

Baron Max

 

Who makes the machines that do the work?
Where did the steel come from to make the machines?
How was that iron ore processed into steel?
How was the iron ore shipped?
Who built the ships?

And the list goes on and on. Humans aren't taken OUT of the equation, they're just transferred to other types of work.

People here need to take a lot closer look at the real world around them. Who bakes the bread? Who delivers the food? Who cleans up the garbage?

Baron Max

 

... I don't get it?
You all seemed so concerned quick little patch fixes and such. No AC? No electricity?
the whole problem of global warming and over dependence on electricity, I think, stems from ignorance. I see you guys talking about the "youngster generation", and how they are adapting. Well, you can teach a dog to speak, but all the dog understands is that he's rewarded for doing it.
Basically
I think that right now "green, sustainable energy" are just trendy. People see a problem, and immediatley they just try to come up with all these little solutions, maybe hoping they will make a difference. But it won't if the world keeps going like it does.
I am 17, a senior in high school.
The kids I'm surrounded with are extremely under-educated on just about everything.
I think you should be taking your minds OFF these quick fixes and turn more towards EDUCATING THE YOUTH.
I personally know hundreds of people (maybe that's a little bit of an exaggeration) that voted for Obama just because he was the fad.
We can't have that happening.
We need to make sure that the youth knows EXACTLY what their deciding on.
American companies consumed with the prospect of riches still market to us all these great things, Like ipods, gameboys, sodas, basically anything a normal teenager likes.
But they're not telling us how those things come about, how they work, or waht happens when you're done with them.
It seems that my generation is passive to anything that happens beyond their immediate life. They throw a bottle into a river, thinking nothign of it.
They leave garbage on tables at parks, expecting a park custodian to come and clean it.
They smoke ciggarettes like Civil War veterans and dont think twice about the reprecussions. America has catered to an extravagent affordable life, which seems to make children think they're better than the world, and the world is working just for them,
otherwise they would know about the consequences of what is happening.

If anything, attention needs to be turned towards the school system, because that is where our future starts, and we need to enlighten these children on the facts of life, or they're gonna grow up to sue you just because you stepped on THEIR grass.



but then im probably wrong in thinking so.

 

And what is that, exactly? And who is to decide what's important?

Facts of life? What are they? And who decides what to "enlighten" these little bastards about?

Or are you thinking that YOU are the "One" to lead humanity out of the dark ages and into "enlightenment"?

Baron Max

 

Baron, I think you have gotten a very wrong impression of me.
I by no means place myself above anyone, and I know that in no way I can influence anyone.
I'm just saying that we need to make sure these children know the FACTS.
FACTS.
FACTS
ARE
FACTS.
Say for instance
My school was handing out Anti-Marijuana Pamphlets.
In these pamphlets, marijuana was shot down and it was full of only myths and no real facts at all.
Propaganda, basically.
So now there's all these kids
Runnning around
"OMG MARIJUANA KILLS YOUR BRAIN CELLS"
when in fact
marijuana has been shown help stiumlate the growth of NEW brain cells
making it a possible treatment for ALZHEIMERS.

Now, do you think it's right that people can tell these kids all these myths but no facts?

that's all I'm saying.
If we would have known CFC's would kill our planet, we wouldn't have used them.