Lori, All anyone did was point out the obvious, Lori. You show signs of being bisexual. Personally, I could care less if you were. It's just the fact that everything you have said describes that of being bisexual. Yeah, someone is in denial alright. Which is maybe the reason why you have such a hard time understanding why Searcher would NOT want to have "fun" sex with Catherine Zeta-Jones. [This message has been edited by Flash (edited February 07, 2000).]
EVERYONE, WHEN THEY ARE HONEST WITH THEMSELVES AND IN THEIR MINDS, LOSE ALL OF THE PARADIGMS UNDER WHICH THEY CHOOSE TO OPERATE, SHOW SIGNS OF BEING LABELLED BISEXUAL. I AM NOT A LABEL, I AM A WOMAN. THE ONLY REASON, YES THE ONLY REASON THAT SEARCHER DOESN'T THINK IT'D BE FUN TO HAVE SEX WITH A WOMAN IS BECAUSE HER MIND SET, BEING HER EXISTING PARADIGMS CONCERNING HER SELF AND HER SEXUALITY HAVE NOT ALLOWED HER TO. BUT IT IS A FACT, YES A COLD HARD FACT, THE IF SHE WERE TO OPEN UP HER MIND TO THE POSSIBILITY AND GO INTO THE SITUATION ITSELF WITH AN OPEN MIND AND A GOOD PERSPECTIVE REGARDING THE ACT, THAT SHE WOULD INDEED ENJOY HERSELF JUST AS MUCH AS ANYONE ELSE, MAN OR WOMAN, LABEL OR NO LABEL. DOES ANYONE UNDERSTAND ME AT ALL??????????? DOES ANYONE CARE TO EVEN TRY???????????? PLEASE TRY, I'M SO MENTALLY BORED!!!!!! ------------------ "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!" I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
Lori, I hope you aren't feeling like it's you against the world in this topic. I understand where you are coming from... Do you remember my position concerning sexual relations between men and women who are married? However, I also believe that there is a difference in how homosexuality is being perceived here. You seem to be defining sexuality by the sexual "acts" which people participate in. I disagree with your approach. Others have explained that sexuality exists innately in individuals before they ever participate in a sexual "act." I happen to agree with that. What do you say about someone who has taken a vow of celibacy, who claims to be either heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual and who has never actually participated in such sexual "acts"? How about a heterosexual who participates briefly in homosexual encounters out of curiosity or to dabble in what they might consider to be deviant behavior? Is their sexuality now defined as homosexual or bisexual? Or, are they still heterosexual by nature? Lastly, what do you say about someone who denies their homosexuality or bisexuality and lives a heterosexual lifestyle out of fear or shame? Are they not still truly homosexual?
Mentally warped is more like it Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! LMAO Keep talking loudly, Lori...ya just might really convince yourself that you aren't Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Flash, Listen, I know that you're not TRYING to hurt my feelings, but what you just posted is very derrogatory, and brings a tear to my eyes, and I'm not kidding. I don't know why I'm surprised...I'm sitting here absolutely BEGGING you to open up your mind a little bit and TRY to understand what I'm saying, and you just flippantly slap some stupid arbitrary label on me and laugh. Well, that may very well be the way you treat yourself, but I would appreciate it VERY, VERY much if you DON'T include me in you close-minded paradigms, cause I refuse to be labeled. I'm a person, and my gender is female. PERIOD. Just because you CHOOSE to DEFINE yourself by your sexuality doesn't mean that I have to. It makes NO SENSE to my brain. I'm sorry, but it's just horse-shit. TS, ??? OF COURSE I do, because as usual, it is that way, as it usually is, and I'm kind of getting used to it. Is it frustrating? Yes. Does it make me sad sometimes? Yes. Does that matter? No. Ok, yes sexuality has a different definition than sexual intercourse or sexual acts???? I do not believe that a person's sexuality is simply innate. I think that is a big fat generalistic reduction that enables one to virtually blow off the attempt to give this whole topic rational thought. Yes, people precurse sexual "acts" with sexual "beliefs" or "thoughts" that they entertain in their heads. If they CHOOSE to entertain thoughts of themselves in a sexual relationship with a member of the same sex, then they very well can, and yes, I think that everyone resides somewhere along some hormonal (genetic) spectrum that may influence their propensity to engage in such thoughts or have such desires, but I honestly think that they ONLY reason that most of us, gay or straight (and I totally cringe at using those labels) believes it to be such a STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION to entertain these thoughts, is because of the paradigms that we have regarding ourselves in our minds, that usually DO NOT reflect the 100% honest truth. For example, if I were to CHOOSE to sit around and gaze into some girls eyes and have thoughts of a romantic relationship with her, and all of the positive rationalizations of it that I could dream up (and I think it's safe to say with the shit I've been through with men, that's not much of a stretch), that I very well could. And I also think, that while it may be a little awkward or strange to me in my mind at first, that if I were to mentally acclimate myself to the possibility, that it would of course become more "acceptable" to me or more "familiar" to me. I would say that regardless of their actual activity, that they CHOOSE to entertain homo, hetero, or bisexual thoughts in their heads. So? *shrug* ??? I think that you may have answered your own question here..."dabble in what they might consider to be deviant behavior"...that's where the answer lies TS, in our perceptions. They CHOOSE to label it as deviant behaviour. Why? Because they CHOOSE to label it as such, and for no other reason. Well, for one, I don't think that ANYONE should EVER do ANYTHING out of fear or shame. Two, I don't know how else to say this, so I'm going to just say it over and over again until someone CHOOSES to understand....I believe that the LABELS that you speak of are arbitrary and bogus. Given that, it makes it kind of hard to answer this question, but I'll try anyway, because I SURE DO APPRECIATE YOU TRYING TO UNDERSTAND ME. IT MEANS AN AWFUL LOT TO ME. SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH AND I MEAN IT. I think that EVERYONE CAN harbor thoughts of lots of a variety of sexual desires, and if there wasn't a God, then my answer would be "do anything that feels good", "anything goes". I mean if there isn't a God, then personally, I think it would be a lot of fun, and I mean physically pleasurable, to dive head first into a massive orgy, and come out 48 orgasms later needin' a mouthwash, douche, enima, and a squeegy to clean up. BUT, there is a God. We KNOW Him, right? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Thank you Jesus. And we are well aware through His Word, and through the Holy Spirit, that God gives us EVERYTHING to serve some divine purpose. That purpose is what we should ALL be concerned with understanding. Um...you guys, I've been thinking of trying to become a preacher or have some type of ministry, or maybe going to school for theology or something along those lines. What do you guys think? Do you think I'd make a good preacher? LMAO! It makes me laugh, for the same reasons that I'm sure it does you. But seriously, I know that I would have to TOTALLY put an ix-na on the otty-pa outh-ma, but beside that???? Just thought I'd ask for funsies. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!" I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick. [This message has been edited by Lori (edited February 07, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Lori (edited February 07, 2000).]
Lori, Look...I never meant to hurt your feelings at all. How many times have you put things in my face though, saying I'm not facing reality etc... a whole lot. Did you even read any of the scriptures and explanations which I posted regarding homosexuality? If so..why do you choose to ignore those and still imply that it is wrong? Further, just because one is gay or bisexual doesn't mean that they hold sex above everything...I mean..gee, Lori.
Flash, Touche. I shouldn't be so sensitive. Maybe I'm being a big pussy. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Listen Flash, I know you pretty damn well, and let's make no bones about it, you define yourself by your sexuality, right? I don't. I don't think it's all that rational. I'm sorry, it's not intended to be a put-down, I'm guilty of doing it to myself for a large part of my life, but instead of defining myself as a lesbian, I defined myself as a slut. Why? Cause that's the way other people see me. Why? Cause God happened to make me look like a that Barbie-doll that I was talking about. Do men see me as a sex object and nothing more? Yes. Do women see me that way too, gay and straight? Yes. Why? Because of society's labels that's why. Now do you see why I have a problem with them? If I were to give in to my own "cross to bear", I would be a stripper or a prostitue (a very wealthy one at that) or a porno actress. That's just the way life is. I don't like labels. It's funny, that when a man is actually FORCED in some circumstance to really get to know me....you can just see by the look on his face, all of the neurons and synapses misfiring in his head every time I open my mouth and say something intelligent...for that matter, say almost anything besides "hey big daddy, want me to sit on your lap?" I have to try real, real hard not to let that make me hard and cynical. Actually, if I keep the right perspective about it, it can be quite funny and entertaining. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Um, what I think is this...that the ONLY reason that you are not attracted to Brad Pitt is because one, he is a man, and two, you have defined yourself in your mind to be a lesbian, and a close-minded one at that. I mean, we've discussed this at length, and every time a man is even mentioned in a sexual way, you act like it's sickening and IMPOSSIBLE TO IMAGINE AS ENJOYABLE, and yes, I think that is weird, even for a woman who likes to have sex with women. For example, not too long ago, just in a "girl-friend" kind of way, so that we could kind of goo-goo and ga-ga over something in common, I suggested that you rent and watch my favorite porno movie "The 1968 Elvis Come-back TV Special". YOU FUCKING FREAKED ON ME! I mean you absolutely LOST IT on me!!!! Now, what the fuck is THAT all about, huh? All I was suggesting is that you try to perform some little simple mental exercise regarding some TOTALLY HOT member of the opposite sex, and you TOTALLY FREAKED. I mean, I even thought it might be fun for you and your "partner" to try it together, and then get all worked up and have a good time. See? That's just how my mind works, and you don't understand me at all sometimes. And suffice it to say that regarding this topic, I don't understand your views at all. And not for lack of trying either. ------------------ "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!" I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick. [This message has been edited by Lori (edited February 07, 2000).]
You know guys, it just occurred to me, thinking of why it is that we don't tend to understand each others thinking, that I think it's something like this....I'm the kind of person who views life and it's meaning as if it's a mathematical equation or a scientific principle. Most of you I think are the kind of people who view life and it's meaning as some kind of subjective, interpretive, fluffy piece of poetry. See, I didn't do all that well with poetry in school. I was always like, "Well how in the hell do YOU know that's what this guy meant when he wrote that? Because unless he blatently came out and explicitly stated that that is indeed the correct interpretation of this poem, then I can think of about 100 TOTALLY DIFFERENT interpretations just off the top of my head." My teachers just loved me. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Let's just say it's a good thing I'm cute and I smile a lot, or it could have been really bad. LOL! Needless to say my English grade would always temporarily drop a bit when we were covering poetry, but I always brought it right back up to a 5 point A with a research paper or two. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I hope that helps some. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!" I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
Flash-- On the one hand, I must thank you for your confidence in the members of this forum. To the other (unless I'm utterly presumptuous), I would hope you could accept my thanks and congratulations in the context that I long for a world in which announcements of one's sexuality no longer require thanks, congratulations, or otherwise. But that all looks to a larger point that's the same I have with racism or sexism. (The persona I have become acquainted with through this board has not changed an iota.) But, since I'm rambling myself into a quagmire, I'll stop here. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! * * * * * Lori-- Just a quick comment; I quote thee: * "Listen Flash, I know you pretty damn well, and let's make no bones about it, you define yourself by your sexuality, right?" Obviously, I cannot speak for Flash as an individual. However, in general, I would say that most gays & lesbians "define [themselves] by [their] sexuality" inasmuch as, say, you do. In other words, it's only an identity when it comes up. * People going out to clubs: when I go out to see a concert or just get flat drunk, I notice that there are a number of people who are dressed "to kill", or otherwise gussied up to impress. Is a heterosexual woman dressed up at a heavy-metal show identifying herself by her sexuality any more or less than the two queers in the corner wearing white belts over beige jeans? (That one was a weird trend in Portland for a while.) * Political seasons: gays and lesbians identify their sexuality when it's directly challenged; when I lived in Oregon, I would often hear (and I sh_t you not that this is true), "It's not that I have a problem with someone being gay, it's just that they're always out in the streets trying to tell me how glorious it is." I always asked: Gee, do you think they'd be protesting in the streets if we weren't about to vote on whether we can fire them for who they sleep with? or evict them? or deny them access to public property? It works with other perceived deviances, too. After all, religious people threatened to blow up movie theatres showing The Last Temptation of Christ; we also heard the "It's not that I have a problem with witches, but ...." Gee, you protested Last Temptation and you don't know why people are upset about Hocus Pocus? (I actually know several people who took those stances.) * Media/art: Basic Instinct would have gone by the wayside if it weren't for Sharon Stone's "caught unaware". And even that would have blown over except suddenly it was "Bi-fever" .... Is Basic Instinct a bad movie (my opinion) because it's a bisexual film, or because it was just a bad movie? Yet we argue about whether we should show bisexualism or homosexuality in theatres, and then wonder why so many people stand up and say, "I'm gay, and I'll be damned if you're gonna say I can't see this movie." Every time you: * Vote on a sexuality-specific ballot measure, * say, "I have a lot of gay friends who ....", * dress for vanity, * essentially, mention who you would/not sleep with you are identifying yourself by your sexuality. If it seems that other people identify themselves solely by their sexuality, I would ask at what points in their life you have encountered them; what are the extenuating circumstances? Look at your neighbor across the street. How does your interrelationship with this person change if you discover or are told that this person is homosexual? Look at ten people you know to be heterosexual; one of them, statistically speaking, should be gay. (Yes, I know about lies, damned lies, and statistics, but it's just an illustration to the point.) Which one is gay? Does it matter? (Why should it matter?) If Flash--as the current example goes--is an accountant, and spends much time buried in the materials of her work, someone who knows her from that aspect might think she was identifying herself by the amount of money she makes for herself, or moves for her company ... or something like that. For the amount of pot I smoke, I'm surprised so few people have accused me of identifying myself by my drug habits; of course, that might be because, by the same standard, so would most of the people who would know enough about my consumption to begin saying those things. But I'm hoping you get the point. If we were talking about nuclear physics, and we were identifying ourselves by our relationship to a theory ... * I have a Nuclear Physics degree .... * I read about that theory at Exosci Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! * I remember when my Dad was doing fission reaction chains at Los Alamos .... * I baked sugar cookies last week using Sweet & Low, and you can't tell the difference. Now, even I'll admit a more-than-casual relationship between sugar cookies and the processes of the sun ... but, in general, which of the above doesn't fit? Are the other three people "identifying themselves" by their nuclear physics? Sure, some homosexuals are flamboyant about their sexuality, but how is that any different from the village slut, or Boy-Toy George? People generally only identify themselves by specific criteria because they've been asked to. thanx, Tiassa ------------------ Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
Lori, I believe I understand where you're coming from. Labels aside: Speaking from my own human experience, I do NOT believe that people "choose" the gender(s) or the type(s) of bodies, minds and souls that they are attracted to... I think that attraction factor(s) come "naturally" to each individual. That is, an individual is "naturally" attracted to (or NOT attracted to) certain attributes in other individuals. Someone cannot simply "choose" to be attracted to the opposite gender if it is not their "natural" state. Yes, Jesus gave us laws for marriage between a man and a woman and laws concerning abiding by the sacred marriage vows. He preached against adultery and divorce after such vows are taken. He also preached against lusting for another's spouse. Although Jesus preached that marriage between man and woman was the "ideal" He also taught that there were some who were not capable of marriage. One of the reasons He stated was because some people were born incapable of marriage. He indicated that whoever of these "could" accept celibacy "should" take the vow of celibacy but He also told the disciples that celibacy would not be possible for everyone. Jesus' teachings focused on living in right relationships through love. Jesus taught that even a prostitute who was righteous would enter heaven while a priest who was not righteous would not (the righteousness that He spoke of had nothing to do with their sexuality, marriage or celibacy - it had to do with love of one's fellow man). Jesus also explained that when we rise from the dead, we are neither married nor given in marriage to anyone. *Sigh* We can disagree about this 'til doomsday, Lori... What I believe it comes down to is this, on which I'm sure we both agree: Yes, we have been given many divine gifts. The most important gift that we have been given, however, is the divine gift of salvation for the living through Jesus Christ. "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned." Peace.
Tiassa, I think we may have just had a break-through. I'm pretty sure I agree with everything you just posted, and I like a little nip of the wacky-weed myself. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Eureka! *falling off chair* *back up now* I just don't believe that people SHOULD necessarily define themselves or others by their sexuality, just like I said like over and over....and yea, people do that with lots of things all the time, but you'd have to agree with me that their perceptions may not and often do not reflect the truth, and may serve to limit them in their thinking and options and possibilities in life regarding everything. I'm just saying that I'm all about total honesty, whatever that may be. For example, to put it in a different light...math and science and do they call that left-brained stuff?...have always been very very easy for me. I used to smoke a lot more of the stuff back in college, and I took the entire class stoned and got A's right? So, I think that I've been kind of lazy about using these things to define who I am. Now I don't like my job cause it's boring!!! I shouldn't be surprised. I've been operating under one of my own paradigms as well for a long time that's caused me problems, and that is that men can't be trusted. I know that it's been a big part of who I am and the choices I've made and the problems I've had. And guess what? I made the whole thing up, due to my particular circumstance in life. Yes, it's true that a lot of men can't be trusted, but it's not true that all of them can't, and it's not true that I should just avoid trying to find one who can. I think that's kind of a cop out, don't you? Well now, here I am at 32, no kids (that I haven't killed) yet, staring at a divorce, and a really good job that I can't stand. Yea, I'm independent all right, and I'm alone too. Do you know what I really want? To be loved, to be a wife, and to be a mother. It's funny because even when I was very little, and growing up, other girls were always thinking and pretending and actually planning to be wives and mothers. I always kind of thought it was strange that I really never pictured myself that way. I was always too pumped up about my latest scholastic achievement or new job or promotion, the house I bought myself, whatever. I always kind of thought of men, unfortunately, in the same way that a lot of men think of women; as sex objects. Believe me, that hasn't done me any favors. Oh yea, and I was the big haired metal chick dressed to the hilt for a concert. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Funny, funny, you just gotta laugh. I went to see Metallica maybe two years ago, like for the 10th time or something, and it struck me so hard during this one song called "Creeping Death". It's a song about a plague. Anyway, there's this part where the lyrics are "Die! Die!" a few times over, and everyone is singing along with fists in air, and I'm looking around thinking, "Damnit, I can't deny it any longer. I'm too old to be here!" Oh well! ------------------ "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!" I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick. [This message has been edited by Lori (edited February 07, 2000).]
TS, I guess it all boils down to...you tend to think of it as an inherent trait that one is at the mercy of, and I think that it always comes down to a consious choice. I think that we are certainly all at the mercy of our own genetics and hormones, and like I said, we're all somewhere on that spectrum. I think that there are also a lot, and I mean a lot of environmental circumstances that come into play as well. I've known a lesbian that flat out told me that the only reason she was one was because she had been in a very physically abusive marriage and was just plain scared to death of men. I know it's not always that cut and dry. I know that you guys think I'm oversimplifying things here. But when you truly look at my faith, it boils down to something that is best described as an ideal and sinless state of existence that we should all strive to achieve, even though right now for us, we won't get there until we pass on. I'm not saying that there aren't homosexual relationships that aren't more healthy and strong and monogamous or loving or trusting or whatever than heterosexual ones. It's just that with anything, with any decision that you're trying to make, the more variables that you factor into the equation, the greater the set of possible answers. And you know, when you look at the laws of the OT and the NT, that's not what I get the impression of our faith to be about. Is it about tolerance, forgiveness, mercy, respect, love? Yes. But it is about relativity? No, it's not. The way that I think about it is kind of like this. Maybe because of my genetics, and I know that partly because of my parental influence, I can get "wrathful" in my anger. I think that everyone can to one degree or another, but I seem to be pretty bad about turning into somebody's worst nightmare. And you know, as far as I can tell, there have been some people in this world that have absolutely pushed me to the limits with the meanness, BUT I honestly believe that acting out in anger is NEVER the IDEALLY CORRECT way to behave, regardless of a hormonal predisposition, or your drill sargent father, or what assinine cruel thing the big fat meanie did to piss you off, it's STILL NOT RIGHT TO ACT OUT IN ANGER. And yes, I think that some people have more of a NATURAL PROPENSITY to act out in anger, and it may be more of a struggle in life for them because of it, but I honestly think that all that means is that they have to try harder regarding this particular thing. And I also know that if they were to pray to God in Jesus name to help them, that He most certainly would. He helps me, and you guys see what a freak I am. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! By the way TS, are you keeping your sense of humor??? *fingers crossed* ------------------ "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!" I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
Am I keeping my sense of humor? Well, yeah, sure... You should have seen me laughing when I got to the latter part of your last post... I'm sitting here laughing and thinking... Is she saying what I think she's saying??? You've gotta be kidding me???!!! I'm sorry, Lori, I don't mean any offense... I just found what you said to be hysterical. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Do you seriously believe that anyone who engages in non-heterosexual activity is acting out of anger. Please... say it ain't so! ROTFLMHO!!!
Lori-- You're never too old for Metallica. I actually wish I could have appreciated that band more when Cliff Burton was alive & playing. As a result, I've never seen 'em live, and the Gods of Metal are now ... I don't know what, but they're doing Whiskey in the Jar, which sounds pretty good if your name's not Metallica, and making videos with Anton Corbjin, which disappoints me greatly. (When I see a film called "Barbarella, Queen of the Universe," I expect loin-clad blonde bimbos and lots of leg; when I see a band called "Metallica", I expect heavy music, not chic-heroin art statements.) But I digress .... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! But you're never too old for Rock and Roll. And if you ever think you're "too old" to be here, just comfort yourself that the whipper-snappers are "too young" to fully appreciate what they're seeing. Okay, since I have nothing on-topic, as such, I should be clearing out of this corner. thanx, Tiassa ------------------ Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
TS, Oh no! No, I was just using the anger thing as an analogy!!! I'm sure that most homosexual relationships are based on the same things that heterosexual ones are, and there can be a bevy of differents things to base said relationship on regardless. Well, I'm very glad to see you're still laughing. *BG* I know that I can be an antagonist and a little exagerated sometimes. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!" I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
Lori, Phew!!! Thanks for clearing that up! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Anyway, back to the first part of your last post: Maybe you can see it as a conscious "choice" because you are not only attracted to one gender and you have the option of making a conscious choice? Given what you've explained previously, maybe you are naturally attracted to the act of "sex" rather than a specific gender? And, in your relationship with Jesus Christ/God you know that you must make a choice - within the "ideal" of marriage which was taught because you have that option. If that's the case, then that works for you... "relative" to your natural sexuality. What about the person who is only attracted to one gender? Take myself, for example... I don't have a natural "choice" because I am only sexually attracted to one gender. What if my natural "one gender" attraction happened to be that of the same sex? Do you believe that I "must" then take a vow of celibacy? I don't think so. I think that in this case, sexuality IS relative since celibacy might be the way for some to go in their relationship with Jesus Christ if they are only attracted to the same gender. However, I do not think that celibacy is an absolute law for those who are ONLY attracted to the same sex because, first, vows must be taken willingly (not forced) and, second, Jesus Christ explained that "neither" marriage nor celibacy is for everyone. Salvation is for everyone.
Lori, I'm sorry if these "labels" offend you. I understand exactly what you mean; I was equally offended when, upon arriving in America, I was immediately classified as "Caucasian". What?! I said, I'm not from the Caucasus! I'm Russian, and my family background is Jewish, and I am not pledging allegiance to any nationality other than American! But no matter; I've been a "caucasian" ever since... I still feel strongly about the practice of labeling people according to race or heritage; it's a bit like labeling cattle. I guess America still hasn't gotten past its racist roots. And by now, I'm digressing... There is nothing pleasant about labels. But in this case, it is not just a matter of slapping on labels. What I, at least, was trying to tell you, is that your perspective does not equal the perspective of everyone else. You seem to be under a rather naiive assumption that everybody thinks and feels the same way you do, only they are not being honest with themselves. Well, that is just not the case! Do you know what goes through the mind of a serial killer as he stalks his next prey? Do you know what it feels like to free-float in space? Do you know what it feels like to give birth to septuplets? Of course you don't. You can't possibly! You can't even pretend to imagine what any of these things are like. The same goes for other people's sexuality. It is YOU who is being overly simplistic in assuming that all people are hooked up in the same way (i.e., like you.) There is much more diversity in the human psyche than you seem ready to acknowledge. ------------------ I am; therefore I think.
TS, Uh, no not exactly. I do think that it's pretty clear in my faith that you should either be married or celibate, but I don't think that necessarily has anything to do with who it is you're attracted to and why. Quite honestly, I think that people who say that they are naturally and inherently (magically) limited in their capability to be attracted to one particular thing for one particular reason is full of crap. There are many reasons to be attracted to someone as a sex partner aside and regardless of gender. I just think that for crying out loud, can't ANYTHING be a given? I am a firm believer TS, that if let's say you didn't physically look as "girlie" as you do now, or maybe had a smidge more testosterone than the average woman, and maybe if you didn't fit in in school with all of us cliquey-prissy-stuck up girls, or maybe you're dad or some male influence did a real number on you, or geez, I could go on and on with such a wide description of variables to throw in the mix I could go on for pages. Anyway, say that for a lot of reasons, and legitimate reasons ok, you were to THINK about women in a different way. You began to open your mind to a woman being a sex partner for you. I'm telling you TS, if the circumstance was right, you would have absolutely no problemo. It's NOT inherent. I mean EVERYTHING is inherent to one degree or another, but in this case, unless you're a morphodite, the line is drawn pretty clear. I think that MoonCat's friend probably did fantisize about her but probably just wouldn't admit it. It seems to take a lot of "talking yourself into" to be a homosexual, and that makes sense to me, but I also think that leads to an improper paradigm to exist in said homosexual's mind. That being that it can be no other way. We all know, especially us women, that what goes on in your HEAD determines a lot of what goes on in your body. If you continually say to yourself "It's impossible for me to be with a woman, or a man", then it's entirely possible that you'll talk yourself right into it. I also think that if MoonCat's friend had set his paradigm aside for a while and CHOSE to see MoonCat in a different light, he would have been one happy, and well taken care of man. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! And TS, it's not that I think of sex as some exercise and don't attribute any emotional feelings with it either. I think that's a sin too. But, I do think that sex and love are totally non-dependent upon one another. Is sex better when you're thinking happy thoughts? Yes, it definately is. But what those happy thoughts consist of may be entirely relative. How about throwing another log on the fire here, by pointing out that Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed. The whole paradigm about physical beauty and sexuality and physical attraction takes on a whole new meaning when you think about this aspect. Apparently in the garden, people could walk around totally naked and no one had any lustful or adulterous thoughts. Interesting huh? I just don't think that sex is supposed to be about what someone looks like or some physical attribute, even gender. Like I said, gender is just a given in my mind. I honestly think that homosexuals and heterosexuals alike that think that it's impossible for them to have a relationship with a different gender than what they're used to are all having a big head trip. I think it's nonsense, and I think it's all subjective to a whole host of variables that couldn't possibly be covered here, but it's definately safe to say that it's not inherent and magical. *poof* ------------------ "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!" I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
Ok guys, I'm really trying here, are you trying to tell me that you think it's possible for a person to be genetically "programmed" so to speak in such a way that it is impossible for them to have a romantic, loving, or sexual relationship with someone of the same or opposite sex? I think that's total bullshit, sorry. Absolute hog-wash. I mean are you trying to say that some people just can't say I love a man, or I love a woman. I can say both. I try to love everyone the same, now that isn't realistic in practice due to proximity and circumstance, but it is in theory. The only thing that makes love romantic is the sex! So are you then saying that it's genetically possible that some people are not capable of enjoying sex with a man or a woman? Bullshit, I think that we've covered that. It's all one big head trip. These are the facts...women have certain traits that make them sexually attractive, and I don't think it's possible for a man or a woman to be "born blind" to that. Men have certain traits that make them sexually attractive, and I don't think it's possible for a man or a woman to be "born blind" to that. But here's the thing...I think that those very traits are what is supposed to be shared between men and women. I think it's important. Like in the grand scheme of things. I don't just think it's arbitrary. I think it serves a very important purpose if we let it and if we all behave ourselves and have pure intentions towards one another in our relationships. It's like ying and yang you know? Ying ying and yang yang I think are not just futile, but in some way actually detrimental in the grand scheme of things, as are plenty of other things (and they're all deemed sinful, it's all very complicated, intertwined, and large, as someone put it). I think that what happens when a man and a woman do come together within the purest of intentions, it IS MAGIC. And that's appropriate when you consider the potential natural response to such a union. So Flash, Are you saying that it's IMPOSSIBLE for you to love a man? Are you saying that it's IMPOSSIBLE for you to enjoy having sex with a man? Are you saying that it's IMPOSSIBLE for you to cohabitate with a man? What? And/or why? Help me here. Are you saying that you think this is because of some genetic disposition????? I'm sorry, but that is just way too far of a stretch to me. I just do NOT understand. I swear, I'm really trying too. Please explain. Well, actually, if you don't want to explain, that's fine too since this is all very personal, but if you do, that would be great. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!" I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
And I just thought of something else. Do you know how back in the Old Roman Empire, sexual practices were EXTREMELY liberal, and a lot of that practice was homosexual in nature? Do you know why that was? Well, for a fact, it was NOT because of some genetic predispostioning. It was because it was common and totally acceptible in that society to view sex as an act of power and dominance. It didn't matter so much what gender a person was, what mattered most was who was on the giving (submissive) end, and who was on the receiving (dominant) end. And no, I don't think that power and control are supposed to be what sex is about either. But do you see how one's perceptions regarding sex change all the rules? And do you see just how subjective our own perceptions are? I do. ------------------ "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!" I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
