You were being fed only the Palestinian side of the story? Where do you live? Until I started digging into independent media sources, I had no idea at all what the Palestinian side of the story was. What were your sources then? And what are your sources now? I would be interested to know of sources that obviate even historical assessments of IDF archives, the UN and the British services. Could you provide some references? And up until Israel created Hamas in the 1980s, the main Palestianian representatives were all secular or communist. So I highly doubt it would have made any difference. In fact, orthodox Jews still protest against a state.
We, as far as i can tell, are not living in the middle ages. What war to save the Gods? And what possible chance is their for Communists to have any power in India? We have the Communist party in U.S too...As far as i know.
Then you are a Johnny come lately to the issue, I have been aware of the Arabs side of the issues since 1960. There is no such thing as a secular Moslem, Islam and Sharia, assures that, and you are living proof of that. The Satmar and Neturie Karta, are a Jewish fringe sects that don't support the state of Israel, because they believe that the Messiah can't come unless there is no state of Israel.
I live in Canada. In school we were taught that Israel was created in order to give a home to the victims of the Holocaust. We were never told that there were already jews living in Israel; not in Jerusalem, where they formed a majority even in 19th century, nor in the lands the jews purchased, settled and reclaimed from diseased, uninhabitable swampland and desert. We were taught that Israel invaded Egypt during the 1956 Suez Canal crisis, which I believe is true, but we weren't taught that Egypt had been staging repeated attacks on Israel's border prior to that. We were taught that Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, but not that Arafat's PLO was using Lebanon as a base to stage repeated raids into Israel. We were taught that the arabs were responsible for starting the 1967 war, but we were also taught that this war was started in an attempt to correct a previous injustice. In short, we were given a one-sided narrative that Israel was a big bad bully armed to the teeth with American weapons, while all their enemies were weak, starving villagers who were all forced off their lands without any prior provocations. The only defense given to Israel's side of the story was that the jews needed a place to recover from the Holocaust, and therefore we should seek to find an accomodation between the two sides instead of rewinding the whole mess. Seeing the types of people violently protesting for Israel's delegitimization- the same types of people who wear clothes made in Bangladeshi sweatshops while they throw Molotov cocktails to protest free trade agreements- made me realize that the Canadian left was more interested in finding a scapegoat for their collective colonial guilt than in finding out all the facts about the M.E. conflict. Until they start analyzing both sides of the story instead of arbitrarily dismissing one side as a pack of jewish lies, I will not dare support their delusional cause. A recent example of this infantile anti-Israeli behaviour occurred during the recent Lebanon war, when Hezbollah flags were marched down Montreal's St. Denis street, and protesters who were calling for peace on both sides were assaulted by violent muslim immigrants. There are many more examples of this, and it pisses me off. I'm glad our government took a sensible approach and stood up to these ingrates. As for sources on the M.E. conflict, I have many. I check arab news sites, I check Israeli news sites, I read the local papers, watch various news networks, and I know lots of jews, Israelis, muslims and Palestinians, so I get a lot of different accounts. I've learned more about the Israeli side of the story by looking into Palestinian claims than I ever did from the Israelis. That's why I know as much as I do now about the region. Israel didn't create Hamas, Egypt did. Israel's mistake was to support the rise of Hamas because they thought it would concentrate on fighting the PLO. In any case I wouldn't be surprised to see Israel eventually negotiating with Hamas and Hezbollah the same way they used to with Arafat. At least then they'd be negotiating with people actually born in Palestine, instead of Egyptian-born arabs faking their Palestinian citizenship like Arafat. Orthodox jews protest against the Israeli state because it's too free and democratic. They're waiting for the messiah to return so they can have a dictatorial jewish monarchy in Israel, and they support the Palestinian cause because they figure the messiah will force them all to convert to judaism when he returns. From what I've heard, most jews despise the orthodox groups and figure they're going to start a civil war at some point in an attempt to make Israel more extreme. Most Israeli settlers in the West Bank are orthodox jews, so it's quite understandable why the secular majority isn't too pleased with them, getting in the way of peace deals and all that. On top of that, secular jews are the only ones who are forced to serve in the army protecting these maniacs and their illegal aquisitions, the orthodox jews get exemptions from having to serve. As for the arabs being secular prior to Hamas- that's a very relative concept. The PLO has always espoused muslim principles and clothed the language of their struggle in islamic garb. They're only considered secular insofar as they didn't force men to grow beards or lock women in their homes with burkas while the men went out to party.
Israel created Hamas. Look it up. The Egyptians had the guy who went on to create Hamas in prison for several years. It was the Israelis who not only released him, but also funded fundamentalist movements in Palestine. Look up the religious inclinations of the earliest representatives of Palestine. Like Edward Said. If being born in Europe for 2000 years gives Jews a "right" to Israel, why do they grumble about Arafat? His father at least was a Gazan.
You just gave a perfect example of how the Israeli side of the story is arbitrarily erased from the picture. Only the orthodox jews claim Israel on the grounds that it was theirs 2000 years ago. The vast majority of secular Israelis claim legitimacy for several reasons. Ancient history only provides a reason for why they chose to purchase and build their nation state in the middle east instead of elsewhere.
Yeah, from 2000 years ago. Chose to purchase? Ever hear about the Absentee property law? Following on the heels of the expulsions???? http://philistine.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/israelis-being-kicked-out-of-homes-they-stole/
And Arafat's uncle, WW2 leader of the Palestinians, was a NAZI, who hung out with Hitler and raised troops on his behalf. The photographic proof was already provided earlier in this thread and is only a quick google search away if the links to those pictures ever stop working. We were never taught in school that in WW2, the arabs living in Israel/Palestine allied with Hitler in an attempt to clear out the jews.
The only evidence I have seen for jews allying with Hitler, on the other hand, was to say "ok don't worry, we'll f-ck off from Germany, all we need is your help to find us a place to go." The only negotiations the jews had with Hitler was to try and find themselves a place in the world as untermenschen submissives so they wouldn't all be killed off.
By your logic, I can claim there was no Holocaust, just trick photography. Anyway, if Jews are entitled to a Jewish state anywhere they please, why not support the German right to an Aryan state as well?
Firstly, I don't appreciate that you quote Palestinian propaganda websites when describing Israeli laws. I don't go quoting orthodox jewish sites talking about Sharia law. An Israeli source would be appropriate, and should be readily available since it's a public Israeli law. And as to the matter at hand, what does the Absentee property law state? As far as I can tell, it says "if you don't live on the land, and don't use it, it's not yours." What does that have to do with what happened 2000 years ago?
It only applies to Arabs, not British citizens, ie natives, not foreigners. That was the purpose of linking you to that article. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Where did I say anything about trick photography? Those photos of the mufti schmoozing with Hitler come from NAZI sources. Anyhow good luck passing off the Holocaust as a fake- there's more scientific and historical evidence for this than there is for the dinosaurs, and that's saying a lot. And like I said, the jews don't have a right to settle wherever they pleased. They wanted to settle in Israel because of their history, they purchased land from the absentee landowners, and they settled it. They didn't march in and say "this is our land because the Bible says so", because the Turks would have slaughtered them on arrival.
Give me a non-Palestinian source for that. The source you gave is an English-speaking source which calls the Palestinians "Phillistines". Hello, in English they're called Palestinians, period. The Phillistines were Greeks, not arab. The Palestinians are arab. Arabs don't come from Greece. Kapish?
I'll give you the same answer I gave spider elsewhere. They carried out a deliberate expulsion of the natives to create a Jewsih state, an Absentee property law to steal the land of those they expelled and a Jews Only right of return that allowed foreign non native Jews right to Palestinian land while Palestinians are still refugees. Proof? They are still doing it.
I don't support either communist invasions or capitalist invasions of sovereign nations. I support the will of the peoples of these regions to decide what is best for them. I am not racist. If you wish to prove that I am, I expect proof. If you are unable to prove this, I expect an apology. I am a Muslim, and the job of every Muslim is to work for peace and understanding between different people. I am dedicated to my religion, but this has never prevented me from being cordial and respectful to those who are respectful to me. Buffalo has made it his duty to misrepresent my religion and to advocate violence against my co-religionists. I am on this forum to respond to the criticism of my religion. I am not antagonistic to those who are respectful and understanding of me. I have been your opponent in many debates on this forum because I believe firmly that the vast majority of Muslims are good, peaceful, and just people. I will continue to advocate this view of Muslims and Islam as it has enlightened my thinking. I am also involved in advocating for the rights of my downtrodden brethren around the globe. I support self-determination for all people, but I feel that the majority of Western people are not acquainted with Muslims and their grievances. I only oppose what I see as incorrect, namely, American foreign policy and the rights of law enforcement to detain of any Muslim, proven or not, as an enemy combatant or suspected terrorist. I am neither a Communist nor a Capitalist, and I advocate the peaceful coexistence of all government ideologies and systems in the world, including Islamic theology. Muslims are being denied the right to self-determination in their own lands by a combination of secular capitalist-minded upper classes, foreign Western government influence, and destructive ethnic nationalism. American foreign policy is one of the problems Muslims around the world face, and it is one of the major ones. Americans should know what their military and their leaders are doing to punish starving, exploited Muslim populations around the world. I wish for all people to live in peace, but as my people are dying and suffering every day I cannot live with myself if I ignore the sight of the their bleeding and torn bodies. This is a tough uphill battle which I fear will not be accomplished in my lifetime, but I have made the resolve to advocate for the rights of my brothers and sisters, and in this sense, I look at all things. I apologize for this long response. In short, I wish for people to be more understanding of the message I am attempting to portray. You must understand that sentiment such as Buffalo's constant tirades is one of the main reasons why Muslims are suffering under occupation of foreigners and selfish tyrants.
you do know that the majority of palestinians fought for the british right. and jewish terror groups also had contact with the nazis?
Britain equipped and trained various armies to hold onto their lands in the event the Germans attacked. In areas the Germans controlled, the majority of the locals cooperated with them and actively helped them seek out and eliminate the jews. There were many heroic resisters who risked their lives to save the jews, but they were a small minority of the larger, anti-semitic arab populations. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who was the leader of the Palestinians, chose to ally himself with Hitler's cause and was sent into exile for his attempts to fight the British and the local jews in Palestine. And as for those highy trained, well-equipped soldiers who stayed loyal to Britain, they were the same ones who attacked Israel in 1948 after it declared independence. As for jews allying with Hitler, the only major effort I've ever heard of was to get Hitler to stop killing the jews and deport them to another country instead, preferably Palestine. Hitler had a bizarre thing about respecting people when they lived on their traditional lands, so the jews figured the only way to make him happy was either to die or to move to Palestine. I've read some of the quotes about jews supposedly asking to be part of Hitler's grand designs. If you'd bothered to learn what Hitler's grand design was, it was to have Aryan Germans ruling the whole world, and all the other races would serve as their loyal pet apes in their traditional homelands. The jews tried to appease Hitler by offering to become his untermenschen slaves in Palestine, a desperate and unsuccessful ploy to stop the killing.
Have you heard of Emil Maurice? Did you know Yitzak Shamir offered the Irgun to fight with Hitler if he supported Zionist aspirations? Apparently he was rejected due to his negligible influence. It was called the NMO at the time, not the Irgun. That Helmut Schmidt was a lieutenant in the Luftwaffe? That Gertrude Stein nominated Hitler for the Nobel Peace Prize?
