Garden of Eden Discovered - Central site of the Agricultural Revolution?

Discussion in 'The Cesspool' started by paygan, Feb 7, 2011.

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  1. paygan Registered Member

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    Hello there!

    My name's Paul and I'm on an important mission to show the world where the real Garden of Eden is after finding it in Rashaya, Lebanon in November 2009.

    The Garden of Eden was a real place, and the centre of the Neolithic Revolution at about 9,500BC. It is located at the heads of the Dan, Banias, Hasbani and Upper Jordan rivers (that's 4 heads, as per the Genesis story AND in the Biblical lands), for more info please visit EdenTourism or The Golden Age Project.

    This conclusion was comprehensively mapped out by Christian O'Brien in his 1985 book, " The Genius of The Few" where he identified it through descriptions given in the earliest Nippur Tablets (The Barton Cylinder, etc), Atrahasis and The Book of Enoch, along with the Bible and The Koran. The Sumerians who were first recorded to have written about it called it "Kharsag".

    Eden was located on Google Earth by Edmund Marriage in 2006, who discovered a mile long Great Watercourse in place as per O'Brien's map. I led the field walk recently in an initial survey which has provided the first video (unreleased) and photographic evidence of the site for peer review. Please see the maps on The Golden Age Project website for both Google Earth and Christian O'Brien's placement of the remains of structures at this REAL place.

    O'Brien identified this site as the starting point of the Neolithic (Agricultural) Revolution at around 9,500BC, soon after the Younger Dryas. Inescapable evidence includes the the development of Jericho soon after this date, along with cultivated figs dug up on the other side of Mount Hermon and cultivated crops starting at Tel Abu Huera, not very far to the North by 9,050BC.

    You can also see the ruins of a man-made reservoir, great watercourse and irrigation channels on Google Earth, along with other structures.

    The Garden was known as "Kharsag" in the Sumerian Nippur Tablets which means means "head enclosure". The entire Rashaya basin floods every 5-10 years with millions of cubic gallons of water, forming a huge lake that can still be partially seen on Google Earth from the last one in 2005-2006. We found out from the Lebanese Red Cross that they had put dye down a sinkhole in the Garden that drains the entire basin. The dye came out in the Hasbani. After seeing all this, I now strongly suspect that the people who built Kharsag's reservoir, dam and watercourse did so to control the Lebanese and Anti-Lebanese mountain run off waters and direct them out into the lowlands of "Eden", the area around and likely to the South of Kharsag, which links into the Jordan river and associated famous valley possibly onward to Jericho, etc.

    The four headwaters I place as the Dan, Banias, Hasbani and Upper Jordan River rising out of the area around Eden / Kharsag and flowing into the Jordan. The final shape of the Book of Genesis is generally regarded to have taken place around 5-600 B.C. and most of the names have been changed from the actual places and people the stories are about. Mount Hermon for instance is recorded to have been known as Mount Sion in Deuteronomy 4:48. A name presumably somewhat pilfered by King David for Jerusalem's Mount Zion. The Rashaya Basin is 8 miles North of Mount Hermon, 25 miles East of Damascus.

    The centre of cultural diffusion at the time was the Garden, Kharsag, a bounded area in the mountains, sending out water and knowledge to the grassland/steppe area around, known as Eden.

    The theories about Eden being a central site of the agricultural revolution between the Tigris and Euphrates are disproven archaeologically as there would have been ice-flows in this area as agriculture started in the North Western bend of the fertile crescent, not the South East... and that Sumerian civilization didn't move to Eridu, their first city until around 5,500BC.

    The Garden of Eden is a central feature in Christianity, Islam and Judaism - showing it's natural origins and archaeological source will in my opinion have the maximum potential as a weapon to destroy those religions and the fantastic voodoo they have spread in billions of people's minds.

    I'm looking to promote Eden, as I can see the benefits of archaeology catching up with religion and showing it's source as scientifically as possible. It's a search for human origins and the starting point of the agricultural revolution which is currently best guessed at by Colin Renfrew's "Anatolian Hypothesis", which anyone knowledgeable on finds at Jericho, Tel Abu-Huera and around Mount Hermon may well speculate misses the facts by being a few hundred kilometres too North and a few hundred years too late.

    I've spent a lot of last year working on Wikipedia, figuring out where I stand academically on this. It's been a fierce battle with hardcore sceptics, armed with little peer reviewed material as ammunition. It has resulted in the creation of pages (often after massive heated debates you can read about in the discussions) on Kharsag, Christian O'Brien, George Aaron Barton and The Barton Cylinder - mankind's oldest written story, supposedly pre-dating even the Pyramid Texts.

    There are various accounts of the Garden of Eden outside the Bible, including the Koran. Eden itself comes from the Sumerian word "Edin" meaning "plain" or "steppe".

    The Nippur Tablets, including the Barton Cylinder are most important source documents describing the location of the Garden of Eden, and it's inhabitants, the first Sumerian Pantheon (An, Ninkharsag, Enlil & Enki). These were dug up in the foundations of the temple and library at Nippur by John Henry Haynes in 1898 and translated by George Aaron Barton. These are the oldest religious/story texts in the world, pre-dating the pyramid texts by at least half a century.

    Another is the Slavonic Book of Enoch 2 produced around the 2nd century BC from materials with a much older tradition, discovered by Canon Charles and translated by his friend Dr Morfill, the Professor of Slavonic Studies at Oxford. It is from Morfill's work that we have the clearest accounts of the Garden of Eden.

    Also we have an Akkadian work, Atra-hasis, Tablet 1 which was copied by a scribe called Ku-aya, in the reign of Ammi-saduqa about 1635 B.C., from non-existant, earlier material. It is indicated that Ku-aya translated an earlier Sumerian tablet into Akkadian. Translations of the Akkadian text have been made by Lambert and Millard, two Oxford scholars following in the footsteps of Canon Charles.

    Atra-hasis tells the story of a rebellion of the workers building the Great Watercourse in The Garden of Eden and of them surrounding Enlil's Great House in a mob with tools raised. It then tells the story of the Annunaki council creating "salaried man" and causing a massive rift in our development from utalitarian to capitalist objectives as a race.

    From this we get various legends of "fallen angels".

    The starting point of the agricultural revolution is thought by many to be 'Eden', which is currently best guessed at by Colin Renfrew's "Anatolian Hypothesis", which anyone knowledgeable on finds at Jericho, Tel Abu-Huera and around Mount Hermon may well speculate misses the facts by being a few hundred kilometres too North and a few hundred years too late.

    Inescapable evidence that Anatolia being a bit too North include the the development of agriculture at Jericho before this, cultivated crops are also found starting at Tel Abu Huera, not very far to the North by 9,050BC. Cicer arietinum L. (chickpea) and Vicia faba L. (faba bean, broad bean or horse bean) were found in late 10th millennium b.p. levels at Tell el-Kerkh. Cultivated figs were also dug up on the other side of Mount Hermon at Ohalo II, dated to 9,500-9,300 by Kislev et al not far from Kharsag / Eden.

    My biggest problem with the more Northern Theories for the origin of agriculture, is Dame Kathleen Kenyon's excavations of Jericho, which shows organised agriculture long before that date to the South of both Anatolia (Turkey) and Lebanon :

    Kathleen Kenyon's conclusions
    Kenyon's excavations demonstrated that Jericho was originally founded by sedentary foragers/collectors in the Natufian Period (12,800–10,500 b.p.), living in large semisubterranean oval stone structures, although it is unclear how extensive this occupation was. With the introduction of domesticated plants in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A period (PPNA) (ca. 10,500/10,300–9300 b.p.), Jericho mushroomed into a large regional agricultural community covering an area of some 300 square yards (25,000 sq m). Villagers, like those of the nearby sites of Netiv Hagdud and Gilgal I, lived year-round in roofed, oval semisubterranean dwellings.

    Pictured below is the ruin of a similar, oval, semisubterranean dwelling we found in the Rashaya basin (Eden / Kharsag) with a limestone plaster floor typical of other Neolithic finds dating to the time in question around this area:

    Also of interesst at Jericho is the 600 metre x 9 metre x 3 metre rock cut ditch radio-carbon dated to a re-calibrated date c. 8,800 - 9,000 B.C.

    The Great Watercourse in Eden looks to have been approximately the same specification - 9 metres deep by 3 metres wide and extends over a mile, the sinkhole section is pictured below. I have added another image, as if you look carefully, you can see a rock cut bridge extending over this section, with a groove alligned to Mount Hermon, from which I speculate hung a giant Cedar sluice (water control) gate.

    I would like to distinguish between Kharsag as the 'head enclosure' - which it literally means in Sumerian and Eden, which comes from 'Edin' meaning 'plain' or 'steppe' in Sumerian.

    I am suggesting, due to the size and scale of the watercourse, reservoir and features that this was a central site, far bigger than any others at this time that started a massive expansion in the 10th millenium that I would suggest as being caused by cultural diffusion of irrigation and farming techniques outwards from this location.

    What you can do to help? Well, do some reading and if you're interested and support the promotion of this knowledge, spread it around other web-boards, friends and family. The Golden Age Project has some fascinating stuff on it, which you might have to wade through to find, but it's all in there somewhere, it's FREE and the site is looking a lot better than it did 18 months back. "The Genius of The Few" is probably the best book with the best info about O'Brien's location of Eden in Rashaya if you can't be bothered trawling the website for it and want a nice collectors edition.

    If anyone can assist to get a review of the above book into a major newspaper or peer reviewed journal - positive or negative - I can then go walkabout on Wikipedia again with a really big gun against the sceptics. If anyone wants the most amazing topic for a thesis, I cannot think of anything bigger than this. ;-)

    Also, if anyone wants to visit, I have the contacts to arrange a mind-blowing visit to the area in comparative safety and comfort, funding for pollen core analysis and geo-phys surveys surveys is required, along with further peer reviewable material and the attention of UNESCO and the Lebanese Ministry of Culture.

    More on that to come in my posts. Let me know if you have any questions as I claim to have a lot of knowledge about the Eden / Kharsag site.

    Look forward to discussing this more with you science bods, and to posting some pictures and maps if we get to debating it past 20 posts!
     
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  3. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    The GoE is great as a theoretical construct, or even an idea to pointlessly debate, but...

    Actually never mind. It's perfect for the forum.
     
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  5. synthesizer-patel Sweep the leg Johnny! Valued Senior Member

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    are there apple trees?
     
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  7. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Quiet, unbeliever.
     
  8. paygan Registered Member

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    LoL Geoff!

    A well considered response.

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    Syntheszer-patel raises an interesting question. It would seem more likely that the first fruit in the Garden of Eden would be figs. Cultivated figs dating to around 9,400-9,200 B.C. were discovered in 2006 at Gilgal I in the Jordan Valley by Ofer Bar-Yosef of Harvard University and Mordechai E. Kislev and Anat Hartmann of Bar-Ilan University.

    Wild apples seem to have been dated as far back as 6,500 B.C. in Anatolia and I am unaware of any finds in or around the Jordan valley or Levant areas in Natufian times.
     
  9. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    When did the marijuana bushes start to bud?
     
  10. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Are there snakes? Because I heard they can be trouble.
     
  11. jmpet Valued Senior Member

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    The OP was well written and presented- he is not a woo hoo and perhaps deserves some serious posts on the topic.

    We can all agree that oral traditions are generally a reliable source for some historical event that may have happened a long time ago in some regard. Like the Noah story and the Babylonian flood story which, over time, could become one long before it was written down.

    The same may apply to the Garden of Eden. WITH THAT SAID... I am not jumping to any conclusions about God and Adam and Eve etc... but it is concievable that some incarnation of the Garden of Eden may have actually existed.
     
  12. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    LOL..love that comment..
     
  13. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    genesis 2 12
    12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin:m: and onyx are also there.)

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  14. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    He's simply suggesting that the site where the first tribe of humans developed farming would have looked supernatural to other tribes who saw it for the first time. It could easily give rise to legends.

    Especially if they had developed both of the technologies that comprise agriculture: farming and animal husbandry. Coming up to the top of a hill and seeing nice neat rows of fig trees and possibly other cultivated plants below you would be startling. But imagine seeing a herd of herbivores living contentedly inside a fence! Or stranger yet, being controlled by a team of tame wolves!
    The Bible never named the fruit on the Tree of Knowledge. Deciding that it was an apple is a Eurocentric accretion. Apples in fact are not native to Mesopotamia and Asia Minor so it most definitely could not have been an apple. Pomegranates did grow wild there so it could have been a pomegranate. An ancient European explorer seeing a pomegranate for the first time might have called it "a strange kind of apple."

    In Paygan's scenario it would pretty much have had to be a fig. Figs (according to the latest research I've read) were the very first cultivated crop in the Eastern Hemisphere. We've got fossils from their middens with DNA in good condition and the figs have clearly been hybridized.

    (In the Western Hemisphere it was the pepper.)
     
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Where does the GoE story originate? With the Sumerians?
     
  16. paygan Registered Member

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    Firstly, Thanks for further warm and sensible receptions! Special thanks to NMSquirrel for answering the silly questions!

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    It may be best to leave religion out of this and concentrate on the evidence for the Rashaya Basin / Kharsag being a large central site of the agricultural revolution.

    Look at all the items under Supporting Evidence (Kharsag Section) and have a look at the "Learning from History Part 10" powerpoint on The Golden Age Project website as this should help on a number of key points particularly agricultural origins, with the head of the two rivers as the meeting place for the Divine Council (first Kharsag and later Baalbek - not Euphrates and Tigris -but the Orontes and Litanni), all the names for Mt Hermon, and the overall suitability of the site for snow melt irrigation for the first part of the year, and water storage for the remaining growing season. Winter storm water taken away when needed to the Wadi Nerab to avoid flooding problems.

    To better understand why I keep referring to this location as "Kharsag" as well as "The Garden of Eden" and to answer Michael's question about GoE originating with Sumerians. I'm going to copy out the old Wikipedia page about some little known texts used to validate O'Brien's work - the Kharsag Epics here for you. The article was (marginally) deleted because they are not verifiable due to no peer reviews of the naming convention of the texts, despite my argument establishing them as notable (because notability is not temporal). The Barton Cylinder page on Wikipedia was created as a result, which I consider highly notable as it is man's earliest religious (=story) writing.

    The Kharsag Epics is the name given by geologist Christian O'Brien to a series of epic poems from Mesopotamia (ancient Iraq) and are among the earliest known works of literary writing. Some esoteric scholars believe that these texts originated as a series of legends and poems about the earliest mythological hero-gods including An, Enlil, Enki and Ninkharsag in a location called Kharsag.[1][2][3][4][5] The Epics are contained in Sumerian tablets recovered by Dr. John Henry Haynes during the University of Pennsylvania's excavations at Nippur in 1896-1898 and translated originally by George Aaron Barton.

    Several of the epics were translated in 1918 by professor of Semitic languages and the history of religion George Aaron Barton under the title "Miscellaneous Babylonian Inscriptions". They are dated considerably earlier than the Gudea Cylinders to at least the reign of Akkadian king Naram-Suen of Akkad (ca. 2190 – 2154 BC short chronology) and possibly as early as 2,500BC[8]. Barton originally dated them even earlier to 2704-2660BC according to Breasted's chronology.

    The first Kharsag Epic, as translated by Christian O'Brien begins "At Kharsag, where Heaven and Earth met, the Heavenly Assembly, the Great Sons of Anu, descended - the many Wise Ones"[9][10].

    The second Kharsag Epic, a reverse cut cuneiform cylinder, described by George Aaron Barton as "The oldest religious text from Babylonia" mentions Kharsag in the first line of the second verse - "The holy Tigris, the holy Euphrates, the holy sceptre of Enlil establish Kharsag"[11].

    The Sumerian text of tablet 8383 (as translated above) amounts to 268 lines of cuneiform though 19 columns of inscription. Of these 268 lines (as numbered for translation purposes) 226 are transcribed in whole or in part, with 42 obliterated lines unresolved. Christian O'Brien explained that there are actually 320 lines of inscription on this cylinder. A further analysis of all columns in the 1980s resolved some of the previous partial-line results and moved many more into translation[12].

    From columns I-VIII (1-8), three hitherto uninterpreted addresses by Ninkharsag were now evident. From columns IX-XV (9-15) was information concerning Enlil's great house (the E-gal) at Kharsag. And, from columns XVI-XIX (16-19), were additional details concerning the 'sickness' with which Enlil and his brother Enki were stricken. By adding in the supplementary translations O'Brien brought the overall 320 lines to a point of 82.5% completion.

    The stories revolve around the arrival of the Annunaki on Mount Hermon, their decision to settle in a nearby plain and establish a head enclosure (O'Brien translates Kharsag literally as "head enclosure") with reservoir, irrigation channels and agricultural buildings. Christian O'Brien's translations generally favoured less supernatural explanations, suggesting the epics were an agrarian, historical record of events and the establishment of agriculture at a historical location[13]. His index of the tablets, and their Museum numbers are listed below[14][15][16]:
    Tablet one

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 14,005

    The Arrival of the Anannage
    Tablet two

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 8,383

    The Decision to Settle
    Tablet three

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 9,205

    The Romance of Enlil and Ninlil
    Tablet four

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 11,065

    The Planning of the Cultivation
    Tablet five

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 8,322

    The Building of the Settlement
    Tablet six

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 8,384

    The Great House of Enlil
    Tablet seven

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 8,310

    The Cold Winter Storm
    Tablet eight

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 8,317

    The Thousand Year Storm
    Tablet nine

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Numbers 19,751, 2,204, 2,270 & 2,302

    The Final Destruction

    Kharsag is overwhelmed by flood water, destroying the dam, reservoir and disabling the great watercourse.

    # Miscellaneous Babylonian Inscriptions by George A. Barton, 1918, Yale University Press
    (Search this book or look on The Golden Age Project Website for O'Brien's Translations)

    All this can go back on Wikipedia, just as soon as any of O'Brien's work on Kharsag gets a peer review, positive or negative, to become verifiable.

    The mythological and religion talk involved in the discovery of the site seems to be obscuring it's scientific importance to preserve for World Heritage, to explain why such a site might significantly alter our views of the Neolithic Revolution, I thought I'd also post a key quote from Professor Daniel Zohary about the likelihood of 1 domestication event for most of the founder crops. :

    Some of the available genetic evidence (such as chromosome polymorphism in lentil, chloroplast DNA polymorphism in barley, sibling species in tetraploid wheats, the nature of the loss of wild-type seed dispersal and germination inhibition) already appear to be highly indicative. Taken together with the floristic information on species composition, they suggest that at least emmer wheat – the most important crop of Southwest Asian and European Neolithic agriculture – as well as pea and lentil (the main legumes) were each taken into cultivation only once, or at most only very few times. Evidence pertaining to the mode of origin of einkorn wheat, chickpea, bitter vetch and flax is much more meager, yet the data seem to be compatible with the notion of a single origin in each case. Only barley, where two different non-shattering genes (bc and bt) have been discovered (Takahashi 1964), is there an indication that this important crop has been taken into cultivation more than once. Yet even here the chloroplast DNA data suggest that only very few events have occurred.

    In conclusion, the available data, fragmentary as they are, appear to support the hypothesis that the development of grain agriculture in Southwest Asia was triggered (in each crop) by a single domestication event or at most by very few such events.


    From The Origins and Spread of Agriculture and Pasturalism in Eurasia edited by David Harris

    I like to imagine the time when that watercourse was flowing, the two great houses of life and knowledge were shining silver in the moonlight. Camp fires from the workers houses were dotted all around the slopes into the valley. People settling down for the first time and learning to cultivate plants and organise our race. When the ruins of the large irrigation system we found were operational, it must have made it very lush and green back then with likely far more trees.
     
  17. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    You are very fortunate to do a job like this.
    The field expedition must have been fun to do.

    In a nutshell, are you suggesting that the garden of Eden was created by early farmers diverting rivers, creating a greatly fertile region to grow crops in?
     
  18. Mircea Registered Member

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    Can't see it happening.

    We'll start with this passage (and before anyone gags -- I'm an atheist).

    Genesis 2:10 Now a river flows from Eden to water the orchard, and from there it divides into four headstreams. 2:11 The name of the first is Pishon; it runs through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 2:12 (The gold of that land is pure; pearls and lapis lazuli are also there). 2:13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it runs through the entire land of Cush. 2:14 The name of the third river is Tigris; it runs along the east side of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates.

    In looking at this, where is the geographic location of the writer and his audience?

    That should be easy. In reviewing, we go from detailed description, to somewhat descriptive, to barely descriptive, to no description at all. That's quite logical.

    The Pishon is the Kuwait River. It was discovered recently (maybe 12 years ago) during a space shuttle mapping mission using ground penetrating radar. The origin of the Kuwait River is tributaries in the Hijazz Mountains in western Saudi Arabia and the river flowed east into what is now the Basra Region of Kuwait where it merged with the Euphrates. The writer provides a detailed description because at the time the author was writing, the Kuwait River had been dead for several thousand years (it probably died between 6,000 and 4,000 BCE during the desertification process that created the Sahara as well as the Libyan, Negev and Arabian Deserts to name a few in the area).

    The second river (Gihon) is the Karun River that runs through the Zagros Mountains in Iran northeast before coming out of the mountains and flowing south toward what is now the Persian Gulf. Originally, it would have merged with the Tigris.

    The "land of Cush" merits a few words. What we have here is either an orthographic error or an emendation made by a Hebrew scribe.

    The sounds 'k' and 'kh' in Classical Biblical Hebrew were represented by what can best be described as a backward letter 'C' in the Western Alphabet and and a backward letter 'C' with a dot in the center. A correct transliteration would be Kush and Khush. The Kush lived in Ethiopia, but the Khush lived in the area between the Tigris and the Zagros Mountains. The Khush are known in most texts as the Kassites (or Cassites).

    The Kassites were destroyed by the Gutians who lived just south of them. The Gutians later took control of Sumer and Akkad circa 2300 BCE and after a century of "barracks kings" were annihilated by the Akkadians during a rebellion.

    A Hebrew scribe writing in later periods would never have met a Khush, or known anyone who did, and Khush Culture was lost forever (at least to the people of the time), and so the scribe would not have even known of their existence. If a scribe did not make an orthographic error and omit the dot in the backward C, it's likely a scribe attributed it to an orthographic error and emended the text because he'd never heard of the Khush and thought a previous scribe made an orthographic error by adding the dot to the backward C.

    Anyway, the writer says the third river, the Tigris is to the east, which is a big clue as to where the writer is, and he is west of the Tigris.

    And then the fourth river is the Euphrates, for which the author gives no description at all. Why? Because he's sitting on the banks of the Euphrates and so is his target audience. Everyone in his target audience knows where the Euphrates is.

    One of the things that some people have great difficulty with is envisioning Earth-of-the-Past when discussing Earth-of-the-Past.

    In the Earth-of-the-Past, there was no such thing as a Persian Gulf. That is to say, the Persian Gulf did not exist 10,000 years ago.

    Why? Because the sea levels were 600-800 feet (180m - 240m) lower than they are today, and that precluded the possibility of a Persian Gulf existing.

    So what did exist there? The Persian River Valley.

    Those four rivers all merged together, the Kuwait with the Euphrates, and the Tigris with the Karun, and then those two rivers merged together and formed the Eden River, which then flowed over a high cataract very much like Niagara Falls, or maybe Angel Falls.

    The Eden River flowed through the Persian River Valley to spectacular gorge, which we today call the Straits of Hormuz, and from there, the Eden River flowed another 90 miles or more into a delta at the Indian Ocean.

    When the sea levels suddenly rose, the Persian River Valley, the Eden River and whatever else was in the valley was totally obliterated.

    The other conclusion you can draw from the passage is that the writer has a very Mesopotamian World View, a World View that is centered on Sumer and Akkad.

    Prehistoric Investigations in Iraqi Kurdistan includes an entire section on
    palaeo-ethnobotany by Helbaek. There is absolutely no doubt that wheat and other emmers originated in Iraq across the region from the Kurdistan part of Turkey to the area of the Zagros Mountains. That has been proven through genetic studies.

    There's no evidence of ice-flows.

    If you read the inscriptions you cited, then you should know the Sumerians were forced to abandon their cities because of the Deluge and occupy the high plateau areas until the low lands dried out.

    Also, if you're expecting peer-review on Sumerian glyphs, or on Akkadian cuneiform, that just isn't going to happen for a number of reasons. First, it isn't standard procedure, secondly, there are very few people who can translate cuneiform and even fewer who can translate Sumerian glyphs, and finally, a lot of the work is very private.

    None of Pindgree's translations were peer-reviewed. In fact one reason there are 30,000 cunieform texts sitting the British Museum is because there is still a fight over who controls them and who gets to translate them.

    Well, see, that presents a bit of a poser, doesn't it.

    You claim the names were changed, but why would Hebrews living in the Levant describe an area in Mesopotamia?

    Okay, so the Hebrews were exiled to Chaldea, but that doesn't explain why they would describe a dead river flowing through Arabian Peninsula.

    Okay, so obviously you have an agenda, and very sharp axe to grind.

    That is detrimental, as it completely undermines your position.
     
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    What are the chances of two new members joining sciforums within one week of each other, both with some interest and/or expertise regarding the Garden of Eden?

    I love sciforums.
     
  20. birch Valued Senior Member

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    either way this is not about the location of the first humans. they would have dispersed from africa during the ice age outward. the scriptures don't indicate any type of tool use or agriculture. this was hinted after being expelled from the garden of eden as necessity. there is though some hint of animal husbandry possibly (naming of wildlife) and lots of various animal life, and natural vegetation. the garden of eden would be africa or coastal plains of africa. genesis account indicates a very primitive and natural surrounding with rich resources (eating wild fruit) and a very basic start (nakedness).

    the "story" of adam and eve probably started in the middle east.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  21. carlsongs Registered Member

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    Im a Newbe as well. I joined to learn about science and all I see so far is a bunch of religious Rambo wars. Im a little curious where the Garden of Eden is because there is Gold there. If you dont find any Gold there. Maybe its not The Garden of Eden. But if you do find Gold there. Can you let me be the first to know?
     
  22. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    welcome..

    first you have to know that the gold is mine..i inherited it...

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  23. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Perhaps you ought to try asking some science questions in the science subforums.
     
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