Everyday sexism

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by James R, Dec 7, 2020.

  1. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Alex:

    I intend to respond to all of your recent replies in some more detail, although mostly you're just saying the same thing over and over.

    One thing I have noticed is that you're regularly denying that women regard sexist behaviour as offensive. That includes sexist "jokes" like the one from paddoboy which started this thread, the wink-and-a-nod supermarket requests for young women to point paddo towards the "extra virgin olive oil", the habitual use of the overly-familiar and patronising "luv" (or "honey" or "sweety" or "babe") as a form of a address to young women (in particular) in customer service environments, and more.

    Earlier in the thread, a number of people provided examples of direct testimony from women about how they find all of these behaviours offensive, sexist, patronising, patriarchal and - in some cases - sleazy. There have been quotes from facebook threads, from women on other forums, from various mainstream media sources, and more. If that's not enough, two women who are participating in this thread have made it very clear what they think about those behaviours.

    What more do you want? How many testimonies from women will you require before you will accept that women don't enjoy these behaviours from sexist men, old or young?

    As I previously said, you might find many who will tolerate such behaviours because they don't want to make a scene (and for other reasons). I think it will be difficult, but you might even find a few women who say they love being addressed as "luv" or "babe" by old men, and who have a good old chortle whenever an old man wants them to "lubricate" him by supplying him with alcohol. None of that changes the fact that, as a general rule, those behaviours are unwelcome, and it would be better for everyone if (old) men did not habitually engage in them, even at the expense of those old men losing some of the privilege they have been habituated to expect.

    Since you seem to need some evidence for a sexual connotation for the word "lubricate", try this from urbandictionary.com, for starters:

    lubricate (v.): To make something slippery. A more erotic explanation would be to make the penis or vagina more slippery and hence achieve a better rubbing feeling when the sex organs are rubbing against each other. Men produce a lubricant called precum while women secrete vaginal fluid that makes the vagina walls wet.
    Go on, Alex. Pretend that you weren't previously aware of this usage.
     
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  3. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Absolute rubbish James.
    The testimonies that are relevant would be the ones from the women who you claim Paddo offended...what others think or say or what face book says has nothing to do with the fact that you claim Paddo upset women in the bank but you have no testiminials from them..you have no evidence to support your claim..it is that simple and trying to 8nfluence opinion by saying but we have members who think it is wrong is absolutely irrelevant...you can not say well ackording to a survey nine out of ten would be offended..what you are simply incapabke of understanding is if you claim the women at the bank were offended you need their testomony ..not the testonomy of forum members or any one else...what is it that makes you incapable of seeing what you are doing is proceeding on assumption.

    Your are wrong but just can not conceed that you need evidence...imagine going before a court and seeking that Paddo be convicted for the crime of whatever and you said to the judge well everyone thinks he is guilty and nine out of ten women are offended...don't you think the judge would tell you exactly what I am telling you..you have no evidence..case dismissed..and so you would appeal and on appeal you would get the same judgement...no evidence to support what you claim.
    You are absolutely disgusting...
    And no I was not aware of such ...but you need help...seriously.
    So much goes over your head..like the thing re the threats of violence in the other thread..you missed totally that it was a failed attempt at parody..no recognition that is what the whole thing turned on and you are still wandering around in the wilderness..you are hopeless.

    So in the context of Paddo saying he and his mates were kept well lubricated, and in the case where two of my mates have used the word in the common language that Mick pointed out would you care to take it further..exactly what went through your disgusting little mind when Paddo said kept me and my mates lubricated? Well exactly what..did you have visions along the lines of the definition you found?
    And what about when I called my mate and he said "Peter kept us well lubricated with his home brew." .what dirty little thought raced thru your head..a man there pouring...oh I can't even go an inch down your line of thought...and my mate that I just rung..you talk about testimony well I in effect have testimony from two people addressing usage of the word that shows it as the common usage that Mick mentioned...

    And I notice not one word from you upon the quotes , the domestic violence the roll of the church ....but mention " lubricate" and you are all ears...and so clearly you make the point of that video that folk like you invent a reality which only suits their purpose... but I can assure you when you hear the word lubricate around alcohol it means no more than keeping up an adequate flow of grog and it does not matter how dirty your little mind is you will find no one ekse will be with you to support your dirty small minded wrong approach.

    Now as to your claim that I am going over and over it is because you can not accept that if you are to make any claim re Paddo you need testimony..not from folk who were not there..but the people involved..you can bleat until the cows come home but you need back up..and you have none and have no chance to get it so roll over you have lost accept your defeat and stop acting like a Trump.

    Given you think I am going over and over I will cease my replies to your posts..I was going to over time but really you are incapable of seeing reality..the actual reality not your invented reality...

    Alex
     
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  5. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I entered "lubricate" in the urban dictionary...only James's definition appeared..nothing about lubricating a motor, nothing about drinking, just what he put up...so where does that leave my car..nothing about car lubrication..how odd..a billion dollar industry and all that dictionary covers is lubrication in sex...seems to me that dictionary is not worth a pinch of shit to use the vernacular.

    Now maybe I will look in a decent dictionary...no wonder you have a problem James..get another dictionary and look up, parody, evidence, testimony, and of course lubricate.

    Alex
     
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  7. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

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    sculptor likes this.
  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I found one over a month ago but so far in recent days nothing.

    I am not sure if I mentioned it but I now have three microscopes... two decent ones both with dedicated cameras and a smaller digital one suitable for larger objects.
    Both gifts from folk who like me ..one more appreciation for help I gave out.

    When I find a Tardigrade I will post some photos.

    I have taken a few photos of various things but I am developing a system to do stuff worthy of sharing.... I use my astronomy software rather than the software that came with each camera. But the microscopes are set up in the observatory with their own desk..not having much power is holding me back..that is why I am working hard to build the pad as it is for a shed that will house a decent 24 volt electrical system ( I have the solar panels eight 190 watt ..another gift from folk I helped..which will give me power as if I were on the grid. It is knocking me around a bit but soon everything will be finished and I won't be pushing my body past where I should.
    I just need to show that everything is ok .. I will e able to walk better when it is all finished cause I can rest more.
    Looked up lubricate in every dictionary i could find..all covered lubrication of machinery unlike the one James used..how odd that it just dealt with sex..maybe that's why he uses that dictionary...it's so funny how they all only hear what they want to hear...I do think it's a case if I said the Sun will rise tomorrow they will argue simp.y because I said it..all the boasting has got under their skin such they can't take on board anything that I say it seems..anyways they won't have to put up with me much longer when I get some strings..but James just won't admit he is wrong..I don't know how long it will take...

    Alex
     
  9. foghorn Registered Senior Member

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    Hey Alex, just in case you didn't know aready:
    https://askabiologist.asu.edu/space-tardigrades
     
    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.
  10. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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  11. Bells Staff Member

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    Or perhaps control your anger and emotions and do not threaten to 'go at' someone.

    I provided paddoboy numerous studies and articles detailing how women who work in retail and customer driven work (such as bank tellers, etc) find the terms of endearment to be a form of harassment and how the sly flirty comments and sexual innuendo is not welcome and how they feel harassed by customers, often sexually harassed and stalked. Paddoboy dismissed each and every single one because he refuses to accept he could be wrong.

    Okay..

    You aren't in a court of law. I say this because you are using the same tactics I have seen way too many lawyers try to use in court.

    All that's missing in the statement you just posted is a 'if it pleases the court'..

    It's a tactic I've seen you use to try to trip people up by a continual change of subject and shifting of that goal post.

    As I noted, numerous links, studies and articles have been provided about how retail and customer service staff, particularly women, feel about such behaviour. It is classified as sexual harassment for a reason.

    Paddoboy dismissed each and every single one.

    Here are some:

    https://medium.com/fearless-she-wrote/stop-calling-women-in-the-workplace-by-pet-names-b5b3d655a760
    https://www.fastcompany.com/90569439/we-need-to-talk-about-using-pet-names-for-women-at-work
    https://www.businesswritingblog.com/business_writing/2008/06/not-your-sweeti.html
    https://www.stylist.co.uk/life/careers/sexist-pet-names-women-called-office-work-place/307956
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/christina-franks/women-at-work_b_5601444.html

    Asking people to be respectful of others and to perhaps refrain from behaviour that could lead someone to feel uncomfortable or harassed is hardly a totalitarian approach.

    Behaviour and standards of behaviour have changed. People often try to hide behind their age for their bad behaviour. It does not work and should never be acceptable.

    You should also be mindful that paddoboy had already established a while ago that he only targets younger customer service or sales people and he admitted it is not something he would use with an older woman or someone in a position of seniority.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself why that is. Why would a grown man only target younger women with such pet names in a setting that he knows they can't tell him to stop. Given his constant 'calling the manager' type to praise the young women who smile at him when he sleazes onto them, I would imagine he would also be the type to call the manager to complain if they asked him to stop or were not smiling through it all..

    But hey, we'll just go with "I don't know"..
    https://www.americanbanker.com/news/banks-wrestle-with-sense-of-futility-on-sexual-harassment

    The point that you and paddoboy seems to be missing is that it's a matter of respect. Sexually harassing women in their work space, where they should feel and be safe from such behaviour and doing it from a customer standpoint where the employee often feels unable to do anything about it lest she lose her job, is not acceptable behaviour. Given paddoboy has admitted he only does it to younger women in customer service and retail jobs and not managers, it says a lot about his intent. To wit, he knows full well what he is doing and he does not care.

    Whether the women he sleazes onto felt harassed or not is beside the point. It's not acceptable behaviour.

    Full stop.

    I truly don't understand how this is still being debated.

    So, it's not a term you would use with a younger woman who is serving you drinks?

    Or how about the time where paddoboy advised that all parties were "consenting adults" to his "banter"? The fact that a lot of the young women he targets are still minors meant nothing. The term "consenting adults" was an interesting choice of words, don't you think? In other words, he knew exactly what he was doing. And tell me, how does coercion, fear of losing one's employment, pressure, etc, work in regards to "consent"? If a woman is forced to consent because she feels that if she does not, she could end up unemployed, has she consented? Legally, the answer is no. So when paddoboy used that phrase, deliberately I might add, it showed that he knew exactly what he was doing.

    So when he uses words like "lubricate", he knows exactly what he is doing.

    Just as when he refers to Wegs as "Wegsy", he knows exactly what he is doing.. he immediately diminishes her and thus her argument in his mind. When he sleazes onto women in their work places with suggestive comments and sexual innuendo, or he comments on their appearance, their looks, accent, etc, it's sexual harassment.
     
    James R and dumbest man on earth like this.
  12. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    he seems to be the sort that needs to be reminded the strippers aren't actually into you. ive worked in retail. we are very good at putting on a happy face while thinking something vastly different. they aren't saying anything cause they don't want to lose their job because management won't back them. i remember when i worked one place i would walk a coworker to her car as asked by her and our boss. i would be asked to rotate in to back off creepy old men getting to familiar with our younger female employees. anyone who thinks what he is doing is normal needs to see a proctologist cause they got their head up their ass.
     
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  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    ER why would I need to be reminded of such a thing given I don't go to strip clubs? I went once reluctantly when I was 20 years old (I am now 74) dragged along by a group of men I did not know as part of a bucks party for a late brother in law.

    What a sleazy way to try and avoid addressing any issue that I raise ..say the need for evidence or testimony in support of any claim.

    And I suppose spending all my working life in areas that involve working with the public you happily avoid taking into your reality for no other reason than you seek to claim higher ground that unfortunately you have yet to earn...so tell me why dont you think say in real estate we could have sexist problems..I would like you to consider that I had to deal with a situation where a sales girl told me of a buyer who told her he would buy the house if they could sign the contract over dinner...get a life and avoid making judgements based on zip.

    Pray tell what do you find within your philosophy that allows you to make such a disgusting comment..you carry on about lack of respect and yet fail to see your lack of respect labels you a hypocrite..or is it a case of if I (you in this case) do or say bad things it's ok but if someone who I ( again you in this case) disagree with says bad things then that entiteled me ( again you in this case) to be a disgusting fool. ..is it my determination to require evidence that you find objectionable? Is it my determination to suggest we should examine the church and Hollywood.. moreover what entitles you to be so dismissive and to behave so badly? You behave like a spoilt brat..grow up.

    You could try and realise that I am not against all reasonable efforts to effect change but certainly see mob rule and trial by a kangaroo court just as bad or worse than the posting of a joke that reflects a poor choice or the use of familiar language, which I have conceded would be best avoided, which however shows ignorance rather than malice.

    Why do you have this need to be part of an unthinking mod..a need to belong?

    Your hot headedness has already got you into trouble because of your inability to use mature language with sensible judgement..and yet you fail to learn from that and adjust your not so well thought out choice of words...mmm isn't that what you are complaining about..that people are not thinking about their choice of words.. you certainly are determined to heap justified ridicule upon yourself....so I suggest that perhaps you either address your obvious flaws or if you must address the sensible issues I point out pertaining to the need for evidence and consideration of why we have a culture that treats women so badly...perhaps you could offer some sort of mature comment upon the domestic violence issue and the research showing that religion has everything to answer for...when you grow I up that is... that could aid in your need to develop acceptable social skills ...and before trying to lecture upon "respect" perhaps realise it is a two way street....you could have addressed me directly yet you choose the James route of saying disgusting things to another leaving me with having to decide who is the greater coward...saying it to my face could avoid being rightly branded a coward.

    Further I remind you that I am it seems the only one in this forum who is more concerned with domestic violence than inappropriate jokes and the use of language that has seen its day pass.
    Further I remind you that I have already said on many occassionscthat I dont not use familar terms with strangers nor do I keep quiet if a sexist joke is told when I am in the group..I object..rationally, calmly with a determination to make my point rather than alienate people with a bullying and abusive approach....and thinking about it generally I actually practice what you lot preach...tell me do you know how many folk die duecto domestic violence in the USA..do you even know that happens?


    Alex
     
  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes I agree..the terrible outbursts I see here reminds me of the need not to bully folk.
    The quality you observe in Paddo boy is not limited to him...look at James..proven wrong over and over and he finally comes up with a dictionary that can only describe "lubricate" in his disgusting interpretation...and non other..the entry is just re sex..no reference to the lubrication of machinery, or to the usage around booze..he has examples..same approach that you find fails with Paddo...and he is still going on about it...
    The funny thing is I am on side with basically all you see as wrong..my points are about evidence and fair trial...
    I realise this goes back a long way and imagine that you have been drained of patience with Paddo.

    I am not being tactical I swears...I get frustrated that folk can not see my points re evidence etc.
    I like to argue straight up..I don't carry on like the previous guy nor do I ignore validcmaterial like James..
    And I accept valid critisms and adjust my ways.
    I can't speak for Paddo but I can say that I do not miss what it is all about...I think if you look at what I say that I don't like the familararity but am not supportive of jumping on folk who hold no malice..
    Anyways Paddo was raised a catholic and I bet that is where he got his lack of respect..I was raised to respect women and I do..as I have said I have stood up for them and justice all my life.
    I am not your problem if all men were respectful as try to be I suspect we would not have a problem.. or at least a lesser problem.

    I have to go...and if I don't ever get back may I say it has been a pleasure being here and know that I like all of you..even old matey above..like you I always enjoy his more reasonable posts...and I like and respect James I just like pushing him...and above all you all have my respect.

    You take care of that ear and I sincerely hope as each day passes your pain eases and you focus on only positive memories.

    Best wishes to all.
    Alex
     
  15. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    its the mindset. that the people in customer service are nice and perky to you because they are actually interested in you rather than its a company imposed mindset they have to have so they don't get fired.

    because its the same mindset

    so your pissed because i didn't expand upon how sexist behavior is bad?

    are you okay. you seem a wee bit touchy for something that is a relatively mild rebuke. your hostile reaction to my comment suggests its apt and you seem frustrated for having to defend your outdated mindset. sorry buddy im not the one sleezing on women here so quit trying to pretend you have any sort of ability to question my morals on this.

    also the comment was directed at paddoboy rather than you. if i meant you i would have reset the noun usage. so i do believe the lady doth protest to much. for future reference in english the use of a pronoun when following a given name is generally understood to be referring to the named individual
     
  16. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Let's pretend religion is the reason why all sexists and misogynists behave as they do...

    Okay, so?

    That's just an excuse. To say that paddoboy learned disrespectful behavior towards women during his days as a Catholic, or because of Catholicism, and that's that - is basically saying he has no agency or capability to learn anew, and change. Everyone has agency.

    The thing is though, paddoboy doesn't really care to change. Perhaps, some of us just wanted to read that he understood where we are coming from, that maybe he hadn't considered what women go through, and maybe we have a point. That's all.
     
  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Still waiting...anyways...



    Please I find it offensive that you are being familiar with me so please don't call me buddy the name is Alex ..practice what you preach and I can stop calling you a hypocrite.


    OK ...so you don't have a problem with me...you are easily misunderstood it seems.

    That is sexist you hypocrite.


    So you believe calling for evidence, testimony of witnesses, calling bullying and abuse bad are all out dated mindset...you want to think it thru like a grown up would...

    Anyways nice of you to reply and please when I am gone do your best to keep this thread going..it is after all another avenue of drawing attention to the innocent behaviour in the community that really could be phased out...thanks for the grammar lesson

    Again goodbye ..I can't believe how they keep you waiting.
    Alex
     
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Of course you have a point but he won't change or admit he could be wrong..all learnt from the Catholic church that enables a belief that because god is on your side you can do no wrong.

    If they don't admit me soon I am leaving.

    Al3x
     
  19. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    That's not true, that's not a Catholic teaching. That's not a Christian belief _that people believe they can do no wrong, because they believe in God.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    You're assuming he learned this behavior from religion, I don't think paddoboy stated that. But, even if he did...are you saying that he's not responsible for his actions? We all are. I'm confused by your line of thinking with all of this.
     
  20. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    you seem unwell
     
  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    No never..to be clear...I am saying, as supported by the things that I have posted, that the teachings of religion put women down..that is undeniable ...that is the evidence...I have only posted a small amount of it..you can't not just point to the good messages but all the messages..sure the church says love your neighbour but then you find stuff like I quoted...look at the positions women can hold in most religions..the Jews and the church of England are showing some leadership ( see exchemist post)...further the teachings of the church are quoted by men to justify their bad behaviour..ok they should not do that but the fact is there should be nothing attributed to religion that they can call upon as their authority for bad behaviour...my position should not be confusing...The Paddos of the world got their behaviour from our culture..what makes up our culture...well religion and Hollywood accounts for and reflects most all of it...given the church still sweeps domestic violence under the carpet they should change their ways..also look how they have dealt with the sexual abuse of minors...their cover up attitude must change..as I said, and this is backed up in the material I provided, victims say they are told by their religion ( generally) that praying will get god to stop the abuse or give the victim the strength to endure..I do not find that acceptable...when a man bashes a woman the police must be called..first time every time..make it clear that he will have to answer to the law and that his abuse will not be tolerated... but to say, as the church says, to the victim just hold on it will be ok is wrong and if you can not see that all I can say is you can expect nothing to change...when the church ( religions in general) say ..ok we will find you alternative accommodation and come with you to the police station to be with you when you file charges and support you and ban the purportrator from our church..I will be happy...well you think which approach could be best.

    Alex
     
  22. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    35,610
    Alex,

    Not rubbish. You demanded (even more) evidence before you'd believe women are offended by the behaviours we are discussing.

    Let's be clear. I have never once claimed that any particular women, in banks or elsewhere, were upset by paddoboy's sexist and sleazy remarks. With such behaviours being so common, there's a very good chance that those women just put up with it rather than making an issue of it, putting it down to sexist, entitled men who might not know any better. The women might roll their eyes at the 10th sexist remark they've had today from an old man in the bank, but that doesn't mean they are upset about it. It just means they would prefer not to have to deal with that kind of bullshit every day in their workplaces.

    The question you and paddo should ask yourselves is this: should you engage in or condone the behaviours discussed (calling young women "luv", asking for directions to the "extra virgin olive oil" with a wink and a nod, speaking about waiting staff "lubricating" you, etc.), or not, given that both of you know that women find those behaviours offensive, unwelcome and, often, sleazy?

    You and paddoboy ought to be able to give a clear "no" in answer to that question, but you can't.

    paddoboy is proud of engaging in those behaviours, and determined to keep behaving like that in regards to women. He has told us all that. He has also made it clear that it doesn't matter to him that he knows that those behaviours are inappropriate - that he (now) understands why women dislike them and are offended by them. In other words, he continues to knowingly act like a sexist pig, and has no intention of ever stopping.

    As for you, Alex, you say you don't engage in such behaviours yourself, but you're happy to condone them in others (as in the case of paddoboy). In fact, you're willing to defend paddoboy on the grounds that lots of other old men act the same way - as if that somehow makes his behaviour acceptable and right. And you tell me that I'm talking "absolute rubbish".

    Why not? If 9 out of 10 women find that behaviour offensive, why would you want to condone it? Because there's a 1 in 10 chance that a random woman paddoboy meets in a shop might not be offended by his inappropriate remarks and attitudes?

    We're not in a court here. This is a discussion about appropriate and respectful behaviour. There are no laws in place that say that an old man can't be a sexist pig, so nobody's going to throw paddo in jail for that.

    His "crimes" are self-reported, by the way. Nobody here has made up lies about him. All the examples we have referred to throughout this thread have come straight from the horse's mouth. They are all on record. But you still say I'm talking "rubbish".

    No. The use of the term "lubricate" in sleazy way to make a double entendre reference to women is disgusting. Don't shoot the messenger. Save your criticism for the knowing and deliberate perpetrator.

    Why? Because I reference a meaning that 95% of the population is aware of, although you claim to be ignorant of it?

    Why aren't you talking about that in the appropriate thread, if you're so concerned? I have discussed it at some length. Maybe you ought to familiarise yourself with the context of that thread before spouting off on that topic as well.

    What went through my mind was the double meaning of "lubricated", obviously, and the pathetic attempt to deny that implication in the words that paddoboy chose deliberately to use in reference to women obliged to serve him and his mates drinks.

    The same ones prompted by the initial discussion we were having concerning the double meaning of the word.

    Again, you're making the argument that if the usage is common then it must be unremarkable and it should be condoned. The whole point of this thread is to get some men to start thinking about what they say in reference to women and, probably more importantly, what they say directly to women.

    That's a completely separate topic and one that I am very willing to discuss with you in a separate thread.

    To be brief, I think that your desire to put all the blame for sexism on the Church and Hollywood is naive and unsustainable. Sexism and oppression of women was around long before Hollywood - or even the Christian churches - existed.

    It makes you wonder why the meaning I referred to appears in dictionaries, doesn't it, if it's just my small dirty mind that's to blame? If it doesn't, it ought to.

    By the way, I'm sure you'll find a similar reference if you read the definition in any complete version of whatever reputable dictionary you want to choose. It's not like the usage is recent, or invented by the internet, or something. It certainly was not invented by me.

    How convenient for you. I'm sure you're dying for an excuse to exit the discussion without conceding that you're an enabler for men like paddoboy. You actively defend him and his offensive behaviours, at the expense of defending women against such behaviours. That says it everything that needs to be said about your stance on this matter. There's little need for you to post more.
     
  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes and perhaps I am being too emotional..I hate injustice and that is all I can see with how the matter is approached here..think about my words..evidence, mob mentality and kangaroo courts...I want what you all want but not at the expense of justice.
    Alex
     

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