This is an illustration of the gulf between what "should be" and what is, in America.
Meanwhile, Michael 345 is telling us all that race doesn't exist. It makes you wonder why all these forms ask about it, doesn't it?
Everyday racism
- Thread starter paddoboy
- Start date
Meanwhile, Michael 345 is telling us all that race doesn't exist. It makes you wonder why all these forms ask about it, doesn't it?
Inadvertent, on my part - sorry about that.
The grease for the slide, in my case, was the common base in a presumption that the dubiously behaving individual embodies and controls their society's norms and the justifiable reactions of the people they are dealing with, moment by moment - that whatever implications or meanings they did not consciously intend thereby did not exist, or at least are none of their responsibility.
(That also helps to explain the otherwise odd correlations of the common manifestations of racism and sexism - they predict each other, in a given person, far better than chance allows)
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Yes 100% without a second thought. Fijians have a sense of humour and they are able to laugh at themselves as far as being on time is concerned.
Exactly James! It's a standing joke in Fiji. You need to get out more! Race was raised much earlier, at post 26, 37 and 40
I have a good mate...Irish he be, tells some great Irish yarns!!
I answered that, post 26, 37 and 40
Alex,
Something seems to have set you off.
Race is a cultural construct that people use. As far as I can tell, using terms like "black" and "white" is just a recognition that race is relevant in certain discussions. Similarly, sex is important in certain discussions - hence the terms "man" and "woman", or "male" and "female".
Racism and sexism, to me, imply discriminatory and often abusive behaviour towards a person on the basis of their sexual or racial classification. While I can see that "white male" could be used to discriminate or abuse in some circumstances, for the most part I think it the kind of neutral term that would be hard to avoid in any discussion where sex and race is relevant.
What form of language do you propose we use instead to refer to a "white male" like me, for instance?
Do you think it is an insult to refer to somebody's age accurately? Is "old white male" even more offensive to you than "white male"? What descriptive term do you propose we should use instead of "old", when age is relevant in a discussion?
Would you prefer that nobody is ever criticised when they behave poorly?
Even before I split the "everyday sexism" thread off from the original one where all this started, I suggested to paddoboy that he might not want to open up his sexist behaviour for yet another round of careful scrutiny. Please be aware that he wanted to take this matter further.
I note that you have pointed out nothing irrational so far (from me, for instance). As for bullying, I'm not sure what makes you feel like you need to protect paddoboy from the evil PC brigade. If he has done nothing wrong, why does he need your protection? Why are there now two active threads discussing the ins and outs of sexism and racism? Why are some people (old white males, I might venture) getting so defensive and angry about all this? If you have nothing to apologise for, why are you getting so upset?
Then there's the hypocrisy you mentioned. Please explain what is hypocritical about anything I have written. I really want to know, so I can try to be better in future, if there's a problem. Many others here, you will notice, are making no apologies or promises of that kind. You might ask yourself why that is the case.
But I'm still a bit puzzled as to why you are so upset about what's going on with paddoboy in these threads. Is it because you worry that, if the PC brigade turned out to have a point after all, it might reflect poorly on your own behaviours towards women in certain contexts? Are you worried that you might not come out looking like a "good person" if the PC brigade has any valid points about old white males?
Want to rethink it, calmly?
Something seems to have set you off.
Can you please explain to me why you believe the term "white male" (or "white man") is racist and sexist, rather than merely descriptive?
Race is a cultural construct that people use. As far as I can tell, using terms like "black" and "white" is just a recognition that race is relevant in certain discussions. Similarly, sex is important in certain discussions - hence the terms "man" and "woman", or "male" and "female".
Racism and sexism, to me, imply discriminatory and often abusive behaviour towards a person on the basis of their sexual or racial classification. While I can see that "white male" could be used to discriminate or abuse in some circumstances, for the most part I think it the kind of neutral term that would be hard to avoid in any discussion where sex and race is relevant.
What form of language do you propose we use instead to refer to a "white male" like me, for instance?
It sounds to me like your trying to defend everyday sexism or racism on the basis that "old people" don't mean anything by it, or something like that. Is that what you're upset about - that people like me are looking at visible behaviours rather than hidden intentions?
Who is the head wanker in your scenario?
Why add "woman" at all. Why not stop at "Thank you"? Why the need to add "love"? Can't you see that some people might take offense at the liberties being taken with that form of address?
I don't recall the "grow a pair" comment myself. As for his age, calling people "love" does seem to be more prevalent in certain older Australians, in my experience.
Do you think it is an insult to refer to somebody's age accurately? Is "old white male" even more offensive to you than "white male"? What descriptive term do you propose we should use instead of "old", when age is relevant in a discussion?
In a different thread, I have had a discussion about so-called "cancel culture". I'm not a fan of "cancelling" people who do the wrong thing. I'm in favour of showing them what was wrong, so they can try to do better in future.
Would you prefer that nobody is ever criticised when they behave poorly?
Poor paddoboy.
Even before I split the "everyday sexism" thread off from the original one where all this started, I suggested to paddoboy that he might not want to open up his sexist behaviour for yet another round of careful scrutiny. Please be aware that he wanted to take this matter further.
I note that you have pointed out nothing irrational so far (from me, for instance). As for bullying, I'm not sure what makes you feel like you need to protect paddoboy from the evil PC brigade. If he has done nothing wrong, why does he need your protection? Why are there now two active threads discussing the ins and outs of sexism and racism? Why are some people (old white males, I might venture) getting so defensive and angry about all this? If you have nothing to apologise for, why are you getting so upset?
Then there's the hypocrisy you mentioned. Please explain what is hypocritical about anything I have written. I really want to know, so I can try to be better in future, if there's a problem. Many others here, you will notice, are making no apologies or promises of that kind. You might ask yourself why that is the case.
While in many other respects paddoboy might very well be a good person, it is quite clear that he has a certain blindness when it comes to recognising power dynamics in everyday interactions such as customer and service provider. That he takes inappropriate liberties in some situations is quite clear. That he discriminates on the basis of sex is also clear. Previously, he might have been able to claim that he just wasn't aware of the effects of his behaviours, but he can no longer legitimately plead ignorance as an excuse.
But I'm still a bit puzzled as to why you are so upset about what's going on with paddoboy in these threads. Is it because you worry that, if the PC brigade turned out to have a point after all, it might reflect poorly on your own behaviours towards women in certain contexts? Are you worried that you might not come out looking like a "good person" if the PC brigade has any valid points about old white males?
Who is "real people"? Old white males? Who's not "real people" in your book, Alex?
With a comment like that, I think you have no idea, if you're actually serious and not just blowing off steam.
Want to rethink it, calmly?
It's not imagined. It's as reported by you. You keep providing more and more examples, regularly.
Whatever self-protection mechanism works for you, I guess. Rather than own your behaviour, acknowledge the criticism and try to be better in future, you wave your hands and dismiss valid criticisms as groundless emotionally-motivated attacks on your good character. Ego intact, you try to walk away with head held high. While you pat yourself on the back, you leave your public reputation in tatters. Again.
Only by your imagined standards. In my community, the standard that applies is normality, by both men, women, young and old.
I'm OK James and my behaviour is OK and has been civil.
Oh, and of course no ego, no pats on the back, just the continuation of normality in casual banter with strangers of all persausions and ages and sexes. I prove it everyday.
And as far as reputations go, two of them certainly have been tarnished, whether you can see it or not.
Have a good Chrissy James
"Real people" again?
How would you like us (me) to address domestic violence, Alex? What would you have me do that I'm not already doing? What are you doing to address it?
paddoboy told us about what happened. He invited us to "dribble on" about it.
The relevant cause here aims to reduce the incidence of everyday sexism. In case you missed it. You think there's no problem?
Sounds like the "everyone does it, so it must be okay" defence.
Are these the same "real people" who used to bash gay people, or just hiss at them and call them "poofters" in the street? Are you equally upset that people like me found that behaviour unacceptable?
It is a fallacy to say "Stop looking at that; this other thing is a much bigger problem, so forgot about the original thing". It assumes that people can't walk and chew gum at the same time. It also dismisses issue A when you say leave issue A alone until you've dealt with issues B through Z. And what happens when somebody starts talking about issue B? Well then issue C is a much bigger priority. And so it goes, and it's all an excuse never to change anything.
Let me get this straight. People like me shouldn't be listened to on the topic of sexism because we've never done anything of note in our lives? Is that your argument? Instead, we should listen to you, because you have presumably Achieved Great Things?
Can you appreciate that other people don't necessarily share all of your preferences?
paddoboy doesn't understand how that could be the case. Do you?
No. In a court of law, certain crimes require specific intent, but plenty do not. If you overstay your parking meter, you get a fine, regardless of whether you intended to overstay or not. Your lack of malice doesn't excuse you. Most of the law relating to torts is based on the concept of negligence, which does not require malicious intent.
In life, when dealing with "real people", you need to understand that, often, it is by your actions that others will judge you. They can't see into your heart to know your intent, for good or evil.
Does the originator of the joke matter when you choose to repeat it, repost it, or otherwise pass it on? Or is the content what is important? Or your intent? Or what?
You contradict yourself.
On the one hand, you say that "people use skin colour as a marker" - which would be what "race" entails, roughly speaking - but on the other hand you claim that race is fictitious.
Which is it?
In America, the most common racial designations (and self-identifications) include such things as: caucasian, African American, hispanic, native American, Asian. Why do you pretend to be unaware of this?
As for gender, that can be quite fluid. Like race, it is largely a social construct (as opposed to sex, although even there we run into certain complications). Are you really unaware that there are male, female, transgender, people who don't identify as male or female, etc.? I doubt it.
Medical treatments, in many cases but not all, work equally well for all kinds of human beings. Since I am not a medical professional - and apparently you are - I suggest you seek qualified experts to assist you in matters where human variation is particularly sensitive.
Probably you are aware that men and women differ somewhat anatomically. If you are not, please seek further training to learn about medical procedures that are applicable to people of different sex or gender.
Your failure to appreciate how "gender" is not the same as "sex" is not the fault of any "militant PC".
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Why is your name James? I interact with men and women the same as they interact with me...no hidden agenda, no double meanings, just casual banter which of course will continue.
No, you need to apply your own standards without giving a second thought to what has been normal every day banter between consenting adults, men and women, young and old.
The only poor behaviour is obviously by two others with unfounded accusations and disgusting inferences, in line with there own questionable pretentious standards.
I'm OK James, truly.
No legitimate scrutiny just claims and accusations based on standards the majority do not accept. And I'll take it wherever you like James, despite your disguised threats.
It's not the white old males that started the threads, rather yourself for reasons pretty obvious.
Nup, they are false claims backed up by nothing more then your own ignorance on all the cases I have raised, and the usual philosophical claptrap we here so often in these silly PC arguments.
The ignorance rests with you James...simply because you were not there...and many other reasons already stated.
Have you thought it through James?
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iceaura:
I only just read your reply after writing the posts above. Exactly the point I have been trying to make, only you made it more concisely. Mind you, the people who need to hear this seem to have simple language fly over their heads, so I find I usually have to repeat things in simple words and in different ways to have any hope of getting a message across.
More proof in the pudding.Yes 100% without a second thought. Fijians have a sense of humour and they are able to laugh at themselves as far as being on time is concerned.
By "normality", you mean "tradition". Women have historically put up with everyday sexism. It has been going on forever, so why change anything now? You have no problem with it. It's sad.
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Follow though
stupid people use skin colour as a marker and incorrectly divide humans into various non existent races
No, normality, exactly what I said.
Wrong again James. You know any Fijian aquaintances? Try it.
paddoboy:
I don't think Alex needs you to reply on his behalf.
Your argument that you're excused because lots of other people behave just as badly as you do doesn't fly, I'm afraid. It didn't work before and it's still not working now.
I don't think Alex needs you to reply on his behalf.
What standards do you think I'm applying here?
Your argument that you're excused because lots of other people behave just as badly as you do doesn't fly, I'm afraid. It didn't work before and it's still not working now.
And again with "the majority". Not that you've even done any polling. Again, you make whatever assumptions are necessary to try to excuse yourself. Your logic is fallacious; even your facts are dubious.
If I hadn't split these threads off, the original discussion would have been completely submerged in your bullshit on this topic.
You're now telling me that I shouldn't take your word for how you behaved, are you? Are you saying you've lied to us all? Surely not.
It doesn't matter that there's no sound biological basis for "race". Race exists as a cultural phenomenon. It's actually counter-productive to pretend that it doesn't exist, as you are.Follow though
stupid people use skin colour as a marker and incorrectly divide humans into various non existent races
Follow through on your own line. If there's no race, there can be no racism, right? How is that helpful in addressing present realities of people's current lived experiences?
Hence the problem, with racism (and sexism): when normalized in a society, it is oppressive.
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
And what does this have to do with me?