Everyday racism

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by paddoboy, Dec 9, 2020.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    You are responsible for allowing stupid people to rob and harm and abuse your fellow citizens.
    If you know what you are doing, and have accurate information - of course. It's called "medical care".
    The reality is that you are allowing people to abuse your fellow citizens, thereby reneging on your responsibilities as a citizen of a democracy.
    Humans are not a single race in the US. Pretending they are, to avoid your responsibilities, is lazy and cowardly at best - and often destructive.
     
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    It occurs to me I know whose garages to rob next time I need tools - the ones in Michael's neighborhood. All I have to do is point out that garage thieves are generally stupid people and "ownership" is a sociological construct: Michael won't lift a finger to stop me.
     
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    It occurs to me that you have purposely misinterpreted what Mick has said and means.
    But that seems to be the status quo for this thread and the pretentious moral high ground some have perceive themselves to have hold of.
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    You missed the point again, as is blatantly obvious when you simply got it wrong:

    You do get that, right?

    Yes. Being labelled as a "white male" is the new n-word and is apparently worse than all the connotations that comes with the n-word.

    Have you considered history? Have you considered the role of white men historically and presently and how the n-word and those called "nigger" historically and presently by white men and the horrors involved? "Nigger" is a word invented by white men.

    What? Are you telling me that being called a "white male" is now inherently worse than the history of slavery, lynchings, beatings, murder, genocide, theft and current police aggression and extra-judicial killing of men, women and innocent children by white male police officers, systemic racism that comes with the word "nigger"?

    Seriously? That's your play?

    To a woman of colour who has been on the receiving end of "nigger" and all of its offensive, derogatory connotations..

    Wonders never cease..

    Yes.

    Poor you. As a white male, you are the true victim of racism and sexism.. The real victim of our time.

    Oh, I'm sorry, you expected me to take your complaint seriously?

    Sure.

    The moment you explain how you can come up with this:

    And actually expect to be taken seriously and not mocked.

    As Michael Kimmel, a distinguished professor of sociology at the Stony Brook University, and a leading expert on masculinity, explains: “The ability to use a slur towards someone else comes with a certain kind of institutional power behind it.” Kimmel, who coined the phrase “aggrieved entitlement” in his book, Angry White Men, further asks: “What’s the opposite of the straight white male? It’s the black lesbian, right? Please name all the big corporations who have black lesbians as CEOs. Please tell me the countries that have black lesbians as heads of state or in any political position of power. As far as I can see straight white males still dominate the world. There are still more CEOs named ‘John’ than female CEOs.”

    While straight white male is not a slur, it could be said to be the modern equivalent of Wasp, the acronym coined in the late 50s to refer to the privileged white Americans of Protestant origin who dominated society. Tristan Bridges, an assistant professor who specializes in gender and masculinity at University of California, Santa Barbara, notes that, like Wasp, straight white male has become “a cultural shorthand for a collection of privileges that you carry around with you if you happen to occupy all three of those categories”.

    Bridges believes that the reason some straight white men find the label pejorative is because they’re not “used to having their privilege shoved in their face”. Bridges explains that while the privilege they have is not new, it’s never been so visible. “Straightness, whiteness, and maleness have never been so much in the cultural spotlight. And that changes the experience of it. It feels different. And that’s what this [anger] is a reaction to. Their dads and grandpas get to collect privileges and entitlements without really thinking about it. Now they’re forced to think about it. It’s uncomfortable to feel as though you have benefited from unearned advantage – and that’s what the straight white male label points out.”

    [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/22/has-straight-white-male-become-an-insult-slur]​


    Consider, who invented the Confederate Flag and who invented the racist leanings of that flag?

    Black slaves in the US? Or white males?

    Who invented the word "nigger"? How was it used and in what context? Who kidnapped people, beat them, chained them up and shipped them across oceans to use as chattel while calling them "nigger"? Who used that word while lynching them for looking at a white woman on the street? Who has enjoyed a lifetime of privilege over the theft of land of black people in Australia? Who stole that land from the first people of this country? Who murdered them and committed acts of genocide against them?

    Who, to this day, benefits from the horrors imposed on people of colour?

    Who is responsible for all of that?

    And that's just the tip of the iceberg for the racism for centuries.. Don't even get me started on the sexism imposed by white males upon women for centuries.

    So when you paint yourself as the victim of racism and sexism because you are a white male, you are choosing to deliberately ignore the state in which white males created to maintain their self given superiority and privilege.

    You are seeing it as racist and sexist now, because for the first time in your life, you are being forced to recognise how much you have gained because you are a white male.

    White males invented sexism and racism in the manner in which you abused, dominated, owned, controlled and subjugated people of colour and women. You own it. We don't.

    My condolences for your loss.

    My father's death destroyed me in a way I never thought possible. I will openly admit that I am not doing well and am now in extensive therapy and am haunted by his death and his final days and moments. It was a horrendous experience and I only hope that he was not aware of what was happening to him during that last week and I am horrified that I was not able to do more to provide him with the dignity he deserved and should have received at the end.. Cancer is a horrific disease and the horror it does to the body, particularly at the end of their life.. I will miss my Dad until the day I die.
     
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  8. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    27,543
    Life has an end for all of us. And it is totally destructive and ruinous when another close to us, whom we dearly love, passes away.
    My Mother had dementia, to the stage she sometimes forgot who i was. The last years of her life were in a unit just around the corner from my house, and an understanding from authorities, I would be looking after her full time. Between me and my Mrs [who worked her arse off keeping her clean and such] we succeeded pretty well until one day she had a fall.
    I received a call from the hospital informing me that her condition was serious and she was on life support, without any hope of recovery. I had to go into the hospital and give the OK for the life support system to be turned off.

    Standing there watching them switch off the equipment keeping her alive, and then watching her gradually slip away, is also not very nice and something I have to deal with for the rest of my life.
    She was 86.
     
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    Doubtful. I thought I nailed it. But maybe you can argue otherwise - For example - ?
    Meanwhile: It occurs to me that the immediate pivot to personal attack via vague innuendo, without explanation or argument or even clarification of intent, is familiar - and politically correlated.
    Moral high ground? Yep. (It's hard to avoid, when dealing with the posters of one-line personal innuendo in lieu of argument or discussion of issues, etc).
    Pretentious? Seems unlikely around here. The level of discussion largely precludes it. Do you have an argument, illustration, anything?
     
  10. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    Am I? Who gave me this responsibility? I was under the impression I had palmed such task off to politicians who spend a lot of time assuring me they are equipped to handle the job

    Explain to me how Medical Care of a patient differs between the race social constructs?

    Again you appear to be giving me a high level of responsibility, are you classing me as a vigilante?

    Not a single race in the US. Fascinating

    So All Men Are Born Equal is what?

    Pretending they are, to avoid your responsibilities - OK I give up. Please provide me with details of
    • how many races there are
    • may as well provide a list of how many genders
    • please provide the medical treatment for each race
    • please provide the medical treatment for each gender
    • please provide the medical treatment for each mix of race + gender combination
    and I will attempt to treat everyone equal while attending to their individual needs as per your kindly provided list

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    Seriously?

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  11. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Back at you..you miss the point.

    No recognition that what you are going on about..sexism..finds its best example in your over the top indulgence in "sexism" ..you dont get that do you. Please justify your behaviour....

    I bet I know more history than you do...but tell me how does the bad actions of others in the past justify you being abusive, a bully and both racist and sexist. Time to accept no matter how bad the situation before you little is ever achieved by playing the game with their rules. Dont be sexist and dont be racist and dont think that is not what you are doing..that is easy to do but dont fall into that trap.
    You simply can not generalise..all males are bad...well that is the basic thing with racism and sexism ..its a mindless generalisation without reference to the actual reality...
    So do folk like Billvon fall into your white male box??? Or any other member here?

    How does anything from the past not make " white male" sexist and racist.

    Justifying it by "look at how bad they were" is no excuse to lower yourself to a their disgusting level.

    Where have I sought to diminish the countless wrongs? Do you actually think I am unaware of the horrors hidden in history...I tell you certainly not.

    Me pointing out "white male" being racist and sexist needs nothing further and certainly for you to defend obvious racism and sexism is just terrible..more so because you are blind to the point I make.

    If we are to get anywhere then we need to stop being racist and sexist.. you surely must conceed that obvious fact...or are you happy just to go on offering more hate as a solution...it won't work.

    While you behave no better than those you seek to correct you will not change a thing...

    Well if you dont see why one is the same as the other it is only you who can look forward to being mocked...who are all these white males you hate and have more than a small percentage deserving of your hate..get real...you hate some imaginary "white male" who is simply not representative of the white males spread all over the world who are actually of the belief that racism and sexism should be stamped out.

    The folk like me, my father my grandfather, my uncles, my brothers in law, my best two mates and countless other guys who are not your stereotype of choice..not racists not sexist and not your " white male" and if for no other reason you should drop the term because it is just hate that poisons your rationality.

    Yes that would be it...you are crazy but stick with me you will pull thru.

    Is "white male" sexist and racist? Yes or no...

    I think I know only too well how you feel.

    I manage by thinking how many people people he helped and how he set a positive example and left the world better thanks to his input. Also I know he was proud of me that he raised a decent human being....I know self praise has little value but I have no enemies and help people without seeking reward...and kind to humans and all living creatures..I have a pet spider who hunts insects via the light from my tablet...I expect you would kill such s poor creature..I dont hurt anything and snuff out little lives casually without thought....

    I am sure you could think about your father in a similar positive manner to the way I try and manage my loss.

    You must know that he would have been extremely proud of you and as a father myself that is the only sort of pride I will allow in my life.

    I wish you all the best and if you ever need someone to talk to I would be honoured to be that person. Our positions really are very similar, our views on wanting a better world are really the same..my thing is to avoid the hatred the bad people deserve and to be better.

    It is easy to try and fight the wrong enemy...history is one thing but the way hollywood perpetuates negative stereo types is really the main issue add to that the church basically teaching folk that woman are just chattles ..I mean do they still have marriage services where the woman has to promise to love honour and obey? A promise to love? A promise to obey? And respect ( honour) as a matter of contract!!!! And you wonder why we have a problem...its not the slave traders from 100 years ago its the bullshit from both the church and from hollywood..in my humble view.

    Imagine if the church promoted equality between men and women...imagine if hollywood presented woman as more than just "objects"..also do you know why slave traders thought owning slaves was ok? It was gods plan dont you know..he made these folk who were used to the heat so they could work for good christians...you cant attack the Paddos of the world and think you are being effective...he is for all purposes to innoccent...lay the blame where it deserves to go.
    All the best for the break.
    Alex
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,644
    I agree. But we are all responsible in reducing society's stupidity. If you, for example, ignore that there is prejudice against gays because "they are exactly like everyone else" - it becomes harder to fight that prejudice. Acknowledging that such prejudices exist is crucial in being able to fight them.
    Not really true. You can bring a case to the supreme court and get interracial marriage allowed. You can oppose racist cops who murder blacks because "well, he was black." As long as you recognize the problem.
     
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,644
    Two. Just like there is black and white. But that doesn't mean that there is no gray, or that some things are neither black nor white.
     
  14. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    I don't, never have

    Have always done so

    The gray region is where the militant PC set up camp maintaining each gender they produce is distinct. Further the claim is made gender can be changed just by them deciding to feel different today

    I accept you state two genders exist with grey region. So have you a number being claimed by others? My last information, about 70 +

    Regarding self gender assignment, this is strange. I have no problem with any person self-assessment of their gender as long as they are prepared to instruct me in what way do I need? require? to change my medical treatment of what ever they have presented with at the hospital

    https://teentalk.ca/learn-about/gen...different gender,identities then we've listed.

    Not sure I am qualified to handle the following but considered it is not a life threatening or posing any danger condition I would wing it

    A woman who is attracted to objects has married a briefcase

    https://www-news24-com.cdn.ampproje...d-to-objects-has-married-a-briefcase-20201218

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  15. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Thank you. I will be alright. I've been told the haunted feeling and what I am experiencing can take a year or more before it starts to fade away and better memories can take their place. It was difficult for me because as an only child, and my mother having survived a brain lymphoma that destroyed her memory and left her in a home with severe dementia, I was kind of on my own in that loss, if that makes sense? I had people around me supporting me, but the only other person(s) who I could have shared it with and should have, no longer had the mental capacity and ability to cope with it.. I know my father would have understood and would have been proud of how I fought for him when he could not to try to give him a more dignified death. I know what his wishes were and I tried to uphold them, but there were some things I just could not do and I know he would have understood that and he would not have wanted me to go through that.. But the feeling of guilt is still there and the sense that I failed him somehow will always be there. I miss my father in a way that I never thought would be possible and the fact that he's not there any more....

    It will take a long time. I was very very close to my Dad. Closer than I was to my Mum. It was a privilege to have been there with him for that journey as he would have been with me if the situation were reversed, but I so wish that I did not have to be and that it never happened. There were moments where the pain was so bad that I would give anything and everything to reverse the situation so that I would not have to lose him because there are so many moments where it feels unbearable. This will be my first every Christmas and Birthday that I will not spend with my father. It will be very difficult. As I am sure you will also experience and understand.

    Sorry, this is a very difficult time for me.
     
  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    27,543
    Just the fact Mick is saying we are all human and he treats each human the same.
    The personal attacks against me are obvious, not that it matters. It just shows the extent some will go to to shove there pretentious so called standards down my throat. They wont.
    Obvious, jumping on a jocular statement addressed to no one in particular and in line with the thread it was taken from.
    And of course the continued damn lie and pretense denying that normal banter between people, as I have described, is the norm, without question, on both sides of the equation, men and women, young and old. It is.
    And I'm pretty sure that it isn't going to change anytime soon.
     
  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    But that's the point..the excuse Paddo uses is in effect ..it's just Aussie banter... and then you say the same...

    Look I really am not in disagreement with so much of what you say, other than " white male" is not racist and sexist... racism and sexism is not a situation where you fight fire with fire...As I said I find the term along with all racist and sexist stuff just wrong...my upset is not one side or the other as you seem to think...and I can accept why you would think I am anti the cause ... I get upset when you all attack Paddo when clearly he is not malicious ... moreover he is not the problem in my view..it is a culture crafted from Hollywood fantasy and ancient views on the place of women.

    Perhaps what upsets me most is you seem to think I am ignorant of what goes on in the world and the inequity that most think nothing about.


    I understand a little how angry you must feel but telling him to grow a set really, in my view, diminishes your position.

    Yeh I did didn't I. Going after the Paddos of the world just fails to address the cause...Hollywood and the church are at fault..the two represent our culture unfortunately and both tell us both racism and sexism is ok..in my view.

    Yeh I can see what you mean but don't blame me for the culture I would change it in a flash if I could...and that is my point or rather a point I would present..there are white men like me, my father , most men I know, who would love to change things..but the Christians and their type control the culture...
    I guess I just do not like being placed in the group who I really don't like, don't support and would cull them in a flash ..by cull I mean separate them from the herd...I said cull the other day to someone and they thought I meant kill folk...not me..just remove them from power and influence.

    Yeh but why make out that I am part of the mob who sees that as acceptable. I don't like the Lord's prayer on opening of parliament and the catering to one flavour...Can't you see why being lumped in a group I passionately dislike could be upsetting?

    Shit that's news to me..do you think I live in a log and only come out every leap year...it irritates me you think you are the only one who has a problem with these people...as a caring person do you think I am blind or moreover happy with these turkeys...then you call me one of them ..that is offensive. Anyways you don't understand me so there is no point me going on...but I will try.

    Why? I don't see you as black or white or brindle. Why should I alter my stated opinion because you are black..My best mate was black, we played guitar all over, I dont see black like some do..I have black relations, both my nephews married "black" girls, I think my great grandfather was black,...my last girl friends were black...and yes I am just one of those racists who say that shit to make out they are not racists..that is the party line isn't it??? Yet my truth can be examined and will not show me to be one of these "white males" in the context you use..as I said the term is racist and sexist..that is the bottom line..anyways it offends me and that should be enough for you not to call me that..think of how we view those who fly the confederate flag..we recognise that folks feelings count ....

    Yeh I can go with that...just don't call me or folk like me "hateful names.

    As I said I like studying history and when you look back it's just terrible..one thing that really ticks me off..they always refer to Caesar as a great general this and that and hold him up to be respected and all he was in my book a murder and slave trader..200 odd villages..kill everyone but those he could sell as slaves...and as you go back there have been many "white" slaves...and the bible still has rules on how to treat your slaves..you can beat them so long as they don't die within a couple of days...the good book the key pin to our culture....
    And I am not too impressed with the Christian treatment of all other cultures..read up on South America for depressing details of those mongrels.

    Anyways I will say a good post from you ...

    Alex
     
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    Yes same here. I will think of you and I hope you think of me on Christmas day...and silly but what makes it worse was his father my grandfather was Christmas..that was his name and all I think when I hear Christmas is my grandfather the father of my father... please try and be strong and positive ..think of the good times..he would want that.
    Alex
     
  19. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,644
    People can claim anything they like. I have not seen anything like what you claim - that people have defined 70 separate genders. What I HAVE seen are at least 60 terms used to DESCRIBE gender, like agender (no gender) AFAB (assigned female at birth) butch (manlike) or cisgender (gender matches sex at birth.) Is that what you saw? Those aren't separate genders, just words to describe gender.

    It's important to distinguish between two things - sex and gender. Sex is biological. Gender is a societal construct. There are two sexes, with again gray areas. (Google androgen insensitivity syndrome, for example.) There are two genders with an even wider range between them, including no gender at all.

    However, since gender is created by society, we may well see new genders created in the future. Remember the term "girly man" used as an insult in the 80's and 90's? That was an early, and facetious, example of someone creating a new category of gender.
    Well, that's a fetish, which is a little different.

    And they are not married in any real sense of the term. From an article on the story: "The wedding was conducted online by a friend, and isn't official or legal."
     
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    The obsession with having things "shoved down their throat" is almost as characteristic a field mark as the inability to use "ad hominem" correctly.
    As far as innuendo and attempted personal attack - that's on you. Quoted, you were. Get a mirror.
    - - -
    That's not what I quoted and responded to directly. And it's not what he said elsewhere, actually - there's a difference between saying all humans are the same race, which in the US is simply false, and saying he treats each human the same, which on this planet is simply false (children? genders? ages? the good, the bad, and the ugly? No, he doesn't.)

    Nevertheless, by chance, it was included in my response - it's muddled into the actual posting, so the response addresses it.

    So: The vanity of thinking he - or any American - can "treat each human the same", even as if race did not exist, is a common delusion but one I addressed only indirectly. My response was directed toward another claim - that races are "fiction", the claimant knows that they don't exist, and so the claimant is not responsible for the racism they allow to be inflicted on their neighbors.

    That's what I responded to - the claimed irresponsibility, the refusal to acknowledge one's obligations in a community.
    Bullshit.
    If you don't like being confronted with the moral high ground, quit taking the low ground for yourself. There's no way to respond to that bs without implying a morality.
    - - - -
    You did, by accepting the privileges and rights.
    If you don't want it, you can always renounce them and find somewhere else to live.
    By the fact that diseases and public health issues and responses to treatment differ between the races in the US, on one hand;
    and the fact that racial biases and unfounded presumptions influence the kind of care routinely delivered by medical professionals, unless consciously and diligently opposed whenever the patient belongs to a poorly researched and treated race, on the other.
    I'll be sticking to the topic, instead.
    As I posted, in plain English, I classify you as a citizen and neighbor and member of a community governed by democratically chosen representation.
    In the US, depending on region, between four and eight. (Jews are sometimes but not always a separate race - likewise Middle Eastern folk, natives of northern India, Polynesians, etc. But black/brown/red/and white are standard nationwide).
    Yep. You're welcome.
     
  21. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    27,543
    To quote a song by Roger Miller....
    "Dang me, dang me
    They ought to take a rope and hang me,
    High upon the highest tree"
    Again and the crux of the matter, in a few easy steps...[1] I indulge [as a normal everyday bloke] in common everyday banter.
    [2]Sometimes that banter is initiated by me, sometimes it is initiated by the other party/
    [3] That banter maybe between two males, [me obviously being one] or a of the opposite sex.
    [4] No objection of any underhanded notion, inference, or sublime message, is ever contemplated by either party.
    [5] If [speaking on my part] there was any offence taken, or even looked like being taken, the banter would cease.
    [6] Claims by others that offences may exist but circumstances prevent the other party objecting, is total unwarranted, unevidenced and baseless nonsense and simply excuse fabrication and fabricated philosophical claptrap.
    Mick simply was saying, he treats all humans as humans.

    There are pages and pages of stuff on the Internet, with regards to PC and such, and other then the direct and generally accepted definition of PC..."Political correctness (adjectivally: politically correct; commonly abbreviated PC) is a term used to describe language, policies, or measures that are intended to avoid offense or disadvantage to members of particular groups in society." [from Wiki]
    which I agree with and adhere to, the rest of the nonsense, excuses and such that this thread has dregged up is philosophical claptrap.

    To quote Alex not directly, but his message...Our society is not perfect. There are rapes, sexual assaults, murder etc etc every day of the week, by the dregs of society and those with an inherited evil intent.
    Attempting to change every day common banter between every day common people [I'm one of them] of both sexes, like "Hey you going Love?" or "Can I be of assistance Love?" will not help alleviate the down side of a modern society.

    Yesterday: Waiting in line at Woolies [I generally use the automated machine, but there was only two that used cash, my method of payment and the rest by card] with half a trolley of goods, an old lady behind me [probably same age as me] but with a walking frame and one lone item, tapped me on the shoulder and asked " 'scuse me Luv, I only have one item, can I get in before you?" Me: Sure no problem Luv!
    Let me assure you, I was not insulted in her addressing me that way...I did not imagine any sublime message or any intent of sexual assault in her calling me Luv! And I'm pretty confident the poor old thing, did not read any sublime message or sexual intent in my reply.
    I could relate such incident everyday, every time I interact. So do not dare to tell me what is or what isn't appropriate.

    And therein lies the problem. Let me say again. I and the majority of every day common folk, are not going to have the silly excesses of PC or whatever term you want to put on it, dictate the way well meaning people communicate.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
  22. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,421
    I'm a white male. That's just a fact. I don't find it offensive.

    To claim that the term "white male" is as offensive - or more offensive - than the term "nigger" is insane, or else indicative of somebody with a very large barrow to push.

    Who wanted to divert this thread onto the topic of race, anyway? Is somebody so uncomfortable with a discussion about sexism that they felt compelled to try to change the topic?
     
  23. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,421
    Your wife knows you well.

    Suppose you were in the bank, say, being served by a person of Fijian background who did not know you. I wonder whether, if they were slow in attending to you, you would say to them "Bloody Fijians. Always working on bloody Fijian time!"

    I'm guessing that, if you were to do this, you'd come away with yet another story about how the bank teller and you had a good old laugh and nobody was offended, and you'd make the point to anybody who would listen about what a great banterer you are.
     

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