so did i and i dont even live in the country. That was reported on the news the day before (maybe 2 days), wasnt really payng atention because it doesnt effect me. And as i keep saying its no good preparing for the best case, if the best case happens you use it to show that you are READY if the worst happens. You prepare for the worst and hope for the best and act as quick as you can and if that means a few peoples toes get steped on because the phone calls dont go in the right order who cares
Yes, but it wasn't, was it? When it hit land, it was a Cat 4 and it did NOT hit the city of New Orleans directly ....it hit about 40 miles to the east in Gulfport, Mississippi ....which was literally destroyed (by we've heard very little about it, haven't we???). If .....if .....the levees had held, none of this would have been much of a storm for New Orleans. One little spot, one little place ...in the NEW levee construction ....gave way and let in the water. Who would have, COULD have guessed??? Baron Max
That's true of most people here ......yet they're all throwing out blame as tho' they know what the hell actually happened and why! ...LOL! Hindsight is a wonderful thing, ain't it?? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Baron Max
It's simple. For years and years and years. People have been saying that the levees aren't being maintained properly. For years and years and years. The budget alloted to maintenance for the levees have shrunk and shrunk and shrunk. Less every year. The army corps of engineers state that they need this much money to maintain the levees. The government says they're only getting a tenth of that money. And less next year. This was a category 5 storm. It was known days before it reached New Orleans. People knew that if it reached New Orleans that it would not be good. All your talk of "Well nobody KNEW that the levees would fail... blah blah blah..." is dumb. By your logic, nobody knows shit until it happens. By your logic there is no such thing as emergency preparedness. We apparently have to wait until we KNOW that something will happen that needs assistance (i.e. until after it's already happened.) You can say what you want. You can say nobody knew the levees would break. You can say nobody knew the storm would hit New Orleans. You can say that the storm didn't even hit New Orleans directly. Say all these things and more. And that doesn't change the fact that all those things were guessed at prior to the catastrophe. They were guessed at with pretty high levels of confidence. People all over the country (except Washington D.C. and Texas) were cringing as they saw this monster storm heading straight to New Orleans. You can say that nobody knew, but you'd be lying. People knew. Anyway, the point is, again, not that the levees broke. Not that the city of New Orleans is a disaster area. The point is that it took 5 days to get food and water into the city. Food and water is sitting in warehouses all over the country. Are you going to tell me that there aren't warehouses full of MRE's? Full of bottled water? That they couldn't have been loaded on planes or helicopters and dropped into the city on the first day? Or the second day at the latest? Why did it take 5 days for food and water to reach the city? There can be no excuse for this. None. You, Max, seem bent on defending the federal government. Whatever. The fact of the matter is that the federal government dropped the ball on this. It can't be denied. The state and local goverments were also deplorable in this. There's enough blame to go around to all levels of government. But don't think that your precious George Bush can escape the blame being levied at him. A real president would have been getting things done that first day. Press conferences don't fix problems. Press conferences merely are a form of political damage control. The government is too wrapped up in public relations to actually work for the public anymore. They view themselves as salesmen rather than servants. George Bush is my butler. But he thinks he's my king. He needs to remember his place.
Well, Invert, we also "know" that a major earthquake is going to hit southern California, too, right? So .....tell us what to do NOW to avert any disaster! Baron Max
Yes. We do know that there is going to be a major earthquake that will hit California. We also know that Yellowstone will erupt into a supervolcano devastating the entire world. We also know that Mount Ranier will blow and wipe out a good portion of Tacoma, Olympia, and Seattle. We know a lot of things are going to happen. But none of these equate with a category 5 hurricane advancing across the Gulf of Mexico, heading straight for New Orleans. You keep trying to act as though this was some crazy freak thing that nobocy could predict. Like people were just sitting around and next thing you know this huge hurricane appeared out of nowhere. Like magic. Or an earthquake. Or a volcanic eruption. Why did everyone in the country except for you and Bush's administration know that the hurricane was a cat 5 and was headed straight for New Orleans? Why did everyone in the country know that those levees were very likely to fail under such a storm? Why did everyone in the country cringe as they waited for news of the catastrophe that they knew was on the way? Everyone but you. And Bush's administration. You can say that nobody KNEW. But you'd be splitting hairs. The fact of the matter is that the percentages of possible devastation were pretty damn well known. The government dropped the ball. Now. Let's just drop all this talk about how the various levels of government had days prior to the event in which to prepare. Let's say that this was something that just happened with no forewarning. Ok? It was a magical hurricane. An invisible one that just appeared as soon as it struck the coast. Ok? Now we're in your fantasy world. Right? And. So. In this fantasy world the government bears no blame for having mobilized National Guard units prior to the event. Right? Right. But they do bear blame for not being able to get food into the city for 5 fucking days. You keep ignoring this point because you have no fucking leg to stand on and you fucking know it. It took 5 days to get food and water into the city. There are warehouse filled to the rafters with MRE's and bottled water. You know it. I know it. Everybody fucking knows it. All it would have taken is an order to put that food and that water onto helicopters and airplanes and have them dropped into the city. This could have been, SHOULD have been done on the very first day. The second at the latest. But it wasn't. Case closed. As to Southern California... Look at your words: "...what to do NOW to avert the disaster!" Avert. How are you going to avert the disaster? How are you going to stop the earthquake? You're not. You can do exactly what they're doing. Building on stringent anti-earthquake building techniques. Teach emergency preparedness in schools and at all levels of society. Keep supplies nearby for the eventual need (this is accomplished through military warehouses which allow a cycling of food and water supplies.) There are a thousand and one ways to prepare for the disaster. To mitigate the damage done as much as possible. And these things are being done. So. What's your point? If you'd asked me what should have been done in New Orleans to mitigate an eventual hurricane, then I'd say maintaining the levees would be the best bet. I'm not the only one to say this. It's been said for years. The fact of the matter is that the failure to maintain the levees is a crucial error in judgement at all levels. This can't be denied. But the disaster in New Orleans isn't about the levees being broken. It's about people dying from dehydration because food and water haven't been sent in for 5 days. That's the issue.
Food can wait in emergencies, but water can not wait. People can die from dehydration quickly. Water is needed for fire fighting. When the big Earthquake hits there will be no running water in LA for months. Many water tanks should be built. Cell towers and police radio towers should have their own back up generators. Not just for LA and earthquakes, the whole nation should have slightly paid forces of local people to back up the police fire and utility workers during emergency. These forces would train maybe three weekends a year. This would be a larger more amatuer non-military national guard like force. These people need to know deal with downed power lines. These people need to own chainsaws because it will be thier job to get their local roads cleared of rubble and downed trees. The command structure for these people should be set up so that they can be mobilized by themself or by the local police and no top down managemet from State govenors or the president would slow them down. A national internet bulletin board should be created in which at any time, (not just emergencies) people can post messages under their names for all to see and people can place private messages in somebodys mailbox at a cost of a 10 cents a message.
See? That shows just how much you know about the situation ....it was the break in the levee that cause all of the problems ....ALL of the problems! If the levee hadn't broken, they'd have been partying on Bourdon Street an hour after the storm. .....LOL!! How strange that you argue without even the slightest knowledge about things. All ye're doin' is parroting what the news media tells you ...nothing more, just a parrot. Baron Max
And how do you get the water to where it's needed without pipelines? And that's assuming that the water tanks survive ...which they probably wouldn't! How do you get fuel to them? New Orleans hospitals and emergency service areas all had backup generators but couldn't get fuel to last more than a few hours. Unless people plan for their own survival, on an individual basis, there'll be many deaths from water and food shortages. There simply is no other way ...one can't and shouldn't depend on others to save your sorry-assed butt in an emergency! Baron Max
Ever heard of helicopters? As to the tanks being destroyed in the quake. Earth to Max... Hello? Are you receiving? The warehouses for supplies would have to be spread out throughout the region. You know. That old dig about your eggs and your basket. No. If I was parroting what the news media had to say then I'd be saying that the real issue is racism and that George Bush doesn't like black people. Instead, I'm focusing on where the emergency response failed. The failure of the levees is the root cause of the situation. Yes. But the failure in the response was in getting supplies to the people that were stranded without any supplies. It's just that simple, Max. Go ahead and ignore it and throw out your strawman about how the hurricane could have been prevented. Doesn't matter to the real problem. Anyway. It's pointless talking to you. You're worse than a troll. You know as well as everyone else that you're full of shit with all your strawmen and red herrings and whatever other logical fallacies are rife in what you call posting but I call sewage. So. Enjoy your inane conversations. I have no use for you.
The big tanks are kept filled. They will not break. If fire trucks can get to them, then they can refill the fire truck tanks from the big tanks. I am not talking about water for showers. Just drinking water and water for fire trucks. Store some fuel with the radio tower generators. Even the big earthquake will not cut off transportation in LA the way that transportation has been cut off in New Orleans. Bridges may fall but if you can keep the private cars off the roads emergency vehicles will still be able to get arround. The problem with the big earthquake is that buildings collapse. This will kill and wound many people. It could kill many times more people than Katrina will without stopping emergency transportation. You get no warning wit an earthquake. The safest place to be during an earthquake is in the middle of the street.
nirakar why is there no volentieer state emergency service there? Here we have the SES who respond to help with search and rescue, police searches, clearing roads and removing trees from houses after storms, sandbagging in floods ect and they dont get paid a dollor, we pay for there equiptment but they also fundraise for that too
In the USA we professionalize everything. We need a graduate degrees in shoe lace tying and a national security clearance before we are allowed to tie somebody elses child's shoelace. Administrators are terrified of lawsuits. We don't do the right thing without the threat of a lawsuit and we also sue each other too much. If somebody blows their back out lifting a sand bag as a volunteer for the city, the city will not help with the medical bills because somebody else would say if you helped him you must help me also. We have no national health insurance. The guy that blew his back out will sue the city. We don't let "unqualified" people do much. We are not allowed to use common sense or do anything for ourselves. This is why we have the most expensive and inefficient medical system in the world and this is also why we have no volunteer state emergency service. In rural areas we still have volunteer fire departments left over from the days when people were allowed to help.
Even a severe earthquake might leave some roads intact in Los Angeles. The soil isn't very saturated here. btw I'm from Los Angeles.
See we have CFA's (or or whatever they are called in different states) which are all volentieers and also we have Metro firefighters (which are paid professionals) the main reason we pay the metro fighters is because they have to respond a hell of a lot more often (when you take into account house fires, first responce, car acidents, rescue, hazchem, ect) there are also department of conservation firefighters which work in the fireseasion fighting bushfires in the national parks and state forests. Then there is the SES which is EVERYWHERE, both metro and country doing different jobs in different areas. In metro area's they mainly deal with storm damage and that sort of emergency as well as helping in police search and rescue (altho in NSW police rescue deals mainly with the rescues), in country area's sometimes they are the ones charged with hazchem or car crash rescues rather than the CFA, it just depends on what each station does (rembering in CFA area's members are sometimes members of BOTH orgainsations). In bushfires they asist police in evacs and sometimes help out making fire breaks ect. The point is that these are nowhere near untrained, they train to do there jobs but they just arnt paid. To be honest the same can be said for alot of organisations here including redcross, st johns ambo's, CFA, SES and even the older scout organisations will help out. As for who pays when they get injured thats easy, there is a goverment compusry insurance on every kind of work (i am sure it includes voleentiers like the CFA) called work cover, they deal with it. As for the scouts ect they are covered by there OWN public liability insurance. Also medical is easy (and a hell of a lot cheeper) because all public hospitals are covered by medicare if it doesnt come under workcover. So we can aford to help eachother because we know that others will be there to help us, guess thats why we can move so much faster than you can, and if more bodys are needed then the army comes in and helps out. Even when its not an emergency the millatry helps as part of corse, (ie the navy is almost always involved in search and rescue ops ect). Why the hell cant your goverments (all of them) stop worrying about red tape and actually DO something and why are your people so selfish (as a group) that they dont help there nabors when they need it???
I think the USA could learn a few things from Australia. I don't think most Americans are too selfish as individuals but our institutions and leaders seem to think that selfishness is synonomous with intelligence and efficiency and vitue. American industrialists used to take pride in making great products. Now our corporate leaders seem to take pride in finding profits in financial analysis, accounting gimmicks, and selling a brand image. These are all zero sum economic activities. They don't create wealth they capture wealth from others. This new economy may be pushing us towards selfish thinking. We individuals move so much that we often give up on getting to know our neighbors. That might play a role.
What I find interesting about all of the suggestions is .....who pays for all of this??? We yell about taxes being to high, yet we expect the government to pay for even more stuff! Would you expect, say, the taxpayers of New Orleans and North Dakota to help pay for "prepardness" for San Fransisco or Los Angeles? And if the federal government is expected to pay for it all, then shouldn't they have a say in how things are built and done in SF or LA? I.e., instead of paying all that money, why not just not permit anyone to live in danger zones? One of the problems with all of it is that it's forcing the USA to become more and more socialist ...which would mean less and less freedoms. We bitch about Big Brother now, but y'all want to make Big Brother even bigger!! Why? I just don't think that our federal government was ever intended to be the baby-sitter for us all. And the more we make it our baby-sitter, the more regulations we're going to have to deal with ....is that what you want? Baron Max
I was in L.A. during the Northridge, Whittier, and Sylmar earthquakes. I felt the Sylmar quake, it was a little stronger than a parade of big trucks rumbling down the street. I felt the Whittier quake but since I was driving I merely thought that my car had hit a bump I didn't see. I didn't feel the Northridge quake at all. What people refer to as "L.A." is a huge metropolitan area that encompasses about fifty cities within a fifty mile radius--or more if you count Orange County which the people there hate. If you were ten miles away from the epicenter of any of these big quakes you might have lost some glassware or your chimney might have collapsed. (No new brick construction, at least not without rebar.) Five miles away your house might have sustained serious damage--but the odds are against it. Many people who actually lived in Northridge at the time of their quake had no physical damage, just spoiled food due to the power outage and stuff like that. You want to extrapolate to a 10.0 earthquake, the once-in-a-millennium variety? Okay. Where is the epicenter? The San Andreas fault is hundreds of miles long, and the other faults through southern California go a long way. Odds are that the epicenter will be out in the desert or maybe in a suburb twenty miles from city center like Northridge, Whittier, and Sylmar. The skyscrapers downtown are all built on gimbals (the reason they repealed the thirteen-story height limit around 1968). They'd shake and rattle and some people inside who were on the stairs or something like that might get hurt, but the buildings won't fall down. Every pane of glass installed in California within recent history is safety glass, so no one is going to get speared by flying shards. So you want to postulate an epicenter close to downtown L.A., making this a once-in-a-million-years earthquake for the people who take a chance on living or working there? Fine. So all the skyscrapers fall over. L.A. is NOT Manhattan. The skyscraper zone is incredibly small, about half a mile wide and a mile long. There are a few thirty-story buildings in Pasadena, Glendale, and a few other suburbs. L.A.'s urban sprawl goes HORIZONTALLY, not vertically. The median building height is ONE STORY! Some of the freeway interchanges downtown might collapse upon each other like that bridge in the last San Francisco earthquake. Outside the target area very few roads will be blocked by wreckage. The fire trucks and ambulances won't have any trouble getting anywhere except the skyscraper zone itself, and the city does have an impressive fleet of helicopters. The death toll, epicenter directly beneath the Arco Towers? Say one fourth of the skyscrapers come down. None of them are anywhere near the size of the WTC, they only have one or two thousand people inside. No more than 50,000 will die in skyscraper collapses--if it hits during working hours! If it hits at night, make that about 5,000. Add a few hundred more people squashed in their cars by collapsing freeway overpasses. Further than five miles from the epicenter, fires will be out by the next day. People trapped in collapsed buildings more than five miles from the epicenter will be rescued before they have a chance to starve. Ten miles from the epicenter the electricity will be back online within 48 hours. Some businesses will repoen then, the curfews will be lifted, and traffic won't be much worse than normal. Two miles from the epicenter the rubble will be cleared and the majority of the buildings, which weren't seriously damaged, will be open, within two months. The skyscraper zone near the epicenter will be closed off for a long time. The rubble will need to be cleared and every building that didn't fall down will require an extensive inspection to see if it was damaged too badly to save. There will be quite a rebuilding project in downtown L.A. But like the WTC, nobody will think of abandoning the place. That's the worst case scenario. And it's based on the premise that the epicenter will just happen to be in the worst place, which is up to the law of averages. If it's in Whittier or Northridge again or out in the desert or the ocean, there will be far less destruction. Then, guess what? The next 10.0 is a thousand years off, and it will probably hit some place thirty miles away from the last place. The next HURRICANE is going to hit Florida NEXT YEAR! The next big one to hit New Orleans will probably be within the lifetime of the younger people living there. There is just no comparison between hurricanes and earthquakes. I'll take an earthquake any day. Everything is fine and then it hits for a few seconds or maybe a minute, and then it stops and everything is fine again unless you're one of the extremely few people on top of it. A hurricane leaves you in a state of anxiety for DAYS, even if it doesn't hit!
