Dywyddyr-false beleifs.???

yes but the mechanics for what we are talking about cost way too much..
and they usually just help you find what the problem is and how to help yourself to fix it..(extreme cases,drugs are required..)
IOW we have the answers to how to fix ourselves,its just a matter of being able to put our attention on it..most of the time that help requires a trusted sounding board in the form of another person..

 

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On the contrary, Clueluss's example would be an indication of why we can't do it ourselves.
The human mind doesn't work logically and so little is known of how it works, especially to the general public, I'd say that the chances of messing up considerably outweigh the chances of "fixing" things if you ever manage to have an actual result.

 

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we are comparing ourselves to our own opinion of what others are worth..
they are doing the same..the measureing stick we are using to measure our worthyness is warped...i think you are worth more than me..you think i am worth more than you (nows the time to emphasise we are not actually talking about each other...

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)
who is right?(works the other way around too..)

thought so..

it just means you can't do it..to label it any other way devalues you.

if i believed everyone in the world knows how to tie their shoes and i didn't know how to ties my shoes,the fault in this case would be that i am assumeing everyone else knows how to tie their shoes..
not that i am worthless cause i can't do it..

do you believe in the stuff you cannot change more than the stuff you can change?
maybe if we just focus on the stuff we can change,it can have a butterfly effect to open up things so we can change the things we think we cannot..

its too easy to focus our attention on the things we cannot do..
on what is wrong with us..
also IOW;
it is too easy to focus on what is wrong with the other person, too easy to devalue them cause they also make mistakes..
(at this point i would disscuss about how ppl test others 'feelings of worthlessness' to learn how to respond to their own 'feeling of worthlessness')

 

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Agreed, but the belief one has is that it's oneself.

I know what you mean sort of, but if EVERYONE can do it but you then waht does that mean?

You're still giving the rational, logical approach.
It doesn't work like that.

Aha! Yes, but knowing what the underlying belief is, is a different question altogether.

No no no.
It's not a question of focussing since the belief is subconscious and doesn't "activate" until the support structure is challenged.

 

to try and summon things up a bit...

who is it that gives us our sense of worth?
is it up to ourselves? we tend to exagerate our own sense of worth,whether it be in the negative (depression etc) or the positive (granduer etc)
is it up to someone else? they do not know you, they haven't been around you that long.. .(you have been with you your entire life..) they have no clue as to how you think..

we tend to group together with the ppl who feel the same..ppl with different experiances to help us validate our own sense of worth..

ppl are fallible..i often use the 'worthless' measuring stick(not a good analogy) when assigning value to another person..IE.. what are they doing to make themselves feel more worthy?
are they trying to make themselves look better by pointing out everyone elses mistakes(like its a contest..i can point out more things wrong with you than you can with me.neener neener.)?
are they the 'can't be wrong' type,no matter what you say to them you are wrong,they are right..
or the bully type( tell me i am worthless and i will make you feel worthless)

there are pry way more types than i know,but i hope i am making my point..

the types i get along with the best are the seekers of knowledge and wisdom..those who ask to learn..the ones not interested in who is right and who is wrong but value any knowledge in any form..(that doesn't mean they know how to use it...lol)

 

See previous post of mine.
It's not "up to us" in that sense.

 

i have difficulty argueing with this line of though as i do not believe in 'everyone knows'

no it doesn't..but this is the best way i can explain it..

if you are saying there is no way to determine what our subconscience is doing, i would disagree..
if you know A=B
and B=C
then one can determine that A must = C
( i tried to put forth more analogies..but had to delete them as they started to sound pretty confusing..)

when it is challenged is when the focus becomes involuntary..
are you saying we cannot voluntarily examine the contents of our subconscience?

i say we know what content is in our subconscience..it has to go through the conscience to get to the subconscience..
the subconscience is just experianced at hiding things from us..it doesn't want us to see anything that makes us feel worthless..

just cause it makes us FEEL worthless does not mean we ARE worthless..

as far as

who is it up to?

 

Some false belief categories....
beliefs about their motivations for doing something - which they (sometimes) later realize was about something else.
beliefs about their skill levels - both over and underestimating
beliefs about their reasons for liking and disliking other people - one example: for some people it is easier to find fault with someone than to notice how envious they feel.
beliefs about what happened to them in the past - for example, taking too much or too little responsibility for what went wrong in a relationship
beliefs about one's attractiveness
belief that what is actually guilt is love
belief that what is actually mistreating oneself is actually something else that sounds more refined and good like 'discipline' 'self-control' 'living life to the fullest' 'always looking at the bright side' as a few examples of ideas that one can ruin one's life with.
beliefs that one is acting in the best interests of another person - whew, do we go wrong on this one a lot.
beliefs related to our 'openness' to learning or people or changing our minds.


there's a few.

 

Meh, my example may be bad, but at least i know what I mean.

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Ah no.
Because we can rationalise our reasons we are entirely capable of keeping our subconscious reasons hidden.
We can work out that A=B and B=C but subconsciously A could equal B1 (just to keep the lettering straight) and B1 leads to B2 which leads to B3 which ends up as B3=C. Therefore we'd only see B3.
Humans are wonderful at self-deception.

No, when it is challenged is when the support structure that stems from those beliefs falls down.

Ourselves (i.e. personally without outside help)?
Yes, or at least not to any great reliability.

No, the reverse is true.
The subconscious may filter up to the conscious, but the subconscious doesn't work down from the conscious in a noticeable way.

"Want" doesn't come into it.

Again agreed.
But convincing oneself of that is not as easy as it sounds, nor does it follow any easily-trod path.

 

Bah!
I should have called on you sooner in this thread.

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lol..just cause you don't know what im talking about doesn't mean i don't..lol

true..but that doesn't mean we do not have the ability to make it known..

this also is true..

this sounds like a 'throw the baby out with the dishwater' statement
just cause one thing doesn't stand up doesn't mean the rest has to fall..

i would have to agree...

i would think that the only way the subconscience would learn first would be in the womb or shortly after birth..maybe when you are asleep would apply ..OH! and hypnotism..

so this would bring up the question where/what is the subconscience?
is it a little grey matter reserved for storing that which we are not aware of?
or is it infused with our conscience mind comingling with our conscience thoughts?
(i will agree that this may be for another thread..)

somantics..

how easy was it for me to explain all this....
noone said anything about easy...
its the one subject matter that to discuss brings forth those 'feelings of worthlessness' makes it harder to understand when it makes one feel worthless..

anyway..

 

Not on our own.

You misinterpret what I'm saying.
The subconscious belief shapes a structure and behavioural pattern that sustains and reinforces that belief. And it works (sometimes for your entire life). If, however, that behavioural pattern is drastically shown to not work then the underlying belief is exposed: this can lead to depression and other problems.

No, subconscious learning can be (is?) done while awake and living "normally". It's the way things are perceived and reacted to that go "below" conscious thought that forms in the subconscious.

Meh, where is the conscious?
Heck WHAT is the conscious?

Um, probably another thread.
Isn't memory holographic (i.e spread out throughout the brain)?

Heh, "semantics", but sort of apt: "soma" = sleep/ unconsciousness.

Okay.
But yeah, recognising that there's a "problem" is the first step, and knowing that something can be done is another big step.

 

i understand what you are saying

which can be adressed and rethought..or retrained however you want to view it.and yes professional help does help..i am not argueing against that..
i am argueing we are capable of helping ourselves..we may not have the ability or the desire..but we have the capability..
(not talking about the extreme cases..just the average cases)

 

Good. Now explain it me.

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Hmm okay. I'd tentatively agree with that: once the "problem" has surfaced.

 

i think its a matter of i think we have discussed this one out..
i am running out of things to say....

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i don't dare say who i think is responsible for our sense of worth....

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Pfft a true SciForummer wouldn't let that get in the way!

 

lol..spoken like a true motor mouth..

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btw i edited my last post..

 

"We ALL have false beliefs about ourselves."
~Dywyddyr

oK... what i origionaly took that to mean was... that we can intentionaly thank somptin is true in spite of a preponderence of evidence to the contrary... an that didnt seem like somptin a sane person coud do... but of course you are corect... that when they are tested later on in life... we may learn that the thangs we prevously thout was true are actualy not... an it can throw you for a loop to realize a big chunk of who you are has been based on false informaton.!!!

 

It can happen in minutes. The cocky guy in the bar approaches four women. The 'hot' basketball player from Littletown, Nowhere at college varsity tryouts - and the academic version of this one. The Mr. or Ms. Anybody who meets someone - a therapist, a date, a teacher - who cuts through all the BS - negative or positive - with a few sharp questions and one 'impression' and a bubble suddenly pops.

 

Well thats a nice list an i feel compelled to discuss it.!!!

Not guilty.!!!

Not guilty.!!!

Not guilty.!!!

Not guilty.!!!

Not guilty.!!!

Not guilty.!!!

I thank im guilty of that???... but if my life is ruined im not aware of it.!!!

Not guilty.!!!

Not guilty.!!!


Hay... i thank i cam out smellin like a rose on that test... eh... well... escept for my life posibly bein ruined

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