Don't fight the FED

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by sculptor, Jun 16, 2017.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    24,044
    Correction:
    Oops - I see the problem: I mistook post 12, of mine,for post 13, of mine, when I scrolled back earlier - post 13 was originally intended to merge with 12, and I overlooked the fact that they were separated. My bad - all references to "13" in my posts are references to "12".
    The Federal Reserve banks are private capital funded investor-run (via hired executives) corporations given a geographic monopoly of a particular profitable service in exchange for submitting to close government regulation in the public interest via a dedicated government oversight agency.

    Your turn: How are they not like a public utility?
    The only part that is an agency of the Federal Government is the Board of Governors - the Federal oversight agency. All the other parts - including all the banks themselves - are not.
    In every post on this thread (except 13, corrected now) - 6, 8, 12, 15, and now this one - I have stated that the Board of Governors is a Federal agency. (I also specified that fact in each of the several other threads this obsession of yours has occupied).
    Your claim that I changed to that in post 12 which you quoted (error 13) of this thread - this claim, by you, in post 14:
    is false - inaccurate, and deceptive, and slanderous, and completely gratuitous.

    Meanwhile, you have managed to derail two relevant and otherwise obvious trains of thought - that I agree with you, in the matter of the wingie feed posted by "sculptor", about the Fed not causing the Crash of 2007 (or 1929, if you check);
    and that the nature of the Fed, as a capitalistic and semi-independent entity managed by executives beholden to private capitalist interests, introduces a much different viewpoint on its behaviors than the one promoted by the wingie feed - and one complementary to your arguments. You could go with it.

    You have a comprehension problem, and a trolling habit. You may be stupid, you may be inherently dishonest in the common manner of authoritarians such as yourself, you may just have bad luck when you think, I don't know - but you should not reply to my posts until you have figured out what is going wrong that causes you to post like that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
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  3. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    You either screwed up or were being intentionally deceptive as is your habit.

    The entire Federal Reserve is a government operated business. It's one of a number of government operated businesses e.g. Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation. The entire Federal Reserve is self funding, and it's profits are transferred to the US Treasury. The Federal Reserve is the banker's banker. It provides banking services to member banks. That's what central banks do. That's why they call banks like the Federal Reserve "central banks".

    Though the Federal Reserve has some regulatory functions and it's regulatory powers were greatly expanded by Dodd-Frank, regulation wasn't the primary purpose of the the Federal Reserve. There are other regulatory agencies under the US Treasury who are responsible for banking regulation. The primary banking regulator in the US is the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency which is an independent agency inside the US Treasury Department and there are other independent government agencies like like the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) which regulate banks. The Federal Reserve isn't the only banking regulator. It's just one of many banking regulators.

    As I previously wrote, I don't think you understand what the Federal Reserve does. The Federal Reserve Banks are the operating arm of the Federal Reserve Board of Governors which you now admit is an agency of the US government. You are arguing the head of the Federal Reserve is an agency of of the federal government but the body isn't. And that makes sense to you?

    Contrary to your assertion, the fact that the Federal Reserve employs executives doesn't make it a utility.
    Name me one utility which regulates itself? Name me one public utility which determines monetary policy? Utilities are regulated. The Federal Reserve is the regulator and the provider of services.

    The Federal Reserve System, often referred to as the Federal Reserve or simply "the Fed," is the central bank of the United States. It was created by the Congress to provide the nation with a safer, more flexible, and more stable monetary and financial system. The Federal Reserve was created on December 23, 1913, when President Woodrow Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act into law. Today, the Federal Reserve's responsibilities fall into four general areas.
    • Conducting the nation's monetary policy by influencing money and credit conditions in the economy in pursuit of full employment and stable prices.
    • Supervising and regulating banks and other important financial institutions to ensure the safety and soundness of the nation's banking and financial system and to protect the credit rights of consumers. (Dodd-Frank)
    • Maintaining the stability of the financial system and containing systemic risk that may arise in financial markets. (Dodd-Frank)
    • Providing certain financial services to the U.S. government, U.S. financial institutions, and foreign official institutions, and playing a major role in operating and overseeing the nation's payments systems. https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_12594.htm
    Utilities don't regulate monetary policies. Utilities and utility regulators don't provide clearing house operations. Utilities and utility regulators don't make loans. The Federal Reserve does all of those things. When you write a check, that check is processed through a federal reserve bank. All checks processed in this country are processed through a federal reserve bank. Name me one utility ore utility regulator that does that?

    Additionally, you don't need to be a member of the Federal Reserve to make loans or take deposits. There is a whole shadow banking industry out there that isn't covered by the Federal Reserve or banking regulators.

    Except as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, your assertion simply isn't true. I suggest you go back and read my previous post, this time more slowly. Again, pay particular attention to the organization charts and the responsibilities of each Federal Reserve component.

    Only after repeated denials, post #12 was the first post in which you conceded the Federal Reserve Board of Governors was in fact an agency of the Federal Government. Prior to that and in all previous discussions you had flat out denied that fact. You are lying again. I've quoted your posts number 6 and 8. You are flat out lying as you are wont to do.

    As has been repeatedly pointed out to you the Federal Reserve Board of Governors governs the Federal Reserve System. It’s one system. It’s one agency. The “Federal Reserve Banks are the operating arms of the Federal Reserve System, and are supervised by the Board of Governors”. You do understand what that means? It’s one system. It’s the Federal Reserve and contrary to your assertion it is an agency of the US government."

    The truth isn't false, inaccurate, deceptive, and slanderous or gratuitous. It's simply the truth. You should try it some time.

    Those aren't the issues here. The issue here is your misrepresentation and ignorance of the Federal Reserve.

    Oh, so now the Federal Reserve is "semi-independent". As has been previously and repeatedly pointed out to you the Federal Reserve is a agency of the US government and beholden to Congress. It's authority is derived from Congress. The Federal Reserve Board of Governors controls and manages the entire Federal Reserve System.

    Per previous references the Federal Reserve isn't "owned" by anyone. It's not owned by member banks.

    Oh, now you go for the ad hominem, the argument of last resort. You should not make posts about subjects you know little to nothing about and represent yourself as having some knowledge or expertise. Before you go insulting others, you should take a long and serious look at yourself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    No, it isn't. Only its oversight agency, the Board of Governors, is. And that is a significant factor in its behavior, past and projected - it's currently {pretty vague about some few billions of dollars} (edited to avoid conspiracy theory sidetrack) it was supposed to have accounted for either as liabilities met or profits owed the US Treasury under its charter, for example, and finding out what happened is not a simple matter of reviewing the GAO books (as it would be for a Federal agency).
    - - - -
    Your post at issue was a falsehood. It was inaccurate, slanderous, deceptive, and gratuitous.
    Actually, those are - or were - the issues here. Check out the OP, subsequent discussion of the OP, etc. My correct and accurate representation of the Federal Reserve was a tangent, an attempt to rehabilitate your approach to "river" et al, and the OP itself.
    That was not an argument. You don't know what an ad hominem argument is, for starters because you don't know what an argument is.

    That was a criticism, a denigration of your posting, and a recommendation - a good one.

    Here it is again:
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
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  7. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    You just wrote it was “semi-independent” and now you are denying it. As previously explained to you The Board of Governors is the governing body. The Federal Reserve Banks are the arms of the Board of Governors. Congress is the oversight body, not the Federal Reserve.

    Except it was none of those things.

    As previously explained, this is about your “correct and accurate representation” which is neither correct nor accurate. You keep changing your positions.

    And yet it was your argument.

    You aren’t being honest again are you? This was your argument, “You have a comprehension problem, and a trolling habit. You may be stupid, you may be inherently dishonest in the common manner of authoritarians such as yourself, you may just have bad luck when you think, I don't know - but you should not reply to my posts until you have figured out what is going wrong that causes you to post like that.”
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    24,044
    That's not an argument.
    Nothing in that or any post of mine here is or was dishonest.

    You should take the recommendation. It's good advice. You have made far too many posts like 14, with the facts staring you in the face as in posts 6, 8, and 12.

    In this thread, until you figure things out, you will be missing core features of the Federal Reserve that underlie the issues people have with its behavior. Knowing that some conspiracy theory about the Fed is wrong is not enough - knowing why it is wrong is critical. The indicated improvements in the Federal Reserve are quite different if you think it has been acting as a socialist Federal agency, instead of as an organization of capitalist corporate banks overseen by a Federal agency.

    The US government does not own or operate its Central Bank. That is an important feature of US governance.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  9. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,874
    You are full of shit Iceaura and either dishonest to the core or incredibly dense. What's wrong with post 14? Nothing is wrong with post 14. You have pretended to know more than you do and in doing so been fraudulent. When your errors are pointed out, you jump around. Your story changes. You are dishonest. The only one who needs to figure things out is you.

    Furthermore isn't about conspiracy theories. This is about facts. And the unfortunate fact for you is the Federal Reserve is an agency of the federal government. It isn't a private capitalist conspiracy as you have asserted, and it's not a utility as you have asserted. I've shown you multiple sources which prove beyond a doubt the Federal Reserve is an agency of the US federal government. Contrary to your assertion, employees of the Federal Reserve are federal employees. The Federal Reserve is a self funding organization like many other self-funding government operations, e.g. Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, the US Post Office, et al.

    The Federal Reserve is governed by the Federal Reserve Board of Governors which reports directly to Congress. It's governors are appointed by the POTUS and ratified by the Senate. The Federal Board of Governors govern the Federal Reserve Banks. That's why they are called governors and not something else. Contrary to your assertion, the Federal Reserve Banks are not "branches" although each of the 12 Federal Reserve Banks may have branch offices. You confused branch offices with Federal Reserve Banks.

    Contrary to your assertions the federal government through the Federal Reserve Board of Governors does operate the Federal Reserve Banks.
     
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    24,044
    The only operational role played by the Board of Governors at the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis is this:
    https://www.minneapolisfed.org/news...-of-minneapolis-announcement-november-10-2015

    Other than approving the hiring of a new CEO/President (by the local B&C Boards of Directors), which they can do with the app equivalent of a rubber stamp if they choose, their role is to receive and review - at their discretion, if they have time in their busy days - summary reports of operations, twice a year.
     
  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,874
    I think you need to go back and read my previous posts. I've explained the Federal Reserve operating structure complete with organization charts. The Federal Reserve banks are governed by the Federal Reserve Board of Governors. That's why they are called governors and not something else. As previously explained, the Federal Reserve Banks are the operational arms of the Federal Reserve Board of governors.
     
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    24,044
    I did that, in post 12 - showing you that the only Federal agency involved in the Federal Reserve system is the Board of Governors.
    To repeat:
    And the reason this matters is that the independence of the Central Bank system the US employs - the fact that none of these Federal Reserve banks are owned or operated by the US government - is a key factor in its behavior.
     
  13. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,874
    If that is what you think, then you clearly didn't understand your Wiki reference. I provided you with a reference directly from the Federal Reserve which provided organization charts and explained Federal Reserve history to you.

    I suggest you read my previous posts and references. The unfortunate fact for you is the entire Federal Reserve System is owned and operated by the US government, including the Federal Reserve Banks.

    You began this conversation insisting that the entire Federal Reserve System was privately owned and operated. Now you are only insisting the Federal Reserve Banks are private owned and operated. Well, that's progress. But you are still wrong. The entire Federal Reserve System is owned and operated by the US Federal government. I suggest you read my post #20 again and pay particular attention to my references.

    You, like many others, are confused by vestigial organizational artifacts of the US central banking system, i.e. the Federal Reserve. When the Federal Reserve was first created more than a century ago; Federal Reserve Banks were envisioned to operate independently. There was much apprehension about a state owned and operated central bank. As previously explained in post #20, that model didn't work. The US central bank has evolved to become a centralized state owned and operated central banking system like other modern central banks.
     
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    24,044
    The US government does not own or operate a single one of the Federal Reserve Banks.
    There are several other modern central banks that are not owned or operated by their respective States. I named a couple, above. Some are even more independent than the hybrid US Federal Reserve - some coin and print physical currency, for example, whereas the US Treasury, a government agency, prints and coins the US currency.
     
  15. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,874
    Except it does, per previous references.

    And who would those "modern central banks be"? Please do be specific. You are lying. You haven't named a few.

    Additionally, you are moving the goal post. The issue hasn't been independence. The issue under discussion has been private versus public ownership of the central bank. The world's first central bank was Bank of Palmstruch and it was a private central bank founded in 1656, and it quickly went bankrupt. Early central banks were privately owned, but private ownership didn't work, and that's why central banks have become state owned entities.

    Independence is a different story. Most modern central banks do operate independently, and that's a good thing. Monetary policy should be outside the realm of politics, and that's why most central banks operate with a large degree of autonomy, i.e. independence.
     
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    24,044
    You are never going to learn.

    I named a couple, as I posted - Switzerland and Denmark, in post 15. There is also Norway, Belgium, and a few others - the matter is complicated by the common practice of modern governments buying shares of private capitalist central banks on the open market, as a capitalist investor in the bank, so that Belgium's central bank has half its shares owned by the Belgian government, and I think the Japanese central bank's majority shareholder is the Japanese government.

    That clearly does not make such banks government agencies, of course. Government agencies don't trade their shares on the stock exchange. They are capitalist corporations, not branches of government.

    There are also many central banks modeled after the German Bundesbank, a hybrid setup with some parallels to the US, only with perhaps more government operational control (government involvement at a lower level than hiring and firing the CEO).

    One quickly confronts matters of definition - does a majority stockholder "own" a business they cannot sell and do not operate ? (the government of Japan cannot tell its central bank how to run its commercial window, for example). But there is no definition of ownership or operation under which the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis is owned or operated by the US government.
     

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