Does Chaos Theory prove a Mathematically Ordered Universe

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Aug 7, 2020.

  1. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,077
    Let me ask you
    If I was to take a book titled "The BIG Book of MATHEMATICS" and retitled it "The BIG Book of ENERGY"

    Each formula inside, becomes a formula about energy

    No problem, no?

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  3. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,077
    Old McDonald had a Universe
    Ee I Ee I oh
    An in his Universe he had some math
    Ee I Ee I oh
    With a Math Math here
    And a Math Math there
    Here a Math, there a Math
    Everywhere a Math Math
    Old McDonald had a Universe
    Ee I Ee I oh

    Old McDonald had a Universe
    Ee I Ee I oh
    And in his Universe he had some
    Micro tubes
    Ee I Ee I oh
    With a micro here
    Few tubes there
    Here a micro, there a tube
    Everywhere a Microtubule
    Old McDonald had a Universe
    Ee I Ee I oh

    Old McMichael had a Universe
    Ee I Ee I oh
    And in his Universe he had some
    Physics
    Ee I Ee I oh
    With a Physics here
    A Physics there
    Here a Physics, there a Physics
    Everywhere a Physics
    Old McDonald had a Universe
    Ee I Ee I oh

    All together

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  5. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    No

    For existence a something (any something) must have PROPERTIES. Most importantly said PROPERTIES must be DETECTABLE

    Need not necessarily be directly detectectible by only human senses. We have the ability to build equipment to detect stuff not accessible to our puny Minions senses, but none the less exist

    Lack of detectability is the biggest obstacle to Russell's teapot, not its improbability, although that does not help it's chances of existence

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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    I answered that in # 157

    I am talking about YOUR GOD, that Immaterial creative motivated Intelligent Designer. An abstract Image.
     
  8. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    My god , I have no god . Is there Life in this Universe ? No Question .

    Energy nor matter have intelligence .
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    That was not a statement of fact, Michael. It was in response to "river".
    Exactly, everything in existence has a relational "value" in many forms, from the subtle abstract Implication (enfolded order) to the gross Explication (unfolded order) in physical observable form.
    I agree.
    I agree.

    But here is where Tegmark suggests that a "mathematical universe" has the logical power to solve all problems involving the interaction of different values in the self-formation of universal mathematical patterns...

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  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    ENERGY is a sub-section in the Big Book of Mathematical relational values.
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    OK, then we are in agreement on this point.
    Mathematics is the abstract logically quasi-intelligent language that is the guiding equation in all ways. It is the mathematics that allow for the orderly transmutation of Energy into Matter.

    That's the point. One size fits all, from dynamic Chaos to eventual static Order.......

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  12. river

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    Mathematics is the abstract logically quasi-intelligent language that is the guiding equation in all ways. It is the mathematics that allow for the orderly transmuation of Energy into Matter.

    That's the point....One size fits all!

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    [/QUOTE]

    Disagree to your last statement , highlighted ;

    Mathematics does not , can not allow and/or disallow anything . Mathematics has no efficacy on any Physical .
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    No, mathematics are the natural laws that govern the interactive physical behaviors based on inherent and extant values.
     
  14. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    No, mathematics are the natural laws that govern the interactive physical behaviors based on inherent and extant values. [/QUOTE]

    Mathematics does not " govern " anything Physical . It is the Physical that tells you these laws .
     
  15. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,077
    Not having seen or read such book I suspect it would be talking about ENERGY in a fashion which we arbitrarily assign a value

    ie This (whatever situation) has x1 + X2 +?...... however many individual independent units, each unit has its own Energy property amount

    x1 has ? horsepower
    X2 has amps
    etc etc

    OK Iggy river - got it

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    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
  16. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    Every moment you put quasi-intelligent language

    I will reply

    dumb numerical squiggles

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  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    27,543
    Utter bullshit.
    Energy, matter, space, time are all aspects of what evolved at the BB, and the mathematics gave us a method to understand the cosmos from t+10-43 seconds up to 13.83 billion years later, and even reliably predictions as to the future. Intelligence came with evolution and abiogenesis of life.
    Again mathematics is a tool, it is the language of physics anda method for us to solve the problems that we face in the universe that Earth is a part of.
    I will later start a thread in the sciences on the undisputed power of mathematics, its relationship with the BB, the cosmos and GR...at least to the best of my ability with a couple of interesting links. Continuing here with that is out of the question with river doing his hardest to squeeze in his own fairy tale, baseless and ridiculous scenarios, of intelligent energy, poisonous water, anal probing aliens, and the non existence of gravity and spacetime.
     
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  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    Yes, arbitrarily assigned relational (relative) values. The human mathematical symbolisms are merely tools to manipulate the relative values.
    That's why algebraics work so well. They allow for the processing of relational values of all sorts and properties, in an orderly and consistent manner.

    Quasi, adverb
    1. effectively, as it were
    Intelligent, adjective
    1. having or showing intelligence

    Thus Quasi-intelligent; Effectively showing self-ordering repeating patterns as if it were intelligent itself.
    No dumb numerical squiggles. Just interactive relational values being processed in a logically consistent manner.

    Human mathematics are symbolic "numerical squiggles", translating the interaction of natural logical interactive values and algebraic functions.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
  19. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,077
    By putting QUASI in front of Intelligent you have admitted it can be any of the below

    In other words
    YOU DON'T NEED TO BRING IT INTO THE DISCUSSION AT ALL

    quasi-
    /ˈkwāˌzī,ˈkwäzē/
    combining form
    1. seemingly; apparently but not really.
      "quasi-American"

      Similar:
      supposedly

      seemingly

      apparently

      allegedly

      reportedly

      professedly

      ostensibly

      on the face of it

      to all appearances

      on the surface
      to all intents and purposes

      outwardly

      superficially

      purportedly

      nominally

      by one's/its own account
      on paper

      pseudo-

      pretendedly
      ostensively
      supposed

      seeming

      apparent

      alleged

      reported

      ostensible

      purported

      nominal

      so-called

      would-be

      bogus

      sham

      phoney

      imitation

      artificial

      mock

      ersatz

      fake

      forged

      feigned

      pretended

      simulated

      false

      spurious

      counterfeit

      fraudulent

      deceptive

      pretend

      put-on

      fakey
      cod

      ostensive
    Mathematics has nothing to do with intelliegence quasi or dumb or yellow or Universe or rhinoceros or ........

    It is just MATHEMATICS and gets along just fine being called MATHEMATICS. The closest it comes to intelliegence is the physical distance between the page it is being squigged on and the brain of the person where the PROCESS of intelliegence is occurring

    Numericals squiggles

    Numericals squiggles do nothing

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  20. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    27,543
    This thread appears to be about two extremities taken by river and Write4U......river is just being river, silly, trollish and child like behavour in dismissing apparent facts that are the basis of 20th/21st century cosmology.
    Write4U sees maths as some all encompassing fundamental aspect of the universe, and much of what he says is way over the top.
    I don't dismiss the importance of maths, and as I have said many times, it is what enables us to describe and decipher the observational universe and is essentially the language of physics. That's it. pure and simple...a powerful and indispensable tool we use, as a result of our intelligence. [not mine specifically as sadly my maths ability is pretty low.

    river on the other hand dismisses maths out of hand, simply because it shows the viability of current theories, and will always invalidate his own so called "thinking" or arse wipe hypotheticals.
     
  21. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,077
    Agree with your assessment even though I can't comment on Iggyed river

    Write4U seems to want mathematics to be more than arbitrary squiggles on a page. However arbitrary squiggles are incapable of being more than arbitrary squiggles

    Any intelliegence Write4U spreads over them is a active process occuring in the brain and said process is incapable of being transferred to arbitrary squiggles

    We can look at 1+1 = ? For eternity and the ? will not turn into 2 even if we have calculated 2 in our brain

    If arbitrary squiggles had what Write4U asserts we would all be mathematitions

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  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    Mathematics is the language of logic. Logic is the fundamental function of Nature.
    It appears intelligent, but it isn't sentient intelligent, it is Logical in essence.
    The existence of the Universe may not seem Logical at this time, but it is here and it acts logically!
    Properties are mathematical relational values.
    Limiting mathematical functions?
    A mathematical equivalence?
    https://www.quora.com/Why-do-we-live-in-a-logical-universe

    It has no choice, a dynamic condition will eventually order itself by the laws of Chaos.


     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    How then does mathematics allow us to solve almost all universal values and functions? Because we are intelligent but nothing is mathematical? No we are able to understand the mathematics of the universe because they present as quasi-intelligent and we are intelligent, so we can understand it.

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    Is proof not contained in the functionality of the model and the methods used to model the physical reality You're playing musical chairs here.
    No, you need to look at this again. Throw a bunch of hydrogen atoms and oxygen atoms together and see what happens spontaneously, as we can actually observe it happening without any help from humans. Do humans make it rain? Indians used to think so, but we know precipitation is a naturally occurring spontaneous reaction, a result of prevailing environmental conditions. It rains all by itself without the help from human intelligence.

    Robert Hazen estimates that the earth has performed some 2 trillion, quadrillion, quadrillion, quadrillion spontaneous chemical reactions based on the inherent relational values and mathematical (algebraic) interactions of the earth minerals.
    I would definitely call that a quasi-intelligent function of the earth dynamic potential.

    p.s. there are some 1500 missing minerals, minerals that should exist but we haven't found yet. Kinda like the Higgs boson, no?

    Precipitation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precipitation

    The Universe is a self-ordering system and it does so using relational values and algebraic functions.
    We are all mathematicians to a degree. Everything in the universe has mathematical values (properties). How does a frog catch a bug? Triangulation! Does it know this? No. Does it need to know? No.

    Definitions of mathematics [quote]Mathematics has no generally accepted definition. Different schools of thought, particularly in philosophy, have put forth radically different definitions. All proposed definitions are controversial in their own ways.[1][2]
    [/quote] Early definitions
    The science of indirect measurement.[3] Auguste Comte 1851 . The "indirectness" in Comte's definition refers to determining quantities that cannot be measured directly, such as the distance to planets or the size of atoms, by means of their relations to quantities that can be measured directly.[6][/quote]
    Greater abstraction and competing philosophical schools
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_mathematics
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020

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