Do any of you have psychic powers yet?

lets just ban the infidel ellimist

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Fafnir665 and Urchin - Sorry

Oh, Fafnir665 Urchin you may or may not have abilities but at this point in time they haven't been proven.
If you wish to prove your abilities, write a these, lab proposal and demonstrate you abilities to a local University. If your abilities are seen as genuine (which a simple demonstration of your abilities would) they may a lot some time and money into studying you.

If you are telling the truth... WOW
If you are full of it, than so be it.

 

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Re: Ellimist Why Don't You Work On Reading Comprehension

An open mind means simply that facts will be observed, and hypotheses made based upon evidence gathered. These hypotheses will then be tested ruthlessly in order to establish a theory. The problem with many "open minded" people is that they STOP with the first hypothesis, which is, invariably, the one that they WANT to be true. This is simply human nature and it takes discipline to overcome. That discipline is called scientific method.

"Might" is an inappropriate word here. "Probably" would have better weight. Unfortunately, many of the claims of the paranormal involve energy use and physics that are counter to everything that has been learned to date. The potential that exists will likely be less colorful than telekinesis or astral projection, but every bit as, or even more, fascinating in its complexity.

This simply isn't true. There has been plenty of study on the subject. The studies that were conducted answered the questions sufficiently as to render the majority of "psy" abilities as mere folklore and bamboozle (I'm speaking of cultural stories/legends and capitalist opportunists of history).

One look at at least two of my previous posts will show you some links to peer reviewed literature. One need only conduct a search on Ebsco or Medline. Google probably won't get it for you.

What I've read of StarGate (not from biased opportunists attempting to sell a book, but rather from government explanation of the program itself) indicates that the program was considered to be a waste of time/money. The "hits" that the so-called viewers received were vague and likely influenced by their handlers. The preponderance of "misses" even suggested that the odds were in favor of outright guessing over Remote Viewing.

The real problem is that there are a lot of opportunists who are more than willing to take advantage of the consumer who has proven a willingness to believe (or wantingness to believe) in the fantastic: bigfoot, Loch Ness, Tarot Cards, Astrology, Palmestry, etc. These opportunists write books and attach their credentials to them, since some were people of some standing at some point in their lives.

Which brings us to the point: if Remote Viewing were possible, why hasn't one of these gifted people offered up the location of Bin Laden, Saddam, or the whereabouts of the Amber Room stolen by the Nazis from the Russians during WWII? Certainly it could be done in a public or an annonymous manner.

I challenge you to post the "declassified" documents that list these alleged successes. Just find one from the sources you have and post the image here or scan it and post it.

None of your other questions about Clinton, Utts, Ft. Meade, et al came from a source that can be identified as reliable. We can only take Anthony LoBaido's words at face value then subtract a bit of value since he also writes for www.jrnyquist.com, a "doomsday" oriented website where he posted this article: http://www.jrnyquist.com/august13/new_page_1.htm. Somewhat fundamental even for fundamentalists I'd say.

I see little compelling reason to waste more time on the subject. Though I'm certain that it will make good material for students of psychology/psychiatry for many years to come, so the research will continue.

The real topic is not Remote Viewing, it's the belief systems of people and why some people are 'gullable,' others are not, and still others used to be but became more skeptical... and there are even those who were skeptical then became 'believers' in some cult (ufology, bigfoot, RV, psychic hotline, astrology, religions, etc.).

Yet your expectation that the words of one journalist is to be accepted without question implies this. I'll be more inclined to pay attention if there is evidence that is compelling, such as genuine declassified documents, an interview with an official who provides credentials and additional evidence beyond annecdote, or disclosure of the location of some lost public figure (Bin Laden, Saddam, Chandra Leavey, or VP Cheney).

Actually, scientific 'probes' were conducted on the basis of little data to warrant the notion.... and sufficient information was obtained to state that there is little probability of the success of so-called remote viewing.

Partially correct. It is the job of a scientist to make as many hypotheses as he/she can then test them ruthlessly. This was done in the case of Remote Viewing and other so-called 'psy' abilities. The hypothesis of a scientist doesn't end with "certain, perhaps gifted humans can remotely view objects or events with verifiable accuracy."

It also must include many other hypotheses, such as "certain humans believe they can remotely view distant objects or events with verifiable accuracy," "no human can RV," "RV is a cult phenomenon linked to denial of self," "RV is linked to mental illnesses such as bi-polar disorder, ADHD, manic depression,....." et cetera.

I find the belief of the possibility itself fascinating.

 

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Re: Re: Ellimist Why Don't You Work On Reading Comprehension

Well, for one thing.. YOU go search for the declassified materials..

I can tell you about a couple of them, but If you dont really believe just check those out, and no... Im not oblied to give you any links whatsoever, Any responsible scientist or researcher must first learn the facts on order to discuss any topic.

There was a Russian Bomber in the late 70s or 80s that crashed down in Africa in the middle of the jungle, nobody knew were it fell..
CIA used the RV section since it was their last chance to find it..

So in the middle of thousands and thousands of square miles of tropical jungle they found the airplane, precisely were it was RVied..

This was the Best session of all, even President Carter some years later talked in public about this remarkable finding..

It proves right out that were not just playing with probabilities..

The Secret Submarine that was being built secretely by the Russia was revealed by the Remote Viewer Nº1 of CIA, with all the details, new technology, and exact time and place were it would be launched to sea so Sattelites could pick it up..

And they did..

Those of course are the best (and not only) Full hits that have been declassified...
90% of the material is still DIA classified... and that information is official too, So you must ask yourself..

Did CIA said that RV was unconclusive because it was.. or because at the time a big scandal because of the funding of CIA, and other troubles CIA had done that escaped to the media..

CIA didnt wanted to be caught with a psychic Program! Thats a nobrainer, and the politicians behind it would be mocked by the media and public.... So guess what? Do a little analysis of the info CIA gave to the investigators, and bang... Shut down the project..

the RV project was along for more than 20 years! It was reviewed about his effectiveness Every year..
So why did the closing of the project was at the same time the
files were declassified? (1995)
Guess it...

Get to read one or other book From Joe McMoneagle..
He was the first CIA contracted Remoteviewer, so You can see
how good the sessions were, and yes.. total failure was there too, but they had more than 60% hits...


PS. Ingo Swann, the "father" of RV said in a lecture around 2002 that Bin Laden was dead... Since then no videotapes had the dates, so until proven the contrary he seems to be right on his RV of Laden

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Re: Re: Re: Ellimist Why Don't You Work On Reading Comprehension

I don't believe that genuine declassified government documents exist which offer evidence of a successful remote viewing program. I'm certainly not going to search for something I believe to be non-existant. Of course, if I'm wrong, you won't mind prooving it (I have been known to be wrong... from time to time).

How do you know?

Perhaps you could link to a transcript of this public talk.

I see proof of nothing.

How do you know? Of course the answer to this question in both instances is probably because you read a book by a self-described remote viewer who states that this was done and the proof lies in some obscure declassified documents, which may or may not exist.

CIA spokesman, Mark Mansfield, in an interview with Robert Todd Carroll of the Skeptical Inquirer, stated that, "The CIA is reviewing available programs regarding parapsychological phenomena, mostly remote viewing, to determine their usefulness to the intelligence community." He went on to say that the Stargate program was found to be "unpormising."

Also, Stargate went on for years with the public's knowledge and without public outcry for missappropriation of funds. That is a testiment to the gullibility of the general populace. Also to the fact that it was likely very cheap in comparisson to other intellegence gathering resources. All you really have is the salaries of personnel. They need no extensive resources beyond a quiet space (assuming that it works).

You also have to understand the way intelligence works: you gather information from all available sources, compile it, then analyze it. Even if the source's credibility is questionable (they do this all the time with HUMINT from questionable people).

They had nothing to hide? No real intel came from it? Surely if it was successful even to a small degree of accuracy, they would have continued... the CIA cares little about public perceptions. If it did, Nicaragua would have turned out a bit different and the government of Chile would not have been undermined.

This is not coming from a credible source (McMoneagle). He's probably lying. He has books to sell.

Swann also said he "saw" a 30, 000 foot mountain on Jupiter.... You do realize Jupiter is a gas giant with a dense gravity, right? All satellite data retrieved to date indicates no such thing.

As far as Utts' claim about the veracity of Remote Viewing, she, a statistical expert, wasn't the only researcher on the case. Dr. Ray Hyman, a psychologist, was on hand as well:

" Although Utts and I -- in our capacities as coevaluators of the Stargate project -- evaluated the same set of data, we came to very different conclusions."

In fact, Hyman also states: "If Utts's conclusion is correct, then the fundamental principles that have so successfully guided the progress of science from the days of Galileo and Newton to the present must be drastically revised. Neither relativity theory nor quantum mechanics in their present versions can cope with a world that harbors the psychic phenomena so boldly proclaimed by Utts and her parapsychological colleagues. "

Hyman, Ray, 1996. "The Evidence for Psychic Functioning: Claims vs. Reality" Found at http://www.csicop.org/si/9603/claims.html

Hyman, Ray. "Evaluation of Program on Anomalous Mental Phenomena," Journal of Scientific Exploration, Volume 10 Number 1. Found at http://www.mceagle.com/remote-viewing/refs/science/air/hyman.html

 

Well, you checked the AIR report (the investigation that shut down the project)
then you MUST have access to those RV cases Ive talked about..

They are part of it, and If you cant find them on the main site were your read that Dr. Hutts check other places..


Oh and by the way, your 2nd link is FROM the Joe Mcmoneagle site.. eheh, so You didnt believe him and still quote his links?

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Well trust me on this, just check on the net, you can even see the original session sketches..

Anyway, As I say... 20 years of remote viewing is a Lot to after all that time shut down the program..
Oh and Russia had this too, thats why CIA became so interested about it...

Some posts ago you didnt belive CIA had this program.. now that you found your way on the net with info about...
Well try to research a little more on it, oh and avoid those biased ceptic sites, cause for them EVERYTHING is a hoax

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Check some unbiased reports... I wont give links as I said, its easy to find them on the net (you can search on mcmoneagle site for other more official links..)

 

I use it becuase it came from a valid source... Dr. Hyman did valid research. I'm not biased, I'm skeptical. The difference may be subtle to some, but it is there.

That seems to be the only source of valid information one can get with google. The rest is all poppycock.

Personally, I'm done looking... I don't believe there are any unbiased reports that favor RV beyond what I've already listed. The whole idea of extrasensory perception and remote viewing is clearly being perpetuated by capitalist opportunists who are exploiting their former credentials to make money by taking advantage of the gullibility of willing believers.

But on the off chance that it is a real phenomenon, I've placed a playing card that I've picked at random in an envelope and set it on my desk. Perhaps you can email one of your RV friends who will use their abilities to tell me what the card is.

If any of these alleged "unbiased" reports or "declassified" documents truly exist, feel free to cite a reference to them... otherwise, it is clear, as I said, that there is little credibility to the subject.

 

Ertai-
Hey, guess what, it's called burden of proof: " I wont give links as I said"... As a matter of fact: you have to... You made ridiculous claims, and now, you must support them. It is not up to those who are defending intelligence and common sense from your stupidity to find your "evidence" for you. That is your <u>burden</u>... support your claims, stop being a child.
<hr>
And to those who complain about arguments being about them, personally... stop being so damn egocentric. If you stop listening to yourself for a minute and take into considering what people are <i>really</i> saying to you, maybe you would stop believing that remote viewing is possible and psi exists.
And yes- background, credentials, cultural factors are quite significant in the reasons why people believe the weird things they do. If you are a generally paranoid person and know next to nothing about the scientific method, except what your psychic friends failed to tell you (haha), and you are only presented with one side of things, of course you will think that there are government conspiracies everywhere-just an example. I am tired of hearing shit like: "I weighed both sides/I considered both sides"... bullshit. Very few people honestly do, and because of it, illogical beliefs come of it. Such as things that are inconsistent with science, yet they still maintain their beliefs.

One last thing, before I stop reading the stream of stupidity on these boards... no experimental test of science has ever confirmed or even hinted at the existence of a power called, resembling, or even remotely similar to psi. If you find me an experiment that supports the claim that psi has been discovered with evidence, I will find an article denouncing that article, or I will show where the testing went wrong. As of yet, psi is not real. Of course, it would be incredibly cool if there were experiments that could be confirmed(repeated) that proved its existence... but since the world has been testing it for many, many years... I am skeptical, along with thousands of others. Those who believe it without question have never stopped to think about it and how it first, does not make sense, and second, how it is incompatible with science. THE BRAIN DOES NOT EMIT WAVES OF ENERGY OR INFORMATION OVER DISTANCES besides heat, technically.

I have often wondered what the world would be like if ignorance was obsolete and people could not ignore evidence and actually think for once what they are claiming, before making fools of themselves.

I have removed myself from these boards once before, and I am about to again, for the increasing stupidity is often unbearable. "he's gone, good, guffaw, guffaw"-don't say shit like that, makes you look even dumber.
If there are any intelligent arguments or statements that even make sense, I will respond once or twice more, then I am out, you may then stew in your blindness.

~if you want to prove something like government statements... PROVIDE THEM, GODDAMNIT... STOP HIDING.

 

What exactly makes you think the people who are posting here are blind and waiting for you to "open their eyes"?

In other words, you have all the answers and it is a great loss for all of us if you go?

All people are individuals with their own experiences in life. What they do with that and how they view the world, is totally up to them.

If you don't like what you see here, then take a hike. I have not seen you post in the other fora, the science fora. I mean, if that is more your expertise, then why are you not there?

Have a good life. May it be all you wish for and may you find all the answers you are looking for.

Goodbye!

 

There's nothing wrong with scepticism, but let's not fool ourselves that these scientific types are anymore open minded than the people who believe anything they read on websites. Both of you are just taking the information you are most comfortable with and using it to try to reinforce your own perception of what is real and what is not.

The believers in everything and anything will see someone bend a spoon and believe there is some unknown force behind it. It won't matter that this can be done as a parlour trick, it won't matter that a famous spoon bender has been caught on camera bending the spoon with his hand when he didn't know he was being filmed. Pretty soon that kind of reality fades from the memory because he or she just doesn't want their world to be crumbled.

Sceptics of the scientific kind are just as bad. To them, all psychic phenonema is rubbish. They somehow agree that psychic abilities have no place in the scientific world on the one hand, but then expect those who claim them to use a scientific method to prove they exist!

"Show me the evidence" they say. If someone shows them evidence, which can only be testimonial in nature, they find that the science was not valid or not reputable. These are just opinions based on their own particular prejudices and beliefs.

For instance here is some 'evidence' I witnessed a few weeks ago.

It was on TV (that prejudices the sceptics against it for a start, it must be crap if it was on television). The program was a documentery looking into the claims of mediums. There were both mediums and sceptics taking part.

In one part of the program a society of sceptics organised a test in London. They gathered about 20 ordinary people, sat them in a room with a pen and paper. In the next room was a medium. He was asked to speak to them as a group. He had no access to them beforehand. He just sat there descibing what he 'saw'. The group were told to write down anything that applied to them. They never spoke.

At one point he said he was seeing a cottage, called Summer View and in the garden were lots of little stone Buddahs.

While some of the people found there were things that applied to them, there was one woman who lived in a cottage called Summer View and had little stone Buddahs in the garden.

So what would a sceptic say to that? He guessed, it was rigged, the little old lady was his mother?

The problem for any sceptic reading this is, firstly they probably didn't see the program themselves, so they only have my word it existed, and they only have my word I am reporting it accurately. Secondly, they might believe I am telling the truth, but that I am being fooled by the program makers, maybe they rigged it. I can't know they didn't, but if I am telling the truth, then why wouldn't they, it was afterall an investigation into whether mediums are real or not.

If you (any sceptic reading this) had seen the program yourself, would you have said this is amazing, there's no way it could be anything other than evidence of psychic ability? No probably not, but you would probably say you just don't believe it because it is 'not possible' according to all known laws of physics. Surely there has to be a part of you that given what amounts to testimonial evidence you have to take it seriously rather than dismissively just because it doesn't fit in with your understanding of the world. Most psychic 'evidence' is of this kind, snippets of film, interviews, stuff that can't be pinned down as 100% genuine or false. But there is tons of evidence of this kind, is it all worthless because it wasn't proven by machines and formulas?

Any sceptic who maybe saw part of that program and was intrigued for a moment, would soon forget it, and every other piece of similar evidence he or she encounters over the years, because it simply doesn't feel comfortable to them and their own view of the world. They let it fade in the same way as the 'believe anything' brigade let evidence to the contrary fade, because it suits them to do so.

From my own point of view, the 'Summer View/Buddah' case was fairly convincing, simply because it was two specifically named objects that applied to a single person, filmed and conducted under controlled condtions by a group whose aims were to prove that mediums had no powers. It is not possible to rule out trickery entirely, but in my opinon it is hard to see how that could be. If a sceptic was to come along and say 'here's how it was done' then fair enough. In my opinion you would be as much a fool to dismiss it lightly as you would be to believe it without question. Either the scientists and the psychics should work together to get a better understanding of existence, or they should get off eachother's backs and leave eachother to their own little worlds.

We can prove frauds are frauds in a psychic sense, but it doesn't mean that all cases are frauds. By the same measure, science has many frauds of its own, not intentional ones maybe, but we don't dismiss all science because some of it is not true, we ought to give pyschic claims the same respect until they are shown to all be fraudulant.

 

Does this count in ESP?

Does this count in ESP? Here goes an experiment for all who want to believe.

Think of a number. Really, go ahead. I’ll guess it by the time this post is done.

Try to stay through this entire thing ok? Otherwise it will not work.

Now add 13 to you number.

Now add 26.

Subtract 9 from the given total. Now add 17.

And finally subtract your original number from the new total.


-----------------------------

You ended up with 47. Am I right?



P.S. I do apologize to all serious for this xp, but it felt like a tension reliever.

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Ha, this forum is a prime example of how people make up philosophies to explain what they cannot. I didn't think it was this serious, but wow. If this is how a majority of the world thinks, our future is seriously going down in flames.

If I had a sky-daddy, I would pray for your lives, but since I don't... ha ha, you are fucked up and it's your problem, deal with it. I will not be coming back. If you wish to make a comment directed to me, send me a private message.

 

blocalsteve,
that was one of the best posts I have read. I commend you on your well-planed points and on your cool head.

Ellimist- you may be right about our future but only time will tell.

 

Yeah! Hurray! He's gone! So... has anybody had anything cool (psychic-like) happen to them recently? Hi KS!

 

Re: Does this count in ESP?

Yes, you are right! I know it's just a math thing, but it's still pretty neat. And that was nice of you to throw in a much-needed tension reliever. I was getting REALLY tired of that little mini-war.

 

janeelsa I am glad that you liked it. I would get more involved into it, but I am just browsing the forum for now. When I feel the time is right I will get involved much more. I just wanted all of you to know I behold paranormal with utmost respect.

sig:
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... and above all, have a nice day.

 

I have always had alot of deja vu........it seems to be increasingly frequent as i get older........mabye that counts

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Do you have a personal theory on what deja vu is? For example, some people think we can go into the future while we're sleeping and if our actions and daily choices should happen to eventually lead us to the same point in space-time as what we experienced while we were asleep, then you get the sense of deja vu; because your body's never been there before but your mind is experiencing it for a second time. What do you think?

 

Janeelsa.......

I dont know. It will come to me in a dream(person,Place,etc...) and when i see it in reality get this wave of emotion over my body, I go weak at the knees and feel lightheaded.....It is a very weird feeling that i cant really describe. Mabye deja vu is the brain just compiling images while asleep. Then when i see it and think that i recognize this thing i am forcing the compiled images out of my sub-conceious(why i get light headed?)......well what do you think janeelsa?

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Actually I do think that maybe it's possible to 'travel' to any one of an infinite number of possible futures with our soul while our body is sleeping. The soul is not physical, why should it be subject to the 'rules' of a 3-dimensional world? I think I read somewhere that time and space are the 4th and 5th dimensions; well maybe our souls can travel through time and space. Some people believe that time is not linear, that all time exists now. And that, perforce, all events exist now. I know that conflicts with the idea of reincarnation, but I'm trying to puzzle it out. (I think I was a philosopher in a past life

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Anyway, when I do experience deja vu I try to let it unfold naturally. And sometimes I remember specifically dreaming about what's happening. I remember a lot of my dreams. Sometimes the memories are so strong that, years later, I have to ask myself, "Wait, did that really happen?"

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Oh, and I don't think I get weak-kneed, but I do get a little light-headed.