Denial of evolution

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by river-wind, Jul 23, 2007.

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  1. Pete It's not rocket surgery Moderator

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    Hi Carico,
    This is a long post, so I apologize.
    I have put a lot of thought into it... because I genuinely care for your well-being. I would not want or expect you to simply accept what I say as truth, of course, but I do hope that you will at least consider it, and perhaps remember some of it.

    Good luck!

    That's interesting... I don't think evolution was even mentioned in my schooling. Did you take a course in biology? But really, biology (or any other topic) at school doesn't count for much, anyway. There is too much variation in teaching standards, not enough time to cover more than surface 'facts', and not enough attention devoted to learning underlying concepts and how to critically examine ideas and arguments.

    Have you read anything non-creationist about evolution since then?
    Please pardon the question... it's just that I suspect that you have been seriously misled about what evolution is. It's as if someone learned all they need to know about Christianity by talking to anti-christians.

    Take your recent list of questions regarding transitional species... it implies that you understand the theory of evolution to dictate that a species is a distinct, well-defined thing, with sudden jumps from one species to another. But in fact, evolution says that a "species" is actually a fairly artificial classification, which is not at all well-defined in nature.

    The idea of a 'transitional species' is even more artificial. It doesn't even mean anything on its own, unless you first define which groups the transition is between. Once you've done that, there is still no unambiguous way to slice up the family tree between those two groups, because the theory of evolution says that there are no clear dividing lines over time between species in the same line of descent. The lines are very fuzzy.

    For example, you are descended from your parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, and so on. You have some genes from each parent, who have some from each of their parents, and so on. Now, you might look a lot like your parents, you might look a bit like your grandparents, and you might have some resemblance to your great-grandparents... but you aren't likely to have any more resemblance to your great-great-great-great-grandparents than anyone else of your ethnic background. But, there is nowhere that defines a boundary of family similarity... you, your parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, and so on could all look a lot like your respective parents, even though there is no family resemblance between you and a distant ancestor. Species in evolution are similar - there is no clear boundary between species.

    Speaking of parents and grandparents, it is important to realize that it is highly likely that some of your genes are not the same as either of your parents, but are mutations. The same goes for everyone. So, while you are the same species as your great(x100) grandparents, you certainly have some number of genes that you did not inherit from them. This doesn't mean you aren't the same species, of course... but it does indicate that a 'species' is not a well-defined thing.

    Now, if you consider your great(x10 000) grandparents (based on average 20-year generations), then we have some significant gene differences accumulated and we're getting into borderline territory. Whether you and they are the same species is really a matter of opinion, and different biologists do have different opinions.

    Considering your great(x50 000) parents, we might still be in borderline territory, but most biologists would consider you to be different species in the same genus. Note that there would be nothing inherently "transitional" about them... they are only 'transitional' in the sense that your parents are 'transitional' between you and your grandparents.

    Going back much further to your great(x300 000) grandparents, then we're in borderline genus territory. Some biologists would categorize you as the same genus, some in a different genus in the same sub-family... the point being that evolution does not suggest unambiguous divisions. Again, there would be nothing inherently transitional about your and my great (x300 000) grandparents, but their descendants include not only all humans, but chimpanzees and bonobos as well.

    Note well that evolution suggests that there are no distinct borderlines in this family tree. Every one of the 300,000 children between our great(x300000) grandparents and you, and every one of the 300,000 children between them and Sule probably looked as much like their parents as you do. They all had much the same similarly of language/oral communication with their parents as you do with your parents.

    Thanks for reading this far, Carico.

    I really hope that you can find it in your heart to honestly seek the truth, whatever that might be. If someone is to learn the truth about what Christianity is, then I'm sure you'll agree that they need to converse with Christians and read christian texts with an open heart and mind. Similarly, if someone is to learn the truth about what evolution is, they need to converse with biologists and read biology texts with an open heart and mind. If you only hear about something from someone who despises it you will be misled.

    Once again, I sincerely wish you good luck!

    Pete
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2008
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  3. Saquist Banned Banned

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    I've read a number of studies and seen a number of documentaries exploring the limits of the human brain. The brian's capacity compared to the library of congress dominates. Another comparied the brians regenerative abilites. While we can explain why animals that have regnerative abilites to regrow limbs has evolutionary properities it's suspect to apply that same reason to man considering there is no evidence that head trauma is apparently not a common enough event in every human's life..


    I don't think so ElectricFetus,
    In Engineering when you can double up on functions and fixtures to reduce cost you do. In this case materials not money.

    In this case look at the vagina construction. A Tripple purpose of reproduction receptical, Birth canal and waste dump.
    Gravity seems to be the propper motivator here on at least two of them. The birth canal and the the bladder as well. Just imagine if your bladder was bellow the spout. Think about your throat, the esophogus and the muscular there necessary there that's capable of forcing the stomach contents out. You'd need something similar for the bladder.

    What I mean is...from an engineering perspective it seems efficient.
    Not to mention that it doesn't seem to interfere or limit brain size when the entire skeletal structure can be augmented including the skull...
     
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  5. Pete It's not rocket surgery Moderator

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    Let's be clear: What specific studies indicate that a larger human brain could not be an advantage in complex environments? I don't care about the library of congress... it doesn't have the mind of a cockroach.

    Firstly, urine excretion is through the urethra, not the vagina. There would be no inherent disadvantage if the opening of the urethra was separated from the reproductive organs.
    Secondly, there is no reason that the bladder and kidneys need to be in their current position, so if the urethra were higher, then the bladder and kidneys could be higher as well.
    Thirdly, gravity isn't a big issue anyway... human muscles are quite capable of pushing hard against gravity. I think The structural issues of the human pelvic floor, the passage of a baby through the birth canal, and bipedal locomotion in general are much more debilitating than the problem of pushing against gravity.

    On that train of thought (damage to the pelvic floor support structure), having a urethra opening higher than the bladder could be a good thing in light of incontinence. If urine had to be pushed out (or bend over and pour it out) rather than sealed against just leaking out, people would have more control over urine flow.

    All this leads to an interesting question:
    What are the design specifications for a person?
    I.e. How do you distinguish a good body design from a bad body design? What are the key functional requirements of a body?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2008
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  7. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    First, don't talk to me about engineering, this is physilogy and until the day and age of complex organism synthetic biology this is not an engineering question. Second, gravity feed makes little sense for most other mammals. The problem with the human birth canal is that it's stretch too is limits with the human babies skull, but hips could not get much wider without reducing the efficiency of the female's walking gate.

    It depends on the goals, if you wanted human like creature that were fast, stronger, tougher, it could easily have been done.
     
  8. Saquist Banned Banned

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    I'm sorry I have only one specific reference and it's not from any of those studies. I did not take specific notes to be able to refrence this too you. At least not at current.



    Not a disadvantage. But still efficient.

    Yet the digestive system in nearly it's entirety still works as a downhill flow system.

    But they don't create suction, Gravity ensures that the contents of the blader are completely expelled. So Gravity does appear to be an issue. That's important to make sure even particle matter departs the bladder.

    That's more to do with the size of the bladder itself and it's capacity. A larger capacity bladder would need muscles that could hold back that flow. As it is about 18 ounces. Which is just about a pint.

    How ever the downhill flow system ensures that the waste will be expelled eventual. it's like a failsafe lock system. No conscious effort required thus if voluntary control is lost the lacking would ensure that waste does not accumulate beyond safe levels. ie (elderly, the commatose)

    but you make intresting points

    speaking from an engineering perspective...redunacy seems be one of the halmark of design and assurance the design will work. Nasa works in tripple redunacy, and in other fields of design the redundancy can get even higher in support.

    Kidneys and lungs are double redundant. Reproduction is double redundant, Hearing, opticals, the lobes of the brain, and the Liver is capable of regeneration. The air ways are double redundant.
     
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    the heart is double redundant, the brain is double redundant, the... wait wait, oops those things aren't!

    The ovaries could have been infused with the uterus, ova would migrate from the ovarian uterian layer to the surface of the endometrium to be presented and then discharged, also alleviating the need to discharge the whole endometrium.

    Most of the functions of the liver could have been done by fusing it with the small intestines. And a feature I wish we had is the ability to metabolize amines all the way to nitrogen rather then to urea and uric acid which is energy just wasted by having to constantly pee it out.
     
  10. Saquist Banned Banned

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    The brain isn't just double redundant...it's over a thousand times redundant. It's ability to reroute is astounding...but there are certain brain functions that can not be doubled up.
     
  11. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Sure it could, the very fact brain neurons don't or do not easily regenerate it a serious flaw, a spinal cord break should be self healing but evolution never cared to make it so because usually injuries to the brain and spine were outright fatal, fuck it would be nice if we could regenerate limps!
     
  12. Saquist Banned Banned

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    I don't see it as a flaw but as a necesity of memory.
     
  13. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    memory could be retained while still replacing dead neurons, its the synaptic connections that must be pruned. Beside if you lose a section of brain no matter what your going to have memory lose, at the very least it would be nice if those sections could grow back and one can relearn to 100% ability again. Beside what does memory function have th do with spinal cord damage or regenerating limbs?
     
  14. Saquist Banned Banned

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  15. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    What?
     
  16. Saquist Banned Banned

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    How could memory be retained while replacing dead neurons?
     
  17. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Depends on how memory is stored, which are not still quite clear on but assuming analog neural networking, one neurons death has only a limited effect on memory as there are redundant pathways and pathways strength is depended not only on synaptic clef numbers but also by numbers of parallel neurons in the pathway, if you kill one neuron in a pathway that say has ten neurons in parallel than you have only reduced the strength of the signal by 10%, a replacement neuron to grow to take up the missing neurons task.

    Also a basic redesign in neural systems would be nice, instead of ionic waves and synaptic signaling a direct electrical system would allow for thought speeds a million times faster! of course a means of electrically isolating each neuron would be needed and doing so in a aquas media would require serious redesigning of the cell structure.
     
  18. Bishadi Banned Banned

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    fixed structures

    see polaritonics

    a structure retains an 'f' value of em and can return the value

    memories are held in fixed structures in the same fashion

    they are not binary 0 and 1 electrical circuitry

    Proof of evolution; knowledge. Knowledge evolves!

    ie... if you were sitting on the moon staring at the earth for the last 100 years you would start to see the earth shooting things above the surface.

    can't see what they are but then you focused a lense and saw that these things called airplanes had grown (evolved) and are crisscrossing just above the surface

    Did Mother Earth evolve?
     
  19. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Not in the narrow sense to which the verb is restricted for the purposes of this discussion. This thread was set up to be strictly about biological evolution, to give the evolution denialists one tiny ghetto where they won't be banned for trolling.
     
  20. Bishadi Banned Banned

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    Simply simply share that a human being evolves from a single celled critter that combined with another and the whole record of evolution can be observed watching a fetus develop (even see the tail). Problem is people take for granted the reality of the whole evolutionary path of a life developing from a single cell.

    Main problem is and there is really only one pure issue; the current math of physics (chemistry) will not support the biological evolution and it is that very adherance to the laws of thermodynamics that enables the creationist to even continue the BS.

    i.e.... if the math was correct, then the kids would be learning evolution without even using the word. (The word was not even in the book Origin of Species)

    so the only way for evolution to be understood correctly is when the minds of the sciences get off their butts and define the association of lipids and especially the bilayer correctly.

    Such that they (lipids) associate based on the energy (resonance) upon the structures. The progression is such that the combining mass reveals the total energy state is greater than the addition of the separate units.

    Much of the sciences of life are so screwed up because they forget to realize the energy upon the mass is the specimen (life) not the structure.

    ie... dead person is still the same mass but what is missing?

    That change in focus will assist any who are really interested in understanding life.
     
  21. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    You're making the common mistake of assuming that the evolution denialists are interested in discovering the truth. They're only looking for evidence to support their own hypothesis. And that's not proper science, even though it's become increasingly common in the halls of corporate science in the USA.
     
  22. Bishadi Banned Banned

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    makes sense but the point being made is 'they' have no choice.

    knowledge evolves and the kids deserve honesty over beliefs.

    if the old are not interested, fine.... they only live so long!

    We as people have a duty and it is not adhering to beliefs and the idiots of oppression; they had their time. It's soon to be over!

    ie.... if the inquisition type atrocities had not occurred we would probably all be vacationing on the moon by now.

    We as a species owe our very lives to the children in that if we are not good enough to contribute knowledge for the progression and furtherance of understanding, then we are all worthless.
     
  23. Saquist Banned Banned

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    I don't know if it was setup for that purpose considering how the thread starts out, however it has seemed to have done some refining. It's become more...objective (If that's possible)


    Believe me I understand how you feel FR but you must realize that the answer , if you really wish to get through to theist, is not by generalizing them, berating, arrogance and strong arm.

    This is the society of science that needs a personality overhaul. People need to see that what you're offering isn't a punch in a gut but reason and light, and knowledge with out judgement.
     
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