Denial of Evolution VII (2015)

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by davewhite04, Jan 5, 2015.

  1. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    This entire thread of evolution is less about science, than it is about history and politics. Some discuss points in natural history sort of like a spear from an ancient battle to prove the historical accuracy of a battle. Others fixate on political agenda and censoring, as though we are defending a tradition. I am one of the few sticking to science. Discussing evolution as science is exception in terms of how the subject is being addressed.

    Read all the posts so far. The majority of the posts look like liberal arts education.One can tell a tree by the fruit it bares. Evolution is not about critical thinking skills but conformity to party themes.

    All areas of history makes use of science to help define and validate data points. One may need to use forensic science to find smoking gun data. The historian is less interested in the nuts and bolts behind the science that validates that data. The historian is more about the bottom line; after data acceptance. Evolution is not any different from history. One does not ponder and discuss the underlying assumptions used by the support science. One blindly accepts the data, if the support science says it is OK. The reason for the divide, is due to the divide between history and science.

    Regardless, it useful to talk about some of the fundamental science behind life and the data of evolution, even if political science and history is the basis of modern evolutionary theory; liberal arts, and this is not part of these subjects.

    Maybe liberal art evolution needs to be moved to humanities or politics and away from science and philosophy since there is little science or logic in the bottom line bias.

    In my last post I showed how water, via the water and oil analogy, can cause a lowering of entropy allowing chaos to be subdued into order. The God of Chaos is an important bottom line theory used by the history of evolution. Lack of critical thinking skills, in liberals arts, makes the fuzzy dice approach appear like life saver. It may be hard to see the significance of chaos being placed in shackles; protein form exact folds. This renders many data assumptions moot. This is why we need a topic called the science of evolution, while moving the history and liberals arts of evolution to another place. The liberal arts of evolution prefers to bully religious people than seek truth or discuss science.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2015
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  3. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Good! I didn't recall that passage. My related point then is, why consider that the theory of abiogenesis is an attack on or insult to religion? Perhaps it is only that the perception that it is so is wrong. In my case, for example, I consider it no attack on religion, no affront to God. It is merely a theory about in what naturalistic way life developed on Earth. And here is the Gouldian object (I recommend reading on Gould's NOMA in case you haven't come across it before): if life developed on Earth using terrestrial materials, in what way could we detect the hand of God in evolution? We are not equipped to detect magic; it is outside us, as we are outside the discussion of theology. They are separate magisteria. No conflict exists, except that which people make for themselves.
     
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  5. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. Miller-Urey experiment. A bunch of RNA generation experiments also.
     
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  7. matthew809 Registered Senior Member

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    "Have scientists seen the emergence of spontaneous information in the lab?"

    That's not what I meant by information. I am referring to the type of information coded and decoded via language. The language of DNA is the foundation of life.

    You can use the alphabet to randomly create a strings of "words" in a book, but that doesn't make it a novel; this is not information. Yet this is equivalent to the experiments you are referring to.
     
  8. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    The next important aspect of water is connected to the life force or what I like to call the entropic force. The entropic force is force that is based on entropy. This unique force is a function of the liquid state and is not specific to water. However, with water being the universal solvent, it has the most situations where the entropic force can be induced in the liquid state.

    The entropic force is the fifth force of nature. It is not based on attraction of matter like gravity, EM and the strong and weak nuclear forces. But rather the entropic force is based on entropy and the physics of the liquid state; unique place used by life. The most common example of this force in action is connected to osmosis and osmotic pressure. Pressure is defined as force/area, so osmotic pressure is also an osmotic force. I prefer the more descriptive term entropic force. Below is a simple diagram of osmotic pressure.

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    The device works based on the potential for entropy to increase; second law. Two chambers are separated by a semi-permeable membrane. Water can freely diffuse through the membrane but solutes like ions and sugar are stuck on one side. The water will want to diffuse in the direction of the higher solute concentration; toward the solution away from pure water. The mixing and mingling of the water with the dissolved solute will increase entropy; follows the second law.

    In the diagram, the entropy potential or the potential to increase entropy will generate a pressure head h. With pressure equal to force/area I call this force, based on entropy, the entropic force. It is historically called the life force, with this terms shrouded in mystery. Entropy is also sort of nebulous to define, but it is a measurable quantity considered part of physical properties; science.

    Once steady state is reached, like the above, the vector force of the pressure head will be maintained, even though water will freely move back and forth across the membrane. This dual movement of the water (force pushes left but water still goes both ways) is unique to liquid state physics. This is observed.

    A glass of water, open to the air, will be under pressure, while also being subject to (surface) tension. This paradox is not possible with gases and solids. The latter are normally used by physics to model particle phenomena. Chemistry is given the liquid state. The randomness within of solid and gas state physics has a logic within liquid state physics, due to mutually exclusive forces able to act at the same time. This is how life overcomes chaos; has a logic.

    The value of the entropic force, to life, is connected to osmosis and reverse osmosis. The switching of pressure and force can be used to regulate the entropy of the water, both in bulk and locally at the nano-scale. This, in term, defines organic equilibria in bulk and locally. Through semi-permeable membranes, the entropic force appears within the water. The binary switch of the hydrogen bonding of water is based on entropy, enthalpy, volume and pressure. The entropic force can be used to change the pressure/volume and therefore the entropy; flip switches and pass information. One can reduce randomness and chaos by using the entropic force to relegate entropy.

    Although beyond this discussion, the entropic force can also be used to run work cycles. Instead of steam pressure to run a piston up and down, we can use entropic force. The water of life is very busy and makes up the energy difference needed for chemical reactions that don't take into account the adhesion of water and the transmission of information.

    Osmosis and the entropic force are colligative properties. This means that the entropy change as water goes through the membrane is only dependent on the number of solute units and not the specific units. In other words, K+, Ca++, Cl- , SO4-2, glucose, are all treated the same by the water, because entropy is not dependent of the EM force. Water deals with the specific charge and moiety at the EM level differently with another layer of interaction. Water is very busy.
     
  9. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    The DNA contains information in a very compact form. The proteins that come from the tRNA that come from information on the DNA, are also a type of information; original information is translated into material information. The binary information of the DNA is translated into material information.

    An analogy is the picture of the Grand Canyon is a raw source of information. We can convert this to a JPEG that is stored in the hard drive. This is also information, but this is a binary and not light reflection. Once you get any protein, you have information. You may not have a JPEG binary on the DNA; parallel information.

    If you look deeper, each small grouping of binaries or base pairs on the DNA, will code for specific amino acids for a protein. That means that each amino acid is also a picture analogy of the information, that is connected to a DNA JPEG. In fact, some tRNA sequences are not as specific, but can be used for a number of amino acids. The DNA information is not as accurate as the amino acid picture; the specific amino acid. This has to do with data compression and data loss. The cell body needs to translate the compressed data, and will offer a more accurate data version; raw picture data.

    If we take a protein that has been be made from the DNA, the folding of the protein into its exact fold is not coded on the DNA. This folding happens in the field. It is implied by the amino acid sequence of the picture as it interacts with water, but this much information is not in the JPEG; per se. The DNA information is not the highest version of information, but it has loss. It is a space saving compression. This is why I always maintain the cell body was the real brains of the cell; it has the best lossless data. During cell cycles each cell gets DNA data but also raw cell body data; raw material data for decompression.

    This suggests the binary data in the DNA came/comes secondary from the raw material data. It represents space saving compression with loss.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2015
  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    That is true of gases, but not of solids. Liquids AND SOLIDS are cohesive - have surfaces where there are interior molecules pulling on the surface molecules only towards the interior. We call that net inwards force, per unit area, surface tension.

    This BTW, I think, may explain part of why "cold fusion" seem to produce "anomalous heat." They spend a great deal of energy grinding their metal powder to sub micron particles that have huge surface to volume ratios. That means they create a large amount of surface stored energy, which can be released as heat it these tiny particle fuse into larger ones. Again solids do have surface tension and it is like a spring under tension, storing energy. Or as you observed, the interior, like a 3D spring is compressed by the surface tension forces.

    BTW, except for this error, your post 945 is nice presentation, but in post 946, you are back to inventing non-sense at the end, with some facts mixed in earlier.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2015
  11. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    You are blessed with a kind heart James R, never thought i'd say that.
     
  12. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    I don't.
     
  13. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. "Spontaneous" chemical reactions can be done at home, too, such as mixing vinegar and baking soda.


    That is not a meaningful or correct definition of DNA. Try referring to a biology text.

    By that definition every stable molecule contains information. But so what?
     
  14. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    So why do you think it threatens religion? You said above that it was constructed as an attack on God.
     
  15. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Abiogenesis of RNA is the starting point of preserved, transmissible information whether it codes for anything or not. Having sense come of that information is another step, but not as big a step as RNA abiogenesis, surely.
     
  16. synthesizer-patel Sweep the leg Johnny! Valued Senior Member

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    DNA isn't encoded or decoded via language - it's a molecule - and is encoded and decoded by molecules - by means of inter and intra molecular forces
    it contains little or nothing analogous with language
     
  17. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    I said it replaces the requirement for God to some people who do not believe. I couldn't care less about religion.
     
  18. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    DNA stores information via the binary defined by two distinct base pairings. The information on the DNA is more analogous to compressed information, that has data loss. It is not raw information without loss. The analogy is taking a HD picture and then compressing it into a JPEG format to it is small enough to e-mail. This saves space and gives a good representation, but it will be grainy if you blow it up.

    For example, the final folding of a protein is not encoded on the DNA. The DNA can give you the sequence of amino acids but after that, all further information gets grainy; compressed JPEG data.

    The raw data lies within the cytoplasm because any protein implies not only the DNA sequence but also the exact folding and dynamics of its function. The DNA has a grainy image of this.
     
  19. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    Then you go and write a post about "history"! you are right about off topic stuff, but that is what makes sciforums special.
     
  20. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    i think everyone in the debate agrees evolution is an amazing expression of divine art? who still denies it?
     
  21. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    I do, naturally.
     
  22. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    you deny it?
     
  23. Kristoffer Giant Hyrax Valued Senior Member

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    Divine? Nope, don't agree.
     

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