Delete the paedophilia threads

Discussion in 'SF Open Government' started by phlogistician, Feb 26, 2009.

?

Should be delete the paedophilia threads?

  1. Yes.

    9 vote(s)
    25.7%
  2. No.

    22 vote(s)
    62.9%
  3. Don't care/Don't want to vote

    4 vote(s)
    11.4%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    31,445
    I have clearly made the case in our debate that pedophilic sexual abuse of children results in significant and potentially long-lasting harms to the child victims.

    You failed refute my arguments, or establish your claim that it does not. In fact, you chickened out of the debate.
     
  2. Guest Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,520
    I'm thinking a little more cosmically ....

    I was thinking a little more toward Hawking.
     
  4. Guest Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    You're quite right. I guess it should be 'the 4 factors' then:
    1- check to see whether the parties involved liked or disliked the interaction
    2- check for consent from both sides
    3- the law
    4- other societal factors


    In a future society that would allow such things, I think that could frequently work well.. ofcourse there are such possibilities as stds and pregnancy to think about.


    Unfortunately, in this society, that's not the case. However, I agree with you that as a general rule, it should be (minors must still be informed that sex can lead to stds and pregnancy; otherwise, a pleasant activity may have unpleasant consequences).


    I agree, with the above caveats that I mentioned. The most important issue, however, is that the younger one of the parties is, the more potential for abuse from the older party; for this reason, I believe that the older party should be licensed to engage in sexual activities with younger parties. As a general rule, I think it's safe to say that the people who are least likely to harm children are the people who raised them and teachers. Parents and teachers already work together. Parents and teachers already teach their children about sexuality, to varying degrees. In my view, in the future, it could simply get to be a more hands on approach, as some parents and teachers have done, at times with positive results, despite all the negative reinforcements for such things in our society.
     
  6. Guest Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    Be that as it may, he believes those myths and probably thinks that what we are talking about are myths

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    .


    Perhaps that's what James was referring to. He muddles things up. I believe that neither you or I have ever advocated that someone who is forced to engage in a sexual act shouldn't be considered a criminal act. The term 'child abuse', in my view, implies this type of thing, and yet frequently includes sexual interactions that do not involve force of any kind. People must begin to differentiate between forced and non forced sexual interactions, as well as sexual interactions that people like vs. sexual interactions that people don't like.
     
  8. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    I did. Right away you start using un-neutral terminology, messing things up. Sexual abuse is generally thought of as something that a person does -not- want. And yet many children have positive sexual interactions, both with other children and adults. You should have used a neutral term such as 'sexual interaction'. Anyway, ancientregime has quoted one of your points, perhaps that is the one you were referring to in the past.


    My work on the 9/11 threads has almost come to a standstill due to all the work I've put into these paedo threads.


    You can't agree that sex between an adult and a 4 year old is always a bad thing for the 4 year old? [/QUOTE]

    If it's an adult male having penetrative sex with a 4 year old female, I may indeed be able to say that it's always bad; I've heard of an online woman state that she first had sexual intercourse with an adult when she was fairly young, by him going in -very- gently, but I think she was around twice that age, 8 or so. The islamic prophet Mohammed first had sex with one of his wives when she was 9 and they say that their relationship was close. I personally don't think that our society will allow any such thing in the forseeable future, however. Unless you're in an islamic country, where I believe you can indeed have sex with a girl who's 9 if she's married to you and the girl doesn't go to court to protest the marriage, the youngest age of consent between adults and minors is 13 (such as in Spain). For this reason, I think that we really should focus on the teen years, as that's more in keeping with what western societies will accept at present...
     
  9. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    Again, your terminology isn't neutral. 'sexual abuse', 'victim'. Unless you switch to neutral terminology and prove that there is always sexual abuse in adult/minor relationships and that the minor is always a victim, you have done nothing more than state your opinion. From what I've seen from your debate posts, as well as here, you don't do this.


    I think it's more that he simply felt as I do; you refuse to play fair, using un-neutral terms right from the get go.
     
  10. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    Hawking who? In any case, I think it's clear that it's definitely debateable as to why cultures that were more liberal in regards to youth sexuality have faded; perhaps the sexually repressive societies that colonized much of the world may have had something to do with it?
     
  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    31,445
    "Hey, little Johnny! Do you want to play a secret game with me? Let's wait until your parents are out of the house and we can be alone. ... Now, remember, Johnny, this is our secret game. It will be lots of fun for both of us, I promise.

    Now, I'll just unzip my pants. Look, Johnny! There's my penis. Isn't it a funny shape? Would you like to touch it? Here, let me put your hand on it. Isn't this a fun game? ..."

    Is the the kind of thing you have in mind, scott3x?

    Does this story excite you?

    Duh.

    Buh-bah! Fail.

    You may be able to, but you're not sure?

    That's because pedophilic abuse of child victims is sexual abuse.

    The reasons why it is always abusive I have given in the Formal Debate thread "Is pedophilia pseudoscience?"

    I provided at least 20 links proving this. Did you read any of them?
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,822
    I think it depends on what the existing social paradigm is for morality and rights. At one time, it was perfectly natural for men to engage in pederasty and the Greeks would have refuted any claim that they were all pedophiles.

    Modern society has a different paradigm and sex between a child and an adult is not considered moral.

    Maybe at some point they will revisit this, as they did homosexuality. But its not going to be in the near future.
     
  13. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    No and no. I have -never- been an advocate of secret games of this nature, although I know that they do happen for various reasons. They happen between children and they happen between adults and children. The most important thing is not whether the game is secret but whether the minor -enjoys- it; and not only in the moment that it happens but as a life event.


    Neither me nor ancientregime have ever advocated for unwanted sexual interactions.


    Failed what?


    Sizes of genitalia and degrees of penetration matter here. Is the man's exceptionally small, is the 4 year old's exceptionally large, how far in does the penetration go. These are only the physical considerations, ofcourse.


    Again with the non neutral terminology. I begin to wonder if we'll ever get very far in this discussion. Abuse, as I have stated previously, denotes unwanted sexual interactions. Again, no one here as far as I know is advocating for this. Therefore, to insist that that's what me and ancientregime are advocating is patently wrong.


    I think you've already summarized why you think so in this post I'm responding to and I've found your reasoning wanting.


    I've read parts of them, yes. Pedophilia: Biosocial Dimensions, in its third chapter, details how studies can and frequently are biased in such a way that they literally refuse to take input that doesn't suit the viewpoint(s) of the researchers. You can currently get a used copy of the book from amazon.com for less then 5 bucks (there's only 5 copies though, and the most expensive is close to what it originally sold for, 80$ or so).

    There are, ofcourse, more widely known studies that have stated that adult/minor relations frequently don't create long term harmful effects on children, such as the Rind Report. Repression of such studies is clear; The Rind Report, initially set to be published in Sexuality and Culture, was finally rejected. In the end, they were published by the APA but when faced with criticism it refused to defend publishing it.
     
  14. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    Yep.


    As a general rule, that is indeed true. Things get somewhat more complicated when we get into the 'child' teens. That is, teens who are under the age of consent. In some countries, such as Spain, this is not an issue as the age of consent is 13.


    Again, I think you're right. The main struggle for the forseeable future will be in the teen department.
     
  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    31,445
    SAM:

    I already addressed that argument in my Formal Debate with ancientregime.
     
  16. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    31,445
    scott3x:

    So, you don't advocate these games, but if they happen you have no particular problem with them, as long as the minor enjoys them.

    Right.

    How many minors do you think enjoy sexual abuse by adults?

    You've both done nothing but advocate for unwanted sexual interactions. The only person who wants pedophilic sexual abuse is the pedophile. The child does not initiate pedophilic abuse.

    Like ancientregime, I think you're so fixated on the physical and on children as sexual objects that I doubt you have the capacity to see children are people at all.

    I assume you don't have any children of your own. I hope you do not.

    ... which all pedophilic actions are. None involve informed consent of the child, for the simple reason that a minor cannot give informed consent.
     
  17. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    As long as the minor enjoys them as a -life- event, not just in the moment.


    By my definition, none.


    I disagree, but feel free to point out where you think we have. Misunderstandings on such emotionally charged issues can certainly occur.


    I have no idea how you define 'pedophilic sexual abuse' or 'pedophilic abuse'. As to sexual interactions, I believe that some minors/children (the legal definition is the same) like some of them and don't like others. From my personal experience in my own youth as well as testimonials I have heard both offline and on, I would argue that the main factor which determines if it's a positive or a negative sexual experience hinges on whether it was a consensual, non coerced interaction or not.


    No, I'm not. The very fact that I mentioned 'these are only the physical considerations' suggests that I think of other aspects as well.


    I couldn't disagree with you more. While many people prefer children to be seen not heard, I have always loved the transparency, humour and openness to various ways of seeing things of children.


    No, I don't yet have any children of my own. I find your judgement that it wouldn't be good to be unfair, but I understand that this issue is one that frequently gets people to jump to conclusions.


    Since I don't know how you're defining pedophilic, I can't really respond to this.


    They certainly can't legally give informed consent, which is why it's generally not a good idea for a minor to engage in illegal sex, if they value the freedom of their partner and in some cases, of themselves. This discussion is focusing on whether atleast some of them can give informed consent regardless of what's in the lawbooks in their particular jurisdiction. On that point, there is growing controversy and I believe I know how it'll work itself out.
     
  18. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    Assuming that you have indeed done this, why not excerpt the relevant portion or atleast link to the post where you have done so?
     
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    31,445
    All the evidence I presented in the Formal Debate says that minors do not enjoy sexual abuse as a life event.

    Then read the Formal Debate thread, where I defined terms in my opening post.

    All pedophilic actions are coerced. Children don't know about sex, so they don't want sex. They don't initiate it. They don't ask for it. They don't want sex with adults. Get it?

    Pedophiles, by the way, commonly report that they love the innocence of children, their openness to experimentation, their trust, their transparency etc. etc. Why? Because these things make them easy to victimise.

    No. This discussion is focussed on whether sexual abuse of children by pedophiles causes harm to the children, in the short and long term.

    RTFD. This is the third time you've asked me to repeat myself for your benefit. Get off your lazy arse and do your own reading. It only requires going to the Formal Debates forum, clicking on a thread title and reading the bloody thing.
     
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,822
    I did not see that point addressed. I'm simply going by the evidence from other mammals such as bonobos, that sex is also used as social bonding. We've changed our ideas of sex [marriage, consent, procreation, childhood] quite dramatically in the last century and it would be naive to overlook the fact that perceptions are greatly affected by moral attitudes. Children are sensitive to such perceptions just as adults are and secrecy, guilt, coercion can be a source of trauma, especially if there is a sense of wrongdoing.

    You can see that in the simple difference in attitudes that children have towards sex in different societies.
     
  21. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    31,445
    One of the articles I linked in the debate discussed that very issue, SAM. The conclusion of the (academic, expert) authors is that societal perceptions causing trauma following child abuse is at best a second-order effect that can add to the primary trauma of the abuse itself.
     
  22. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,822
    I'd like to see how they assessed this.

    Do we assume then that all bonobo children suffer from trauma?
     
  23. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    31,445
    How old are bonobos before they engage in sexual activity with adults?

    (At what age is a bonobo considered an "adult", anyway?)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page