Definition of religion

Discussion in 'Linguistics' started by S.A.M., Nov 30, 2008.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    They are, because if, another time I do not "see" the pellet and find no DNA, what does it mean? [that has also happened]
     
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  3. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    It means simply that the absence of a pellet does not imply the presence of DNA. Which is fine. Your hypothesis was that the absence of a pellet does not imply the absence of DNA, and so an additional test is necessary to determine the presence or absence of the DNA.
     
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  5. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I'd say it means you'll "look" harder and perhaps think of some new ways of "looking" using other instruments. And if you still don't find it, then you'll revise your hypothesis and run a lot more tests to figure out what's going on.
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    No my hypothesis was not that the pellet was absent, simply that even though there was no evidence it was present, that did not mean it was absent.
     
  8. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Fraggle
    Here's a good straight forward one by J. Weizenbaum
    http://www.rationalvedanta.net/node/83

    One myth in particular states that if, say, by experiment a scientific theory is confronted in reality with a single contradiction, one piece of discontinuing evidence, then that theory is automatically set aside and a new theory that takes the contradiction into account is adopted. This is not the way science actually works.

    He draws a parallel between heliocentric models of the universe and current evolving models of human awareness based on computers
    fact, eh?
    And metaphor begins and ends precisely where? (please don't say "reality" unless you are prepared to unpack the term)
    so does that make science religious too?
    Using computers as a metaphor for the human mind?
     
  9. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Unfortunately they get philosophical about it .....
    Dr. Frank Salter (Max Planck Institute, Germany)

    ..... scientific knowledge in many areas is so well-developed that acceptance of it as a starting point can be taken as a criterion of rationality. Accordingly, we can treat a denial of the factual authority of the natural sciences as a whole as a case of empirical irrationality, the denial of well-verified facts.

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    uke:
     
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    You did not, at any time, according to your account and verified by your searching behavior, assume it was there or not there. Had you assumed, you would not have checked.
    Sounds reasonable. Are you by chance operating on the assumption that the presence or absence of the DNA was unobservable, because you couldn't see it?
    SAM was posting about reductionism, you about the sociological status of scientifically established factual knowledge.
    Assumptions made are often of things that nto only could have been, but should have been, tested, in science.

    SAM demonstrated that she was making no assumptions, by testing in an attempt to determine the facts.
     
  11. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    I was using the term "assumption" in the specific sense that S.A.M. defined above, in the Asimov quote, which included an "untestability" condition. In the general sense of the term you are, of course, correct.
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    You generally precede with an assumption before an act. That is the definition of assumption in the scientific context

    In logic, more specifically in the context of natural deduction systems, an assumption is made in the expectation that it will be discharged in due course via a separate argument.


    The invisible pellet is a separate argument from the subsequent test for DNA.
     
  13. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Yeah right. In American "corporate science." That does not deserve to be called "science" and those people do not deserve to be called "scientists." Their job is to find evidence to support a commercially lucrative hypothesis and ignore evidence to the contrary. Science has become so commercialized that for many science graduates those are the only jobs available and my heart goes out to them, but it's still not proper science and they should all be ashamed of themselves.
    Ah, forgive me for lapsing into layman's language. Linguistics is one of the softest of the soft sciences and moderating this board doesn't keep me in practice. There are no "facts" in science, only theories that have been proven true beyond a reasonable doubt. And since psychology is arguably an even softer science than linguistics, we certainly can't call any of Jung's theories "facts" with a straight face.
    Metaphor is merely a rhetorical device for economically describing a subject by equating it with a metaphorical object, implicitly ascribing properties of the object to the subject. The object may or may not be real so it's not necessary to define "reality." Metaphor focuses our attention on perhaps hitherto unrecognized properties of the subject, thereby (hopefully) facilitating, organizing and advancing the discussion of it.

    When we say that the natural universe is the creation of a supernatural being, we're pointing out that the natural universe is orderly but occasionally surprises us, just as an artifact might, and warning each other that life is not always fair. The problem arises when people don't understand the rhetorical device and actually believe that there is a supernatural creator.
    No. All religion is metaphor but not all metaphor is religion. Happy now?

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    You've lost me. What's the problem? Other than the Linguistics Moderator's standing complaint that scientists carelessly toss around the word "fact." These are not "well verified facts." They are "theories that have been proven true beyond a reasonable doubt." We all know (or should know) that, statistically, one of those theories will be proven wrong every now and then, but it happens so rarely that it does not bring the canon of science down in a crash.

    People, even laymen, are welcome to ponder the impact of the statistical probability that one theory will be falsified during their lifetime. But they should also be numerate enough to understand that to point their finger at any one theory and say, "That's the one!" is an unreasonable doubt. That is a textbook case of an extraordinary assertion, which we are obliged to treat with respect only if it is accompanied by extraordinary evidence.

    In everyday affairs it is irrational to dissipate energy on such infinitesimal probabilities. (Yeah I used another word wrong. Fifty lashes.) It's as irrational as it would be to never go outdoors because of the almost immeasurably small probability of being hit by a meteor. (I couldn't bring myself to say "infinitesimal" again.)

    The scientific method is the embodiment of reason and science is the Jewel of the Enlightenment, on the short list of civilization's greatest achievements.

    People who deny science are, indeed, irredeemable retards. It should be a test for public office and perhaps even parenthood. Just kidding (albeit with a sigh of regret) about the second but not the first.
     
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Not if it is required to be untestable.

    I think you are confusing the mathematical use of the word with its use in a description with a scientific context. The other possibility is that you are confusing levels of argument in a scientific investigation - of course there are untestable assumptions in a scientific investigation (that logic is valid, for example) but they are pretty far away from the scene of investigation.

    And furthermore, irrelevant. Whatever assumptions you made had nothing to do with any untestable factors, as there were none - every factor in your chain of reasoning was testable, including the efficacy of the methods of investigation.

    Likewise, everything you were dealing with was observable.

    SAM is not using the word in that way.
     
  15. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Fraggle

    contextualizing religious claims by calling upon archetypes strikes me as a faith based claim ... although I realize that many in the field of jungian influenced psychology may beg to differ

    so you mean things like centimetres and other empirical tools are metaphors?
    If not, why?


    Jung really floats your boat, eh?

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    There is never only one extreme. There are always two.
    One is to reject empirical claims wholesale (for reasons you outline)
    The other is to accept is as monopolizing all knowledge based claims (since not even this claim can be empirically established)

    The problem with empiricism is that it has at its foundations the senses, and the senses are by nature fallible and limited. The nature of consciousness, the origins of the universe, the intrinsic qualities of matter or the further an event is lodged in history - the further empiricism moves into these fields, the further it loses its credibility.
     
  16. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    It's status is tentative as you have not yet falsified the hypothesis.
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Since when is an assumption defined as testable or not?
    Except the invisible pellet. The assumption was not about the DNA but whether a pellet was absent or invisible. It had nothing to do with the protocol, the procedure and the later test for DNA. The pellet by itself being or not being present is an assumption.

    e.g. there could have been an invisible pellet and yet no plasmid DNA
    there could be an invisible pellet and not enough DNA to be tested
    there could be a visible pellet and no DNA
    there could be a visible pellet with DNA
    there could be no pellet

    The assumption you are making is that pellet [invisible or not] equals DNA.

    And being falsified makes it a not so tentative hypothesis? Being true or false has nothing to do with the statement of a hypothesis.
     
  18. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    I would say that your reading comprehension skills were poor, but since it's you, Sam, clearly your post represents your intellectual dishonesty, and nothing more.
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps you do not know that every null hypothesis has an alternative hypothesis. I suppose its common for people outside the field to think they know more than people in the field.
     
  20. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Q: Enough with the personal insults. This is my board, I interpret and enforce the rules, and I say "Please dial it back." You've seen me in action enough to know that I'm not being selective.

    If you're a student of language, you should be able to use your native language more effectively than this.

    Yeah yeah, we all get angry and we all break the rules occasionally. Just cut this one off here.
     
  21. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Fair enough, but when are you going to deal with Sams intellectual dishonesty and trolling?
     
  22. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I know. If you'd read my posts, you'd see that the entire purpose was to try to convince S.A.M. to adhere to the definition that she proposed.
     
  23. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Well, the only definition that you have offered is:

     

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